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Subaru WRX vs. Volvo S60, V60, V60CC, and XC60

22K views 51 replies 25 participants last post by  kpaxv60  
#1 · (Edited)
I have been fortunate enough over the years to have had several cars, a majority of which have been performance based cars. In the latest years I have migrated toward Volvos for reasons probably apparent to the enthusiasts here. To meet the needs of a family though, I have gotten away from performance oriented cars somewhat, the notable exception being the XC60 T6 R-Design my wife now drives, and the 2004 V70R I had for a time, both of which are a pretty good compromise of family utility and fun, especially the XC60RD T6 :D.

As my kids have graduated and begun to pursue their passions, I have found myself considering returning toward the performance end of the spectrum, maybe to even do a little auto crossing for fun. Since I like AWD platforms, one of the alternatives I have been considering has been the Subaru WRX or WRX STI. I considered the BRZ, but ruled it out as it's a little down on power, and is RWD.

But as I have considered the WRX, I have found that several of the current Volvo models offer interesting, if not compelling alternatives.

My preference, for budgetary reasons, is to keep both the initial cost low by buying a used car, and to keep costs for modifications as low as possible. I'd also like to retain as much utility as possible since this is my daily driver.

I have noticed that quite a few people here also own Subarus, or have come here from Subarus. So I thought it might be interesting to post a thread on the subject here to: get objective feedback on the subject from Subaru owners; to benefit from those who have similar priorities to mine and may have even gone through the same thought process; and to also make these observations available to others on the web that might be searching for WRX alternatives.

Observations on what I see as relative strengths, and weaknesses of the WRX:
  • First and foremost would be the exciting driving experience. This car's linage is that of world rally racing. So the focus of this car is on driving primarily, with many other considerations secondary. It is compact and maneuverable with a short turning radius.
  • Following this focus is the ready availability, and affordability, of aftermarket parts for tuning these cars. The down side of this is that it is rare to find a WRX that is not already modified, often heavily so, and often rode hard and put up wet.
  • These cars retain their value very well, because they are much in demand. A downside if buying used because the used prices approach those of new models. Asking prices often reflect the owners desire to try to minimize loss on modifications.
  • Though very much a drivers car, they retain their functionality as useful and versatile daily drivers.
  • The WRX is relatively simple in its construction, and therefore relatively ease to work on and maintain.

Observations on Volvo alternatives: I see several viable alternatives to the WRX within the Volvo line, to some degree on a progression dependent on: how much ground clearance you need, and how much room and storage you need. The S60 begins with a size and stance most similar to the WRX, the V60 adds ground clearance and room, the V60CC more clearance, with the XC60 next in the clearance and room continuum. Of course, the center of gravity gets progressively higher as the room increases, so the further away from the S60 you move, the more driving performance you trade off.

Advantages/disadvantages of these Volvo platforms:

  • In the AWD versions, and especially the T6 drivetrain variants, the power and handling of the S60 platform is arguably competitive, with slight handling advantage perhaps to the WRX.
  • The Volvo weighs about 300 lbs. more than the WRX, and therefore weight associated disadvantages in handling, braking, etc are present. The turning radius is slightly larger by about three feet in the Volvo.
  • The Volvos are more complex especially in regard to their proprietary computer systems, therefore more difficult to modify in many cases. However the same systems often offer opportunity for tuning, if the tuner can absorb the cost of admission.
  • Vehicles tuned and modified by Polestar, KPAX, Heico, IPD, Viva and others, dependent on how much you want to invest, and how many engineering tradeoffs you are willing to absorb, are definitely competitive and comparable to the WRX platform.
  • The initial depreciation on the Volvos is higher, though if buying used, is an advantage since you get more content per dollar.
  • Though safety ratings are very similar with the WRX, I believe the safety edge definitely goes to Volvo. I have a friend who oversees repair QC for a major insurance company, sees dozens of wrecked cars every day, and he tells me the Volvo is definitely the safest, with Subaru close behind. Meeting or beating the tests is one thing; seeing the actual field results of a variety of wrecks is another.
  • The Volvo vehicles are probably far more plentiful and easier to find, generally better cared for and in unmodified condition.
  • The Volvo platform is decidedly more understated, and refined overall.

So overall, my conclusion is that the Volvo platforms make a compelling case as a potential alternative to the WRX for many reasons, for me personally with my priorities, especially if modified with some of the Polestar, KPAX, Heico, IPD, Elevate, Viva, bits and pieces. My intuition tells me that they are safer, competitive, and have overall more content, and perhaps long-term value than the Subaru, though with a few disadvantages. The unknowns for me are how the relative reliability stacks up for each, especially if modded. And ultimately whether a modded Volvo would yield the same driving enjoyment inherent in the WRX.

Any thoughts, perspectives, experience and opinions are welcome. I reserve the inalienable right to be wrong.

Thanks for any input.
 
#2 ·
I'm my case I went from a direct competitor to the WRX, a mazdaspeed 3, to a v60CC. For me the choice was easy. Unlike you my family is young (4yo and 6yo kids) And I spend enough time on forest service roads to justify the increased ground clearance. When shopping around I found the Subaru Outback to be the direct competition to the V60cc. No my v60 isn't as peppy as my Mazda, and it has more body roll than my Mazda did, but since a family car that can tackle minimally maintained dirt roads was a requirement the v60cc was the obvious answer. The xc60 felt too suv-ish for me and was disqualified.

With that being said, if I was in your boat and the family was all moving out I'd be back in a mazdaspeed 3 in a heaetbeat.
 
#3 ·
Not sure what your budget is but have you test driven the S/V 60 RD yet?

Great bang for the buck as a used car. It will be a lot more luxurious than a Subaru and seems to tick all of the boxes you mentioned.
 
#4 ·
I'm 32 years old with two young children, and as a daily driver, the WRX felt a little too "boy racerish" for my liking.

Perhaps it's the demographic that drives them and the STI were I live (read: obnoxious dudes in their early 20s wearing Monster energy Drink hats) but though I briefly considered it in my search for a second family car, I ultimately declined. That being said, if I was looking for a purpose built rally/auto cross platform I'd go with it over modern Volvos in a second. They are (generally) cheaper cars to mod, buy, and fix and have a ton of aggressive available power, and MOST importantly, they come with a 3rd pedal!

For about the price of a well-equipped Subaru Outback I was able to find a V60 R-Design Platinum with a 7yr/100k cpo warranty. It's a hell of a fun car one week in, and I love that it's a total sleeper as far as its real capabilities are concerned. The turbo dad wagon! VERY happy I went with this over a Subaru of any sort. More refined, more mature, less ubiquitous FTW!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#5 ·
Came from a 2014 WRX to an S60 T5 AWD. More about my history, I've autox'd the WRX, have had quite a few sport bikes that I've tracked, so I'm certainly a performance enthusiast. Performance wise an S60 will never feel like a WRX, the WRX is lighter, tighter, and more purpose built. The R-Design S60 may be as fast in acceleration as a WRX/STI, but will never feel as sporting, plus no manual gearbox in the Volvos. The WRX was a pain to deal with daily. Everyone and their mother wants to race you, thinks your some punk kid with daddy's money, drove my wife nuts. The new 2015+ WRX is more refined, but is no volvo. Tons more tech available in the Volvo's. I'm 30 with one kid and am still a kid at heart, but the only way I will own a WRX/STI again is as a weekend/autox/track car not a daily driver. The S60 is a much better blend of performance/comfort/rear world usability. Bonus is you can stay under the radar.

Side note my wife has a 2015 328i x-drive, I like the driving feel of her car better than the volvo, but prefer the volvo interior and refinement.

If I were to go look at cars to buy today, it would be down to two models. 2016/17 S60 R-design or 2016 BMW 340i RWD in Manual.

Sorry for the brain dump clutter above.
 
#6 ·
Synesis: If your set on AWD maybe a Golf "R", Audi S4, etc. Or are you against VW with all the scandal? Tons of aftermarket support also vs VERY little for Volvo's. My $.02.
 
#8 ·
Perfect topic!

I have a long Subaru background. We've had an 07 Tribeca, 08 Impreza Outback Sport and 11 Legacy 3.6R. I really love the brand and its abilities. Tribeca was a good SUV, but lacked power and had a funky issue constantly gear searching when asking for power. The OBS was fun, easy to mod, but lacked power. In comes the 3.6R. Loved the power and smoothness of the ride, but didn't handle great, I had all sorts of recalls and issues with the dreaded vibration issue and we don't have kids yet, so the back seat was never used. Just too much car for us. But all handled inclement weather perfectly.

Wife decided to pick up an S60 T6 in 2011 when the new model arrived. Fully decked out with nearly every option including the Tech package. While I still had the 3.6R, I just really enjoyed driving the S60. Perfect power, tons of tech/ safety and just fit me better in the driver's seat. 36,000 miles later in the 3.6R, I got restless and just wanted to drive the S60.

Wife also decided she hated driving sedans again. Fine with me since I wanted to keep the S60. Back to Volvo and bought an XC60 T6 w/ Polestar. She loves the power and sitting up high again.

So here I am with the S60 w/ 47k on the clock. Nothing wrong with the car, no major issues and it's still fun to drive... and officially paid off. I've been trolling looking for used RD V60's, but they are fairly difficult to find. Although I am in no rush to buy another car... no payments is nice. What I always do is look for the next car as I'm a big believer in shopping for cars when you don't need them. If you wait too long until you actually need a car, you put yourself in a bad situation.

So back to Subarus... I've always wanted a WRX and now they bring in a CVT. I'm fairly lazy and my wife has no intention on learning manual, so CVT it is. I checked on YouTube etc and the CVT isn't getting bashed as I thought it would have. Since EyeSight is now an option on the Limited trim, it makes it more compelling. Overall a new WRX would still be cheaper than a low mileage used V60 RD. Also in theory, cheaper to fix/ maintain.

I've enjoyed a lot of refinement in the S60 and really nice dealership service experiences. That is hard to walk away from.

So I'm keeping the S60 until something major happens that I don't want to fix.... then I'll have to make a decision.

I've also thought about a BMW 428i Gran Coupe, but those are too expensive even used and I'm really scared of maintenance and long term costs.
 
#9 ·
The aftermarket modifications available for Subaru's vs. Volvo is not even close. Anything and everything you would think of doing is available for WRXs, just how much do you want to spend? Volvo has very limited choices to be honest. But things are starting to develop here in that area.

Also, the Subaru all wheel drive system (especially on the STI) is vastly superior to anything Volvo has available (the Polestar isn't bad). The boxer motor can be a little quirky to work on, but if you are used to wrenching it ain't bad.

Subaru's are very safe as you noted (I know first hand). And WRX's have insane resale value. The one big knock on them is perceived interior materials, its no luxury car. Volvo is a much more mature, comfortable vehicle, with the best seats I have ever sat in.

I honestly would still be in a Subaru if they had a wagon available in the US that wasn't a lifted wannabe SUV (the Outback). The Levorg with a manual transmission would probably be in my driveway instead of the V60 RD. But having said that, I have absolutely no regrets on my purchase. The V60 is great compromise car for me, fast and comfortable and can haul my stuff. Sometimes I wish I had the Polestar version, but honestly I think the RD is the sweet spot of the lineup. If I wanted more fun, I'll get a second toy car.
 
#15 ·
Also, the Subaru all wheel drive system (especially on the STI) is vastly superior to anything Volvo has available (the Polestar isn't bad).
I would love to see some proof supporting this claim. Volvo's Haldex system is not perfect but it performs admirably. Furthermore, the same system is installed on such cars as the S3, Seat Leon 4, Audi TT, Lamborghini Aventador, Golf R, Range Rover Evoque, etc. (to name a few). Last, Volvo AWD SUVs have won numerous contests especially up in Oregon in the now infamous Mudfest contests...
 
#10 ·
The Subaru's are just not aesthetically pleasing to me.

They have taken on the fad of pointlessly enlarged side body moldings, especially around the wheels.
They also sound like lawnmowers, even with tons of mods and the most awesome turbo mod - they still sound like a lawnmower.

And Subaru drivers are an odd demographic bunch, i see a whole lot of older drivers, and then the teeny boy racer crowd.
As someone else indicated the adult drivers in between this seems like the odd duck to me.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I autocross 1-2 times per month in my T5. I have a blast, and can be somewhat competitive, but you'll probably have more success with a WRX. I've not taken my Volvo to a race track yet, but I'd suspect that they are better setup for a road course than an autocross course. These Volvos are very front heavy, and they really plow. The AWD setup will just increase the understeer. You'll eventually reach a point where you are severely limited by the car. You can't turn off the ABS completely, and I know that my times have suffered as I'm standing on the gas and going nowhere. Not being able to select and stay in a gear is frustrating. If you want a toy, don't buy the Volvo.

I've actually started to look around for a cheapish e30 or e36 to pick up for autocross/track use, you'll have more fun in a rwd car anyhow.

Someone mentioned the AWD system in the Subie being better, that's for sure. You can adjust the differential and subaru is one of the only car companies still doing hydraulic steering (everyone else is electronic to save mpg).
 
#12 ·
I currently have a 2012 Golf R for sale (link is in my sig) that has been replaced by an S60. It's funny, while my kids were young I drove VW hatches. Now, that they're almost out on their own, I've picked up the safer more family friendly Volvo. One of the reasons I made the switch was because I recently moved to a more congested area where driving the R isn't very much fun. The car is easy to live with as a daily but no more fun than any other car when your stuck in traffic.
Compared to the Volvo, the VW has much greater and affordable aftermarket support. Subaru is even better though. Looks wise the Volvo wins but the VW is more mature and stealth next to the Subie.
If budget was a non-issue you could always get a Focus RS. That should be more fun than anyone is allowed to have.:p
 
#13 ·
My $.02. I owned a 2015 Outback 2.5 Limited or premium/w eyesight, whatever the "top" 4cyl model was for about 6months. It was literally the worst car I ever owned. Felt cheap, was noisy, seats were THE WORST in the industry.

I feel the wrx might be a little better than the outback, but not by much.
 
#14 ·
Definitely a good topic. I owned a '08 Subaru Legacy GT(Grown up WRX) for about 8 yrs that I traded in for my V60 Polestar. I loved my Subaru for what it was but it was definitely lacking in a few areas. The Legacy was definitely a step up from the WRX as far as interior but it was still nowhere near on the level of the Volvo's. The Subaru was also at times lacking for power and a good exhaust note. I disagree about the Subaru having a superior AWD system but that could be because I have a P*. My Subaru had a 45/55 bias whereas my P* can go full rear wheel bias. I ran Michelin Super Sports on both and the Volvo has superior traction. As a DD, the Volvo performance cars (R Design and P*(out of your price range)) are better bets but the WRX is better as an AutoX car because of its weight advantage. You have to decide what is most important to you. The Volvo's to me are just much more refined and ultimately a lot more enjoyable with the 6 cylinder. The Subaru turbo 4 is nice but lacks true mid-range power and a good exhaust note without aftermarket parts. These are two areas the Volvo R Design excels. As a side note, the Subaru 6 cylinder is one of the most boring engines I have ever encountered. I nearly fell asleep driving the Legacy 3.0R before getting my car. A 3.0L 6 with only 215ft/lbs of TQ?!?
 
#18 ·
Wow. Fantastic feedback so far. Some random thoughts in response...

I looked at the Mazda products (my daughter is looking at the CX5 and Outback for college) but currently I don't find anything in their line that exciting, and the MazdaSpeed3 was discontinued a few years ago with the advent of the SkyActive engines. Used MS3's are pretty rare that aren't ragged out, and I don't like the torque steer. However, I also considered the S40T5 AWD and C30T5 AWD off of the same platform, as many of the suspension and brake components crossover. But at this point that platform is late in its life cycle for aftermarket support.

I also considered the VW and Audi variants. The emissions scandal isn't so much an issue for me (though it may be an indicator of the top-to-bottom culture of the company), but it certainly is for my daughter. My main concern is that a good friend of mine is a certified VW/Porsche/Audi tech, and he discouraged me from those products due to their maintenance and repair costs. Love the fit, finish, design, and driving experience, but his feedback, that from others like Consumer Reports, consumer reviews on Edmunds make me gun shy of those alternatives.

My budget for this car would be under $30k for the vehicle and mods. So the later V60RD's are a little out of reach for me personally, but I wanted them included in the discussion since they offer an interesting blend of features and advantages.

I especially appreciate the perspective form the Subaru owners. I had also considered the Legacy 3.6 so that comparison is interesting. One issue that comes up with the Subaru's is the issue of head gaskets on certain year engines, and the issue of excessive oil consumption on other engines, mostly the current 2.5, to the point that I am leaning away from the Outback for my daughter for that reason. On the other hand there are threads here on similar consumption issues for various Volvo engines as well. Unfortunately, there is very little data available as far as actual frequency of occurrence, to project how likely this might be an issue for either make.

I drove the S60T6RD with the NuBuck interior a few years ago. Of all the cars I have driven in the past few years, this one really put a smile on my face. So given that remembrance, the though of a tuned S60RD is definitely attractive. But the issue of the spare, or lack of it was significant for me. I have had to replace 4 tires in the last two years to road hazards. And a spare just sitting in the trunk doesn't mesh with my frequent Costco runs, or luggage on trips, as a daily driver. Its almost unbelievable how this spare issue was dealt with in an otherwise wonderful design. Go figure.

The WRX STI demographic is definitely outside mine, though I enjoy connecting with that culture and the perspective it brings to me. The third pedal is a definite advantage when you have the opportunity to use it, but in heavy traffic common around here often an aggravation more often. Love the driver involvement it demands though. Paddle shifters on the RD's to me are not optimal, but a workable compromise. And yes, the volume of aftermarket parts, and relative affordability, for these cars is staggering compared to the Volvo tuners offerings. But the higher expense of modifying the Volvos also reflects how relatively few owners will modify them, compared to the high probability that Subaru owners will. Simple supply and demand. But I particularly appreciate the perspective of Josh_357 having come to the S60from a WRX.

Apparently several others here have either owned or considered the same alternatives I have, for similar reasons. I worried that the topic would be dismissed as comparing apples and oranges. Interesting that there are currently so few alternatives that offer a true driving experience without sacrificing functionality. Volvo seems to be perceptive of this dynamic in the marketplace. Subaru has to a degree. But its a mystery to me why Subaru doesn't expand its STI offerings into other models such as the Legacy and Outback lines, given the success Volvo is having with the R-Design, Polestar, and Heico, and KPAX approaches. I hope some of those who have modified their cars with these product will chime in with their input as well, in comparison to the purpose built nature noted for the WRX STI.
 
#20 ·
I use to own a couple Subarus - 2003 WRX which I put 133,000 miles on, and a 2008 STI which I traded in at 55,000 miles for our 2012 T5. The WRX was probably my favorite car I have ever owned and regret getting rid of her. It was reliable, great in every weather condition, fun to drive (I use to autocross it), and easy to maintain. I kept her stock. The STI was an excellent car as well. I loved the look, especially with the Prodrive wheels I installed. The STI did everything the WRX did, but better. Aside from the seats, it was my 2nd favorite car. I loved the engine; revved quick and sounded great! I mostly miss the Brembo brakes; such great power and feel! Unfortunately, it drank gas way to fast. My 100 mile round-trip commute was not a great use for it. I felt as though I was wasting the car. Traded it in for the Volvo.

The Volvo is a great car. I can not comment on the AWD as ours if FWD, but I haven't had any issues in the snow. The interior is phenomenal. It's a few rungs up the ladder compared to the Subarus. I LOVE the 5 cylinder engine and am very sad Volvo is phasing it out. It made a great commuter for a while, but I longed to have a manual again (both my Subaru's were manuals), so my wife now drives it. It's a shame Volvo doesn't do manuals, as I would have bought another one instead of my current CC.

If you are looking for performance, go Subaru. Looking for luxury, go Volvo.



 
#21 · (Edited)
Having raced my S60 in 2014 and raced a 2015 WRX in 2015 the WRX AWD has open diffs front and rear and isn't HALF as good as the Volvo AWD system. It spins the inside front and inside rear tires easily when unloaded and picks up heavy understeer on corner exit. The midrange torque hit from the subie is substantial like it is in the volvo but the subaru falls flat very rapidly uptop and hardly feels worth reving anywhere near redline where as the volvo pulls stronger to redline (however still not great). As for the rest of the car, The volvo is quieter and way more comfortable to drive. The subaru feels cheap and like it's about 20k cheaper.... oh wait it is $20k cheaper. I liked the Subaru, It ran slightly better autocross times then the volvo but it did have a substantial weight advantage. However lining the two cars up side by side the volvo left the subbie for dead. I liked both cars, but there really is no comparison the Volvo is a much nicer and more refined vehicle.... hence the price difference. But the WRX drives like a Front wheel drive car and hardly feels AWD, the Volvo Behaves like a FWD but feels like it's AWD at least. The STI on the other hand is a different animal and drives like a proper AWD car. Also of note, quite a few WRX's autocrossing have broken diffs and transmissions. Ours didn't but I think that was more luck then anything. I beat the hell out of the volvo that season I ran it and broke NOTHING. No new rattles, the alignment never even moved. The volvo is one tough cookie. You can feel it. The WRX just felt frangile, You hear all kinds of bangs and clanks from it when you drive it hard. I drove it 1600miles home from an event then a few weeks later another 1300 mile trip home and it picked up loads of new rattles and clanks just in that short time period.
 
#24 ·
This is a very pertinent perspective for me from your experience (as is merlot's), since I was considering the WRX, the STI, and an S60 modified in much the way you have.

But your mods bring up another dilemma I face which is trying to find a S60RD in the color I want, basically fully loaded including the NuBuck interior, a difficult search among a pretty rare vehicle population, especially since I would only want a grey, silver, or blue car. Or modifying a T6 which is available in several more colors I like, but have to give up some of the cosmetic elements of the RD. But if I built an S60 similar to what you have done, most all the hardware (brakes, suspension, etc.) that the RD gets you would be changed anyway.

In regard to some of your mods, I have a few questions, if you don't mind...

First the brakes. the best brakes I have ever had on a car were the Brembos on my former V70R. I loved the feel and performance. I notice you have Brembo BBK's with Carbotech pads (I was leaning toward these after research as well). Did you try Carbotechs on the stock, or any other rotors?. Do you like them better than the Brembo pads? Do they have any downsides, such as noise, dusting, life, etc.?

Next is the suspension. How is the Polestar suspension as far as livability as a daily driver. The spring rates are cited as high vs. the RD springs, but Ohlins is very respected. I was considering this versus other spring shock upgrades from Heico, Eibach, Koni, Bilstien etc. I don't want a car that beats me to death day to day for only an occasional opportunity to enjoy ultimate handling, been there done that. I need a livable balance.

Similarly how is the Ferrita/Polestar exhaust combination to live with. I can't stand droning exhaust.

The IPD bar is a given as far as I am concerned.

Did you consider any intercooler upgrade like that offered by Viva? Would the Polestar tune accommodate such a change? I see little downside to a cooler intake charge under all conditions.

Thanks for your input and perspective.
 
#23 ·
Does anyone have experience with the Focus ST? I know it's only FWD, but I hear they handle well, have good power, and decent interiors. They also have Volvo roots (V40 platform) if that matters. I personally like the way they look both inside and out. Now that the Mazda3 is out of production, it seems a good alternative to that, and the GTI. I'd probably prefer a VW GTI over it, but then I've been burned with VW product's poor reliability in the past. The new Focus RS also seems to be a good alternative to the GTI-R, but it's new on the market, so no <$30K used cars for a awhile.

Oh, and I don't believe anyone touched on the Mitsubishi EVO? There are one and two year old low mileage cars for sale out there for less than $30K. Kind of rough in the creature comfort category, but I believe they are considered superior autoX and track cars? A pretty rare little turbo AWD hot rod these days.
 
#26 ·
Oh, and I don't believe anyone touched on the Mitsubishi EVO? There are one and two year old low mileage cars for sale out there for less than $30K. Kind of rough in the creature comfort category, but I believe they are considered superior autoX and track cars? A pretty rare little turbo AWD hot rod these days.
The EVO is a great car...if all you care about is speed and performance. Easier to get power out of the 4G63 motor than the EJ25 Subaru motor. They handle better than the Subaru's by far. But if you think the Subaru interior sucks, the EVO is worse. And they have a very stiff harsh ride. I wanted one but just could not take it as a DD, and ended up with the STI instead.
 
#34 ·
since 2005 I have owned....

lexus gs400... first mack daddy car
lexus gs430.... had to get the new body style to not feel like i was slumming
acura rsx type s..... decided i wanted less of a payment to make a race car but at 6"6" i couldn't really fit in it so....
mazdaspeed 3.... ruined 2 engines modifying it to all hell. i went big turbo before anybody else on the planet and couldn't tune the mfer. grew to hate it but it was a great car at stage 2.
vw gti modified to stage 1... what i drove 90% of the time when the ms3 was under the knife
mb c63 amg.... decided to screw modding forever
98 civic hatch.....changed my mind. i needed a commuter and a project. besides the c63 makes me look/feel like a prick wherever i go
vw golf r modified to stage 1+.... want something more under the radar but still fun. tired of explaining the benz to people.
vw gli modified to stage 1.... needed more space for the kids with the trunk and decided i wanted a dsg for practical purposes.
v60 r design.... power, nice interior, trunk space, awd, auto, understated but not in a blah way

as a 43 yo father of 5 daughters.....the bone stock Volvo is the best compromise of all of them. for 7 months I've been at peace.
 
#35 ·
I love this post. "Tired of explaining the Benz" [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Thumbs up man! At peace is the way to be...
 
#36 · (Edited)
I had some time to look at a new WRX STI Friday in the showroom, while I waited for a key to be made for my XC90 (it's both and Volvo and Subaru dealer). I was impressed by the utility of this car. I am 6' and my son is 6'1". I had the seat adjusted to my comfort, and my son had plenty of room in the back seat directly behind me. We were then surprised when we opened the trunk at how spacious it was. We also noticed that the WRX had a spare tire beneath the floor of the trunk. On the other hand, after adjusting an S60 front seat to my size, the rear seat was very cramped for my son. The S60 either has no spare, or the spare is mounted on top of the trunk floor, taking up a good part of the trunk space. If find it incredible that Subaru was able to easily integrate a spare tire into the design of their smaller car, while a spare in the S60 seems to have been an awkward afterthought, in an otherwise wonderful design. The guy who omitted the spare from the S60 should be relegated in purgatory to having ride a tow truck with AAA to respond to every S60 flat. For a company that stresses safety, personal safety in these situations seems to be of little regard, and Volvo missed the boat. We also noticed that the Subaru safety suite of options such as Eyesight are rapidly approaching the functionality of the Volvo offerings, albeit at a much lower price point. In my opinion, Volvo will need to make their entire safety suite standard on all models if they are going to remain competitive in the market place and continue to be perceived as the safety leader. So of these two cars, from the standpoint of utility and functionality, the WRX seems to have a definite edge.

The next morning on Saturday I attended a local Cars and Coffee event in Cool Springs. Each Saturday cars of all kinds gather, but on the first Saturday of the month, exotics, rare, antique, and high-end cars attend. It's unfortunately rare to see Volvos represented at these shows but I did talk to a gentleman with a wonderful original '64 Volvo. I then wandered about, and realized or perhaps remembered, how much I enjoy design, and that elegant simplicity is perhaps the most difficult design element to achieve. I enjoyed looking at hotrods that focused on doing as much as possible with as elegantly few parts as possible, and enjoyed also seeing the executions of similarly elegant designs in many of the antique cars, especially well-done in many of the exotics. One thing that has always drawn me to strongly to Volvo is the timeless elegance of their Scandinavian designs. After this realization, I wondered if I wouldn't be happier with a modified Volvo rather than a WRX. While the styling of the WRX is not objectionable to me as it obviously abides with a form-follows-function direction, nevertheless the end result may not weather well with time. Drawings of the upcoming Impreza and WRX revisions though, show potential for a much more cohesive and integrated design. But at this point the Volvo will likely still have appeal after many years. I found myself wondering, of the two options, what will I have in five years or so....Advantage Volvo.
 
#37 ·
A major downside to Subaru performance is that their durability can be very hit or miss. While some owners find their Subarus to be very reliable and capable of running well into the 6 digits on the odo, a statistically significant number of others grenade their motors, and that could happen at any time. I popped the motor on my Saab 92x Aero (essentially a rebadged 2005 WRX wagon) with only 30k miles on the clock, shortly after going to Stage 2 with a basic Cobb AccessPort and downpipe upgrade setup. It was covered under warranty but I never trusted the car after that. It had a host of other issues in the years after that, and it was far from what I'd consider a reliable or well built car. Everything about it felt cheap and flimsy. It was only pleasant to drive it fast, but as a commuter in traffic or on long trips, it sucked. My Volvo feels like a completely different class of vehicle, and with some careful shopping I found my immaculate 2011 T6 loaded with tech with only 9k on the clock for essentially Fiesta ST money. It was like getting a $50k new car for half that money thanks to depreciation. My loaded Volvo cost less than the stripped 2015 GTIs I was shopping at the time, ones that only had halogen headlights, no sunroof, etc. I just couldn't pass up the value of a used S60 T6.

While the Volvo costs more money to modify than the more-obvious tuner friendly cars in this thread, consider that it would take a good chunk of money to get those cars to accelerate like a stock RD or a T6 like mine with the RD-spec Polestar tune. I ran 13.2 at 106mph, and I've seen other stock 3.0T guys run 13.0s, stock. It would likely take a little work and decent expense for most other 4cyl turbo cars to run better numbers. Granted, those other cars have more options to take them further than what can currently be done to the P3 T6, but for someone not looking to go too crazy with mods, a Volvo should easily run high 12s with very little in the way of aftermarket parts needed.
 
#38 ·
Excellent points Bunnspeed. Thanks for relaying your experience. You bring up a point that has always concerned me regarding the WRX if you are buying used. It is rare to find one that hasn't been modified, and sometimes the mods are removed before the sale. So, in a significant part of the population of used WRX's there may be engines that may have been weakened by previous modding beyond design parameters of the engine. These engines may "grenade" as you put it prematurely. On the other hand many used Volvos are unmodified, due to the cost, lesser availability of tuning parts, and a demographic less likely to do so. I've also read where the Polestar folks found that there was a remarkable margin within the Volvo engines to safely work within.

Your comments on the day to day livability of the WRX are interesting, compared with the opportunity to drive the car at its limits. So you have to assess the relative importance of a car you can enjoy at its limits, versus a car that might not have the ultimate limits, but can be enjoyed on a routine basis day today by bringing enhanced capability to that experience.

Your last comments about the value and content available in used Volvos that have already undergone their initial depreciation echoes observations we have discussed in the S80 forum. Many there have noted the exceptional, almost unbelievable, value that used S80's represent, relative to other offerings at similar price points. You also remind me what I have found in many years of owning and modding cars, which is that from a cost standpoint you are almost always better off getting the highest performance version of a car available from the factory than trying to attain it by modifying a lesser model. Its becoming more apparent to me that a T6 RD version with a Polestar engine tune would be a solid basis for a really enjoyable car, a sweet-spot starting point, with additional mods considered only when a specific shortcoming is revealed.
 
#39 ·
Its becoming more apparent to me that a T6 RD version with a Polestar engine tune would be a solid basis for a really enjoyable car, a sweet-spot starting point, with additional mods considered only when a specific shortcoming is revealed.
Given everything else I've learned about your needs and wants in the course of this thread, that sounds spot-on. [emoji106]
 
#41 · (Edited)
I ran across a 2015 WRX at a Mazda dealer with only 8k miles. I just had to know. So I went for a test drive, fully expecting not to like the car. I wound up liking it a whole lot more than I anticipated. The last time I drove a stick was when I drove a friends 550 M-Sport, so I wondered if I would do well with it, but it was like riding the proverbial bicycle. I found the shifter to be positive, if a bit notchy. I had read that the WRX had a 5-speed but this car had a 6-speed with the STI shifter option. The clutch take up was just fine, and I was surprised at how easy it was for me to drive the car smoothly, after not having driven a stick for a few years.

I had also forgotten how a manual car demands your attention at a baseline level, and how that involvement in the driving makes even a mundane drive interesting, and makes an interesting drive downright fun. The steering I found to be very linear and predictable. I read later that this is an electric assist unit on the 2015, but I didn't know that from the test drive. the leather seats were firm and supportive,the driving position quite good, a drivers car for sure. Brakes were just fine, though not exceptional.

We were all surprised at how roomy the car was, with my wife in the front, and daughter and saleswoman in the back. Everyone had plenty of room. The A/C also surprised us, and it was in the high nineties in both temperature and humidity; we had to turn it down because my wife was getting cold. The trunk also surprised us, and we found not only a spare tire but also additional storage under the trunk floor. ( I have to note here the contrast between the spare in this car, and the half-baked solutions in the S60. Subaru seems to have found room for not only a spare but extra storage as well). The ride also surprised me with only some occasional choppiness for the rear seat passengers on some transitions. The car was pretty quiet, except for some wind noise. I found the Harmon Kardon sound system to be decent, better than many. The exhaust note was nice without being intrusive. The dark grey on this particular car, coupled with grey wheels, and a black interior though came across to me as gloomy.

So I came away impressed with the car to the point of making me scratch my head and rethink. It also made me realize how I had missed a driver oriented car, and the engagement in the driving experience that is inherent with a manual.

I went home to think it over and to research the matter (imagine that) and found that there was a slight redesign in 2015 of the WRX/STI due to the revised Impreza platform on which it is based. The newer structure is supposed to be stiffer, and apparently they began putting a 6-speed in, though I don't know if it is exactly the same transmission as in the 6-speed STI. To my untrained eye, and since the car is also offered in certain years as a hatchback, I was not able to tell the difference with an untrained eye between the 2010-2014 cars and the 2015-17 cars. Although there is supposed to be a bit more room in the newer car, I also wonder how much difference there really is between the current and previous generation car. I also found that although I liked the WRX, I would probably want an STI for the Brembo brakes, more advanced AWD, and suspension.

I've been trying to stay in the mid to low twenties with my next car, but the asking price of the 2015 was $29k. An STI will bring about $5k more than that. So by the time I got the STI I would want, it would be priced at or above a 2014 S60RD to get what I would want in that car. So both would be out of my range. OTOH, one of the things I liked about this car was that it was unmodified; the chances of finding an STI in my price range that hasn't been modded are pretty slim.

The enjoyment of the stick in the WRX made me disappointed that such an option isn't available in the S60. Paddle shifters might help, but its just not the same. I also am reconsidering the possibility of a BMW 550, 535, or 335 M-Sport, an Audi S4 manual, or Infiniti G37S 6MT as another alternative.

If anyone has experience with the 2010-14 STI and can compare it to the 2014 S60 RD, comments would be appreciated.
 
#42 ·
I was extremely interested in picking up a 2016 WRX prior to buying my 2012 s60 T6, but after a test drive in the WRX I came away slightly disappointed. The WRX is surprisingly roomy and comfortable to drive, but I felt like it had a very vague clutch and absolutely no low end grunt, two things that really detracted from the driving experience. The WRX I wanted would have cost me a little over $30k, but for $10k less than that I was able to get my CPO T6 with around 30,000 miles on it, an absolute no brainer.

A WRX might be a little more fun than my s60 when the road gets curvy, but stoplight to stoplight a WRX driver is forced to execute a 5k RPM hole-shot unless they want an eye-full of T6 tailights, and even with that Subie turbo fully spooled it would still be close. Plus, no offense to the flat brimmed hat brigade, but the WRX seems to come with an image that I'm not exactly aspiring towards.

The Volvo's lack of a manual transmission option and its whisper quiet exhaust note are definitely things that I put into the cons category, but I've got my 2005 GTO to give me the feelz in both of those categories.
 
#45 ·
whisper quiet exhaust note
This is pretty easily remedied if you're just looking for a better sound. There are a few of us that have swapped out our factory muffler for a camaro magnaflow. $200 for the muffler and 200-300 for the install and you'll have a nice rumble.