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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Re: Six parameters (Dyno)

Our understanding is that the Haldex is disengaged on any braking activity. The corner entry behavior is related to power application, not braking, of course.

It's not clear if there is a special case for AWD behavior in engine braking situations.

OBTW there isn't really a center diff. The Haldex clutches perform a similar function though.

Tom.
 
Re: Six parameters (tmtalpey)

Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »
It's not clear if there is a special case for AWD behavior in engine braking situations.
Yeah, I guess that's the special case we're pondering. I'm thinking that you could engage the Haldex during engine braking to help turn-in, just like the quote suggests. ABS/braking considerations override this.

As an aside, there are many AWD cars out there with a "dumb" mechanical center diff and ABS.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Re: Six parameters (Dyno)

Quote, originally posted by Dyno »
As an aside, there are many AWD cars out there with a "dumb" mechanical center diff and ABS.
(also aside) Absolutely. I think personally that the reason the Haldex disengages is because it's implemented by clutches. Not much reason to waste them against the brakes.

For a real aside, do you think maybe the ECU cuts torque under full ABS, in case the clutch is out? Makes sense to me, instead of asking the fronts to stop both the car and the engine.

Tom.
 
Re: Six parameters (tmtalpey)

Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »

(also aside) Absolutely. I think personally that the reason the Haldex disengages is because it's implemented by clutches. Not much reason to waste them against the brakes.

For a real aside, do you think maybe the ECU cuts torque under full ABS, in case the clutch is out? Makes sense to me, instead of asking the fronts to stop both the car and the engine.

Tom.

I think the reason Haldex disengages during braking is to decouple the actions of the rear brakes from the front wheels. Otherwise, inputs to the rear wheels would be "felt" by the front wheels (and vice-versa). The Haldex must be open to permit independent wheel-by-wheel operation of ABS. That's why I was pondering the situation on a car with mechanical center diff and ABS (you don't have this luxury).

Regarding the throttle and ABS... Nomally, even in max braking situations the engine is acting to assist the brakes. It is creating "negative torque", being motored by the driveshaft. The ECU can't command more negative torque than you're already getting at 0% throttle.

(slight tangent)
Remember the "unintended acceleration" fiasco with Audi? I own an Audi. I discovered that if you simultaneously floor the accelerator and press the brake, the engine drops to idle after a brief delay. I figured it was a result of that scandal. The delay is only long enough to permit heel-and-toe downshifts.

Wonder if the Volvo has this feature?
 
Re: Six parameters (Dyno)

Quote, originally posted by Dyno »
(slight tangent)
Remember the "unintended acceleration" fiasco with Audi? I own an Audi. I discovered that if you simultaneously floor the accelerator and press the brake, the engine drops to idle after a brief delay. I figured it was a result of that scandal. The delay is only long enough to permit heel-and-toe downshifts.

My 2000 VW is the same and it makes it tough to 2-foot it to dry wet brakes.
 
Re: Six parameters (JimLill)

Do you Track Masters find it strange that Volvo calibrated the R to oversteer on corner entry and understeer on corner exit? I haven't tracked my R, but I think this behaviour would be very spooky.

Don't you find the pucker factor to be large as you turn in at high speed?

If anything, I think a car should understeer slightly on entry (the most unstable, scary part of a turn) and oversteer slightly on exit (the most stable portion, easily adjusted by a brief lift).

The chart agrees with my understanding of how the system is set up and calibrated, but I can't figure out why they'd want it to behave that way.

Image
 
Re: Six parameters (Dyno)

I'm no Bondurant graduate but it seems oversteer on exit of a high speed turn would be very scary, as this is when one would begin to accelerate again, foot off the brake. Think of screaming into a turn at the adhesion limit and then having to deal with the rear end coming around, a-la-911. I do agree that understeer on entry is better than oversteer, but Neutural balance is what one is after, yes?
 
Re: Six parameters (monkey)

Quote, originally posted by monkey »
Think of screaming into a turn at the adhesion limit and then having to deal with the rear end coming around, a-la-911. I do agree that understeer on entry is better than oversteer, but Neutural balance is what one is after, yes?
Actually 911 will OVERSTEER on braking going into a turn (older models) The power on OUT of a turn is controlable.
You try to trail brake an older 911 on turn and you will find yourself going the other way so fast your head will spin
JRL
 
Re: Six parameters (JRL)

Quote, originally posted by JRL »

Actually 911 will OVERSTEER on braking going into a turn (older models) The power on OUT of a turn is controlable.
You try to trail brake an older 911 on turn and you will find yourself going the other way so fast your head will spin
JRL
Maybe someone at Volvo said "I want the R to handle like a classic sports car."
 
Re: Six parameters (Dyno)

We need to get a read from BigDog or SleepR who have spent the most time on a track with the R.

I have SkipBarber school late April then TM@WG on 5/7-8 so may be more qualified to venture an opinion myself.
 
Re: Six parameters (JRL)

Quote, originally posted by JRL »

Actually 911 will OVERSTEER on braking going into a turn (older models) The power on OUT of a turn is controlable.
You try to trail brake an older 911 on turn and you will find yourself going the other way so fast your head will spin
JRL

Yeah, the last thing you want to do in the 911 if the tail is wide in a corner is lift the throttle.
Image
The 914 was the same way. When you lift, weight transfers to the front, the geometry of the rear trailing arms moves toward toe out and less negative camber, and you're spinning before you know what happened. Many years ago on an Atlanta back road in a 914 2.0, I had the "pleasure" of first hand discovery of trailing throttle oversteer. When the car stopped spinning, the front of the car was pointed 90 degrees to the direction of travel, and just out my driver's side window about 15 feet away was a telephone pole. Fortunately, as a 17 year old kid, I learned many lessons from that day.
 
Re: Six parameters (ChuckB)

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »


Yeah, the last thing you want to do in the 911 if the tail is wide in a corner is lift the throttle.
Image
The 914 was the same way. When you lift, weight transfers to the front, the geometry of the rear trailing arms moves toward toe out and less negative camber, and you're spinning before you know what happened. Many years ago on an Atlanta back road in a 914 2.0, I had the "pleasure" of first hand discovery of trailing throttle oversteer. When the car stopped spinning, the front of the car was pointed 90 degrees to the direction of travel, and just out my driver's side window about 15 feet away was a telephone pole. Fortunately, as a 17 year old kid, I learned many lessons from that day.

I had a 914, still have it but not roadworthy anymore, and one day I was pushing it pretty hard.
As I left from a traffic light entering a very wide crossing where I had to make a left turn I thought it would be nice to make a nice drift accross the crossing..
I floored the throttle, the rear stepped out to a point where I had it at the so called full opposite lock but the speed at which rear came out was simply to high so I lifted throttle....
Boy oh boy where did that steering wheel go.. It was spinning like a fan in front of me. The rear tires grabbed and the rear just jumped full lock to the other side. I still do not know what I did to correct the car but somehow I grabbed the steering wheel and applied some throttle during this action at which point the car became stable again... I think I must have been the first and probably the only person making some sort of "negative" drift in a corner...
Image

All happened within a fraction of a second. A nice bite but something I do not want to experience again.
 
Re: Six parameters (monkey)

Quote, originally posted by monkey »
I'm no Bondurant graduate but it seems oversteer on exit of a high speed turn would be very scary, as this is when one would begin to accelerate again, foot off the brake. Think of screaming into a turn at the adhesion limit and then having to deal with the rear end coming around, a-la-911. I do agree that understeer on entry is better than oversteer, but Neutural balance is what one is after, yes?

The turn-in is definitely scary initially. I'm so used to "normal" RWD BMW's on the track that this behavior of the R is "out there" in never-never land. However, after you get some seat time (about the 4th lap for me at the VIR Patriot course
Image
), you begin to understand that the rotation you get on turn-in is not going to continue. The initial feeling is that the tail will be gone long before you get to the apex. After some time, you'll see that you can use this rotation to your advantage and touch the apex just right transitioning to WOT resulting in some push (ok, a LOT of push) leaving the corner. You can modulate the power some on track out to control car placement -- more throttle, more push if you have room, but the R is dramatically insensitive to the throttle compared to a RWD BMW.

So it becomes a matter of accepting the R behavior and working to maximize your ability to extract the last ounce of performance from the chassis as opposed to comparing it in your head to whatever you would prefer it to behave like (ala BMW). In any event, the transition on turn-in definitely takes some getting used to, but the tail really never gets totally loose (at least not yet). I found that I was apexing slightly later than "normal" to help with handling the understeer on track out. The Brembos worked nicely diving deep into the corner before turn-in. BTW, all these comments are in relation to driving in Advanced mode with DSTC fully disabled.
 
Re: Six parameters (ChuckB)

Although they are famous for it, 911's are not the only cars with this characteristic.

When I went through Skippy school, any sort of lift after the apex earned you a crisp WHACK! on the helmet from the instructor's walkie talkie whip antenna. My ears still ring from it. What fun!
 
Re: Six parameters (ChuckB)

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »
after you get some seat time (about the 4th lap for me at the VIR Patriot course
Image
), you begin to understand that the rotation you get on turn-in is not going to continue. The initial feeling is that the tail will be gone long before you get to the apex.

That kinda makes the hairs on my neck stand up.

Sorry if this gets a little geeky, but there may be a little insight I can add here. I have worked with a couple of vehicle dynamics modeling programs. One thing I noticed when looking at front vs. rear slip angles is that front slip angle can be built up very quickly. Just crank on the steering wheel! The rear, however starts from zero and ramps up at some rate. Once it starts increasing, there's normally not a lot to stop it (unlike the front, where you can just unwind the steering wheel). Even a "loose" car starts the turn with a push. The transition to oversteer occurs over time. This can translate to "push on entry, loose on exit."

My point is that you instinctively get a feel for this. It's "natural" car behavior. The R seems to create and arrest slip angles in an artificial way. I can see how you'd have to force yourself to trust the car (the computer?) at the track.
 
Re: Six parameters (Dyno)

Quote, originally posted by Dyno »


My point is that you instinctively get a feel for this. It's "natural" car behavior. The R seems to create and arrest slip angles in an artificial way. I can see how you'd have to force yourself to trust the car (the computer?) at the track.

This is the whole problem with the R. It is an unnatural car when pushed.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Re: Six parameters (ChuckB)

So I've been through a little Skippy though I definitely won't call myself an expert.

I don't understand why some say that oversteer on entry isn't desirable. Hanging out the tail gets the turn in quicker. Which allows a later apex, and sooner back on the throttle.

And, sooner back on the throttle means a little understeer on exit is good - since it's more forgiving of same.

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »
I found that I was apexing slightly later than "normal" to help with handling the understeer on track out.

My point, right? Late apex is faster, and harder to do as the speed increases. Perhaps the R is not like other cars, which is an adjustment, but isn't its behavior actually what the driver is aiming for?

Tom.
 
Re: Six parameters (ChuckB)

Quote, originally posted by ChuckB »
all these comments are in relation to driving in Advanced mode with DSTC fully disabled.

Is there any Jekyll / Hyde to this....

Most people are probably never getting further than ADV / Reduced DSTC in most of their driving...

Does full DSTC off change it much?
 
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