[MyVolvoS60]

As I found out with my former 2020 the dealer took back, a dealer could CPO the lightly "used" vehicle with the bare minimum CPO. Thus increasing the sale price to lighten any potential losses. If they have an easy customer, sell them an increased length CPO, paint protection, tire protection, etc, whatever they fall for, then I'd be surprised if the dealer suffered any loss on the bottom line.

I know the dealer may not be the one to necessarily blame here. But the dealer made the money and the customer doesn't have the car they paid for. A loaner is a bandaid for a gaping wound. A loaner is an expectation when maintenance is being done. It's not a compliment when your new car breaks down before 500 miles with no fix in sight.

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I have reached out to OP with instructions in how to escalate her concern. While I would agree with you superficially (it sucks OP is in this position and dealer made money off the sale), the dealer is not responsible for a defective vehicle. If the OP were to do a Lemon Law Claim, the claim would be against Volvo and not the dealer. The dealer had no part in manufacturing the vehicle and isn't liable or responsible for manufacturing defects. All the dealer can do is attempt to repair any deficiencies. It is up to Volvo Corporate to buy back the vehicle (and eat the loss), not the dealer. Likewise, if a lemon law claim were pursued, Volvo and not the dealer would be on the hook for a full refund plus tax, title, and licensing fees, less any damage or mileage put on the vehicle post sale.

 

[ck12345]

ck12345 said:
Sales tax is absolutely refunded (via adjustment to future sales tax filings) to retailers when an item is returned.

You can't just "return" a car. If it's been titled, it's owned. Once the title work is processed by the state it's owned (and sometimes it is pretty fast, we do all our title work online now).

Moving from inventory to certificate of title is a totally different legal framework than sales taxes (its a combo of state law and the uniform commercial code -- the car is owned by the dealership prior to sale, it is just inventory (governed by the UCC) but when it is sold to a person it becomes a certificate of title good)), whereas standard sales taxes is based totally on whether a sale was wholesale or retail sales. Just like when dealers purchase used cars from people to resell, that is not a sale at retail and is not usually subject to consumer sales tax.

In this case, the retail sale is being un-done, for failure to provide merchandise that meets the standards of merchantability, or breach of implied warranty, whatever you want to call it depending on your state. Just like you return stuff to Walmart (or return service contracts or [in my case] extended car warranties) you get the full purchase price back. I agree it is no longer un-used inventory, but doesn't mean sales tax isn't refundable. Tax statutes don't typically distinguish between different types of goods (except as to tax rate, but not the underlying application of the tax).

I agree this is not a thing that is well known by car dealerships, because why would they, its an uncommon occurrence. When I returned an extended warranty within the 3 day contractual termination clause, my local dealership tried to tell me I wasn't entitled to sales tax back. It only took a letter making it to their accountants to say that my refund check for sales tax was in the mail.

 

[Meeshybo]

I just want to clarify as I’m writing from an iPhone and emotional about the ordeal. The pressure behind the wheel I stated in my previous thread isn’t pressure behind the steering wheel. It was pressure behind the wheel of the car. Like when I was breaking I could feel a resistance through the peddle. It would let up just before I came to a complete stop.

 

[Ultrarunner511]

I just want to clarify as I’m writing from an iPhone and emotional about the ordeal. The pressure behind the wheel I stated in my previous thread isn’t pressure behind the steering wheel. It was pressure behind the wheel of the car. Like when I was breaking I could feel a resistance through the peddle. It would let up just before I came to a complete stop.

The hybrids have the regenerative braking that give the feeling like the car is braking itself. It's most notable when directly compared to the non hybrids. For example, we own two T6's and anytime we've been given a T8 loaner, it's light years different with braking.

Of all the T8's/PHEV's/EV's I've driven, I don't know of the feeling you're describing though. The ERAD contains the gears that turn the rear wheels from electric power, mechanically independent of the internal combustion engine. So if the ERAD was bad, whatever you were feeling and describing is accurate.

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[MyVolvoS60]

I just want to clarify as I’m writing from an iPhone and emotional about the ordeal. The pressure behind the wheel I stated in my previous thread isn’t pressure behind the steering wheel. It was pressure behind the wheel of the car. Like when I was breaking I could feel a resistance through the peddle. It would let up just before I came to a complete stop.

Did you receive my message with guidance on how to escalate your concerns to Volvo Executives?

 

[Meeshybo]

Did you receive my message with guidance on how to escalate your concerns to Volvo Executives?

Yes, thank you so much for your assistance. I’ll be sending multiple emails tomorrow from a desktop using your template. Thank you again.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

Yes, thank you so much for your assistance. I’ll be sending multiple emails tomorrow from a desktop using your template. Thank you again.

You're welcome. Glad to help.

 

[Wayne T5]

Yes, thank you so much for your assistance. I’ll be sending multiple emails tomorrow from a desktop using your template. Thank you again.

Hopefully you're acquainting yourself with the lemon law where you live if option 1 doesn't work out. Good luck!

 

[DFrantz]

You can't just "return" a car. If it's been titled, it's owned. Once the title work is processed by the state it's owned (and sometimes it is pretty fast, we do all our title work online now).

Moving from inventory to certificate of title is a totally different legal framework than sales taxes (its a combo of state law and the uniform commercial code -- the car is owned by the dealership prior to sale, it is just inventory (governed by the UCC) but when it is sold to a person it becomes a certificate of title good)), whereas standard sales taxes is based totally on whether a sale was wholesale or retail sales. Just like when dealers purchase used cars from people to resell, that is not a sale at retail and is not usually subject to consumer sales tax.

In this case, the retail sale is being un-done, for failure to provide merchandise that meets the standards of merchantability, or breach of implied warranty, whatever you want to call it depending on your state. Just like you return stuff to Walmart (or return service contracts or [in my case] extended car warranties) you get the full purchase price back. I agree it is no longer un-used inventory, but doesn't mean sales tax isn't refundable. Tax statutes don't typically distinguish between different types of goods (except as to tax rate, but not the underlying application of the tax).

I agree this is not a thing that is well known by car dealerships, because why would they, its an uncommon occurrence. When I returned an extended warranty within the 3 day contractual termination clause, my local dealership tried to tell me I wasn't entitled to sales tax back. It only took a letter making it to their accountants to say that my refund check for sales tax was in the mail.

I've unwound deals and absolutely then the sales tax comes back, but in many cases (and it is a bit state by state), that isn't going to happen for something like this. Many states have zero cooling off period. So yeah, it will depend on state law, and I've never sold outside of Pennsylvania. No breach of warranty though here, at least at this point, the car is getting fixed. Volvo warranties all have a 30 day full cancelation period (I'm pretty sure that's the term anyhow). That's not returning a product, it's canceling a contract.

Again, my main point is that the OP is a few days into this and I was just trying to point out that the ball is moving... we don't know the dealers response, we don't know Volvo response, she's in a car she's putting on miles at zero cost to herself. It's not a good situation, but it's not bad, nothing inappropriate has occurred. I'm not proposing weeks of patience... but days of patience is a very reasonable suggestion.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

Hopefully you're acquainting yourself with the lemon law where you live if option 1 doesn't work out. Good luck!

Ideally, she wants to stay with the Volvo Brand. So figure approaching this diplomatically and giving Volvo an opportunity to make the situation right is the first step. If Volvo can swap her into another vehicle that's equal or better for no charge, everyone walks away a winner here.

1. Volvo's car isn't branded a lemon, which means it can be repaired and resold.
2. Op gets out of this problem vehicle and into another.

Both party's win.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

I've unwound deals and absolutely then the sales tax comes back, but in many cases (and it is a bit state by state), that isn't going to happen for something like this. Many states have zero cooling off period. So yeah, it will depend on state law, and I've never sold outside of Pennsylvania. No breach of warranty though here, at least at this point, the car is getting fixed. Volvo warranties all have a 30 day full cancelation period (I'm pretty sure that's the term anyhow). That's not returning a product, it's canceling a contract.

Again, my main point is that the OP is a few days into this and I was just trying to point out that the ball is moving... we don't know the dealers response, we don't know Volvo response, she's in a car she's putting on miles at zero cost to herself. It's not a good situation, but it's not bad, nothing inappropriate has occurred. I'm not proposing weeks of patience... but days of patience is a very reasonable suggestion.

One question. One Comment.

Question: 1. Even if possible, it wouldn't be in a dealer's interest to unwind a sale, correct? The dealer loses out on the sale versus Volvo who is responsible for "Lemon's" and vehicles failing to meet the standards of merchantability.

Comment: 2. Every state is different on what triggers a Lemon. For instance, some states make it three attempts on a given repair. Others make it a cumulative of 30 days or X days being repaired for a given problem without resolution. Not knowing op's state of residence or purchase, it's hard for us to give her precise guidance.

Either way, as I stated to @Wayne T5, OP wants to give Volvo a chance to handle things diplomatically before pursuing a consumer lawyer (Lemon Law). Volvo loses out big time here, and I don't think that makes sense to Volvo given the red hot market for cars. So hopefully Volvo will see this as an opportunity to swap the OP out into an equal or better vehicle at no cost what so ever, while getting this vehicle back without a branded title. Where it can be fixed and resold for top dollar.

Win Win for both parties involved.

 

[BolboLubber]

Win Win for both parties involved.

Win win for both parties? really?
Will Volvo re-imburse them for the time wasted arguing with service departments and gm's to make these issues right?
Or how about the time spent on this and other forums looking for a resolution to the issue(s)?
New Volvo owners invest large sums on an purchase that should provide them with years of reliable service.

OP, please keep this thread updated with your progress.
Threads like this could help other new Volvo owners who are in similar situations.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

Given the abysmal treatment of recent Volvo owners in other threads, I certainly hope you are right.
OP, please keep this thread updated with your progress.
Threads like this could help other new Volvo owners who are in similar situations.

One would hope given the red hot car market and the short supply of vehicles, Volvo would want to take a diplomatic approach.

As once the car is fixed, a CPO could be slapped on, permitting the vehicle to sell for top dollar. Something not possible if the vehicle is branded a lemon.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

Win win for both parties? really?
Will Volvo re-imburse them for the time wasted arguing with service departments and gm's to make these issues right?
Or how about the time spent on this and other forums looking for a resolution to the issue(s)?
New Volvo owners invest large sums on an purchase that should provide them with years of reliable service.

OP, please keep this thread updated with your progress.
Threads like this could help other new Volvo owners who are in similar situations.

All irrelevant. Dealer has zero responsibility in the production and manufacturing of a vehicle. Dealer made a sale. Car has faults, and due to Covid production shortages, the part isn't immediately available.

Before you jump the gun, we are giving Volvo a chance to make the situation right. Including, but not limited to sticking the op in an equal or better vehicle at no additional expense to her.

 

[kyngofpop]

All irrelevant. Dealer has zero responsibility in the production and manufacturing of a vehicle. Dealer made a sale. Car has faults, and due to Covid production shortages, the part isn't immediately available.

Before you jump the gun, we are giving Volvo a chance to make the situation right. Including, but not limited to sticking the op in an equal or better vehicle at no additional expense to her.

Doesn’t the dealer have a responsibility to to a pre-delivery inspection on EVERY new car that they receive? They most certainly do, and the porter or guys that prep the car need to be held accountable. Don’t they have a supervisor that signs off on vehicles before it’s out on the lot for sale?

We understand that the dealer isn’t responsible for the build quality or defects, but don’t they bear some responsibility in letting this one slip thru the cracks?

All of this situation could’ve possibly been avoided altogether if proper protocols had been followed.


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[MyVolvoS60]

Doesn’t the dealer have a responsibility to to a pre-delivery inspection on EVERY new car that they receive? They most certainly do, and the porter or guys that prep the car need to be held accountable. Don’t they have a supervisor that signs off on vehicles before it’s out on the lot for sale?

We understand that the dealer isn’t responsible for the build quality or defects, but don’t they bear some responsibility in letting this one slip thru the cracks?

All of this situation could’ve possibly been avoided altogether if proper protocols had been followed.

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I don't pretend to second guess, as it solves nothing. Maybe vehicle came from another lot? Maybe vehicle arrived fine and Erad had spontaneous failure post delivery?

Vehicle now has issue and OP needs a resolution. What ifs remedy neither.

 

[DFrantz]

The only indication that there was a problem was the OP reporting "pressure behind the wheel", which to me doesn't sound like anything at all. Even with her updated description, I can't imagine what feeling she's describing.. though I think it's the word "wheel" in there... and if someone told me the brakes felt weird I too would have just said it was the difference in regenerative breaking. So again, it doesn't matter that I have no idea what shes talking about She said she drove some others after and didn't feel the same sensation, but this wasn't compared and expressed until after the fact, and there are even still some possibilities there, but lets assume she did feel a problem, it doesn't mean it was easily identifiable. Chances are this wasn't felt driving around the lot but at higher speeds and higher breaking. Subtle differences aren't going to be felt be folks just moving the car around. And the sales persons answer that it was just the regen breaking satisfied her enough to move forward... even once real noises started she passed it off as being noises of a loose charging cable. Honestly hard for me to imagine braking that would cause a charging cable in a padded compartment making much noise, and to simply pass it off makes it sound like it was probably a subtle noise. No report that these noises happened during test drive, only once she was driving home. She even took it in to her local Volvo shop after the harsh noises started, so now we have a real problem, verified by a tech, and then determined likely to be a loose nut? IMO... the selling dealer would have very little chance or realistic expectation to have identified the failing ERAD. Any indication before hand was pretty subtle and not an immediate red flag. Again, not putting any of this at all on the OP... And not trying to make the situation less than it is... But the selling dealer I don't think should be treated as a bad group here. It's not a "what if"... other than to say what if it was driving on a few more test drives. Over the course of a normal year I frankly find plenty of problems on brand new cars during test drives. Today most cars get a quick spin for inspection and as they are sold before they arrive, we don't put those 50-100 miles on them that we normally do. Statistically it's much more common for a customer to find an early problem this year than normally because of this.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

@DFrantz: The dealer isn’t incentivized to drive cars and rack up mileage either. After all, the more a car is driven (under a non Covid / chip shortage market), the greater the depreciation. A customer isn’t wanting to pick up a brand new car with 1000 miles worth of test drives, unless the price is being reduced or car sold as CPO.

So ya, I don't doubt dealers do a quick around the block and call it a day. After all, post sale, Dealers get paid to fix problems or Volvo (not dealer) is on the hook if vehicle is a lemon.

 

[DFrantz]

Oh for sure, I'm just pointing out the unintended reality. Pre covid, most cars at our lot at delivery had 50-200 miles on it. It's not a concern of depreciation, it's just we make money selling cars, not test driving them. Cars were much more likely to be test driven a few times by different people shopping for a car. Lots more cars were getting dealer traded too. So it's never the dealers intention to put miles on new cars in order to find initial problems, it just happened as part of business. That model has changed. Most cars come off the truck already sold to someone. Nearly every near car I've delivered this year had less than 10 miles on it, with a few exceptions of course. Our OP drove 2 hours to another dealer and willingly paid a high price for the vehicle, because that's what the market is right now and I assume her local dealer couldn't get her what she wanted (I'm sold out of all PHEV for the 2022 year so I imagine many others out. We sold our last unspoken for unit this weekend to someone from 2 hours away ourselves). Maybe I'm totally wrong and hers had a bunch of miles, but statistically, I'd bet she was one of the very first people to test drive it. So this is all more a generalization, there is expected to be more first owner problems in these conditions. I'll bet the initial quality of every brand goes down next year in JD power, and it won't be because of more defects, just more in the hands of owners (assuming JD power doesn't track problems resolved at the dealer pre delivery, I'm not 100% sure where there data comes from).

 

[MyVolvoS60]

Oh for sure, I'm just pointing out the unintended reality. Pre covid, most cars at our lot at delivery had 50-200 miles on it. It's not a concern of depreciation, it's just we make money selling cars, not test driving them. Cars were much more likely to be test driven a few times by different people shopping for a car. Lots more cars were getting dealer traded too. So it's never the dealers intention to put miles on new cars in order to find initial problems, it just happened as part of business.

Agreed.

Pre covid, if a car sat too long, Dealers swapped out vehicles with other dealers for more desirable ones better tailored to their market. I.E. Harder to sell a FWD than an AWD in say Alaska and vice versa with AWD in Florida.

Also dealers had ample inventory to turn unwanted higher mileage or poorly optioned base model cars into loaners. Post covid and Chip Shortage, every car on the lot is a cash cow since replacement isn't easy. So each loaner put into the fleet results in a lost opportunity for a sale.

Dealers definitely have zero interest or opportunity right now to inspect cars beyond a cursory test drive and once over. By the time a car arrives, it's already spoken for or soon will be. Changing the model of a car getting multiple test drives and potential problems being discovered early on.

That model has changed. Most cars come off the truck already sold to someone. Nearly every near car I've delivered this year had less than 10 miles on it, with a few exceptions of course. Our OP drove 2 hours to another dealer and willingly paid a high price for the vehicle, because that's what the market is right now and I assume her local dealer couldn't get her what she wanted (I'm sold out of all PHEV for the 2022 year so I imagine many others out. We sold our last unspoken for unit this weekend to someone from 2 hours away ourselves). Maybe I'm totally wrong and hers had a bunch of miles, but statistically, I'd bet she was one of the very first people to test drive it. So this is all more a generalization, there is expected to be more first owner problems in these conditions. I'll bet the initial quality of every brand goes down next year in JD power, and it won't be because of more defects, just more in the hands of owners assuming JD power doesn't track problems resolved at the dealer pre delivery, I'm not 100% sure where there data comes from).

With cars barely touching the lot before being sold, I surmise you are right. The onus of a car getting multiple test drives and potential problems exposed has been replaced by the consumer becoming the front line inspector of faults and failures. While not ideal from the customer's perspective, it's a stark reality of today's car market. Unfortunately, It's going to hurt all brand reliability scores as customers perceive these issues to be endemic, without understanding the normal course of car sales. Where test drives often catch initial problems, but where this process has been replaced by cars barely touching the lot before winding up in customers' hands.