Well doing a little maintenance on the V70 R, 2004 6spd, 170k. Replaced one of the coils that went bad 2 weeks ago and put in a new plug. Didn't have the time to replace the others at the time so I was going to do it this afternoon. 3 of the 4 plugs came out with too much trouble. I don't recall it I put anti-seize on them when I last changed them but I recall them being a bear to get out. The plug next to the upper engine mount is so hard to turn, not sure if this is #1 or #5. I usually use my "T" handle to remove spark plugs but had to switch to my 8" ratchet to barely move it. I would loose a little and then tighten like you would tap a hole. I worked on it for about an hour slowly backing it our but threw in the towel it just kept getting harder and harder. Put everything back together and I'm off for some 4th july events. Any suggestions how to help it come out?
spark plugs stuck but good
bmwtinut
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:thumbup: Thanks 300+_T5R_855.
I think all of this differing information goes to show it's not just some old guys or forum contributors who have created confusion. It's something that permeates the industry from the car manufacturers down to the spark plug manufacturers. Even Denso disagrees with itself. I suspect, as tmtalpey made reference to, it's more of a case by case basis than just saying all spark plugs should or should not have anti-seize applied.
I think all of this differing information goes to show it's not just some old guys or forum contributors who have created confusion. It's something that permeates the industry from the car manufacturers down to the spark plug manufacturers. Even Denso disagrees with itself. I suspect, as tmtalpey made reference to, it's more of a case by case basis than just saying all spark plugs should or should not have anti-seize applied.
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for plug that does not want to come out like you describe ...since you were able to go back and forth with it , i would stray WD-40 down there and let it soak up for while and then remove it...also, i've been using anti seize on "spark plug threads" for about 25 years....always.
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Anti-seize on plug threads is always a recommended option for reasons like the one that started this thread. I can't believe that anyone wants to advise against such things, especially without having any kind of good reason to back up not using it to prevent your plug threads from getting mangled.
Back in the day when I worked as an automotive machinist I had to remove more screwed up plugs and fasteners than I can count. Some people may wish to think that working screwed up threads back and forth are somehow going to make the threads better, but in reality the galled metal this action creates in their place only makes the situation worse. Once you get to that point lube and torque are your only friends. In some cases you can use heat to open up the hole a little, but when trying to remove a plug deep in the head that's not an option with the engine together.
If you are trying to remove a cross threaded or galled up plug with a T handle you are using the wrong tool. What you need is a big torque wrench that will turn it out of there assuming too much of a mess hasn't been created to where you will need to pull the head and drill it out. A ****ed up plug could easily require over a hundred lbs of torque to get out of there after all and you are not going to pull that off with a small ratchet or t-handle.
Then again what do I know, I'm just an engineer who spent a lot of time as an automotive machinist. Lots of people have opinions about what needs to be done here, doesn't mean they are all right though.
Back in the day when I worked as an automotive machinist I had to remove more screwed up plugs and fasteners than I can count. Some people may wish to think that working screwed up threads back and forth are somehow going to make the threads better, but in reality the galled metal this action creates in their place only makes the situation worse. Once you get to that point lube and torque are your only friends. In some cases you can use heat to open up the hole a little, but when trying to remove a plug deep in the head that's not an option with the engine together.
If you are trying to remove a cross threaded or galled up plug with a T handle you are using the wrong tool. What you need is a big torque wrench that will turn it out of there assuming too much of a mess hasn't been created to where you will need to pull the head and drill it out. A ****ed up plug could easily require over a hundred lbs of torque to get out of there after all and you are not going to pull that off with a small ratchet or t-handle.
Then again what do I know, I'm just an engineer who spent a lot of time as an automotive machinist. Lots of people have opinions about what needs to be done here, doesn't mean they are all right though.
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I lubricate my spark plugs with Hoppe's #9.
'Murica!!!!
'Murica!!!!
LMAO!
I just did my plugs today and like yours, #5 was really hard to get out. I'm pretty sure they were the factory plugs. I could barely turn it and like you said, it seemed to get harder the more i did it. I eventually just turned the ratchet really hard and it came loose
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Just because you drive a train doesn't mean you know everything.
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HAHA!
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I use anti-sieze, but keep it about 2 threads above the electrode.
gap .023-.024
Interesting to note that Volvo says not to use grease. I'm not sure anti-sieze would be considered grease, lubricant for sure, but not grease.
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I never use antisieze on plugs. NGK plugs are plated with everything you ever need. It says on their website. I would seriously doubt any other reputable spark plug manufacturer would not do the same. I have never had a seized spark plug that I installed dry. This ranges from air cooled motorcycles, 35 year old tractors to turbo charged passenger cars. But, cars with antisieze on them are always tougher to remove. That's my experience. I do use antisieze on oxygen sensors if its supplied. I also agree with penetrating oil and going slowly. Also, show us what it looks like when it's extracted.
Sent from my rotor-dial phone with the help of Cortana.
Sent from my rotor-dial phone with the help of Cortana.
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Long reach plugs like ours are notorious for getting stuck. NGK may assume that their magic coating prevents such things, but after seeing enough NGKs tear up a plug hole I'm not that impressed by their thinking that a electroplated coating is enough to prevent them from getting stuck like many other plated plugs do.
Just like volvo telling you that they think that automatic transmission fluid can last the lifetime of a vehicle, reality is another thing all together.
If you are concerned about over torquing your plugs, just reduce the torque spec as required if you don't have the feel for doing such things by hand.
Another important thing is using just a small amount, in the case of a spark plug you just need enough to coat the threads. Filling the thread gap with anti-seize isn't going to do anyone any favors either.
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=2023
Just like volvo telling you that they think that automatic transmission fluid can last the lifetime of a vehicle, reality is another thing all together.
If you are concerned about over torquing your plugs, just reduce the torque spec as required if you don't have the feel for doing such things by hand.
Another important thing is using just a small amount, in the case of a spark plug you just need enough to coat the threads. Filling the thread gap with anti-seize isn't going to do anyone any favors either.
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=2023
tmtalpey, wow...
The reason I do this is because of how unsmoothly (gritty, uneven torque...) the factory original plugs feel when they finally get unscrewed out. It makes me wonder how many plug changes the aluminum head's plug hole threads can endure in its life. I much prefer how much more smoothly the plugs I've installed come out; that makes me feel like the head's threads could put up with that dozens of insertions/removals without even noticing...
Speaking of feel, when the plug is gliding (because the threads are lubricated) into tightened position, it's not difficult to feel the plug's gasket becoming slightly crushed, and being careful, and reasonable with it in terms of avoiding excessive torque.
I use Bosch FR7 MPP10 plugs (it's a Bosch ignition system, isn't it?), whose packaging has an icon that seems to indicate that they should be torqued to 90 degrees (from when the gasket first makes contact, I assume) or 28 Nm. With lubed threads it's a lot easier to tell when the gasket makes contact, so, as I see it, going beyond 90 degrees from that point, in order to achieve some torque number, would just be asking for trouble.
I used to use a T-handle to tighten them, but I once (first replacement after the 850's originals were removed) had 1 plug with a slight leaky gasket, and that plug was a real PITA to remove because of that (...I believe the torque my hand had felt when installing that plug was partly from leftover crap in the threads, not from gasket tightening, so the gasket never got crushed enough to seal completely). Now that I have nearly as healthy a respect for the result of slightly under-tightening as I do for the results of over-tightening, and these plugs have such long thReads, plus I no longer trust my hand to apply as much torque as can a tool, I use a longer lever arm (ratchet wrench) with plenty of care, and feel/judge for myself when they're sufficiently torqued. (Maybe I'd reconsider if I had a torque wrench that was made for spark plugs not for lug nuts...)
I use a large dab... I also consider it a real treat to see a current post from you, whose technical posts heRe of so long ago made a lot of sense to me.
Thank you for sharing that. Now that I can see that I've been doing it wrong for decades, with nearly perfect success, I guess I'll have a decision to make next time...
+1, tho closer to 1/3 M mi here...
Same here; above the bottom thread or two I more or less fill the threads with "Permatex ANTI SEIZE LUBRICANT", the same tube of silvery stuff I've used for decades. I also don't fill the top few+ threads. Then I wipe off all I can with a paper towel, which still leaves (the crevices of) most of the threads partly full...
The reason I do this is because of how unsmoothly (gritty, uneven torque...) the factory original plugs feel when they finally get unscrewed out. It makes me wonder how many plug changes the aluminum head's plug hole threads can endure in its life. I much prefer how much more smoothly the plugs I've installed come out; that makes me feel like the head's threads could put up with that dozens of insertions/removals without even noticing...
Speaking of feel, when the plug is gliding (because the threads are lubricated) into tightened position, it's not difficult to feel the plug's gasket becoming slightly crushed, and being careful, and reasonable with it in terms of avoiding excessive torque.
I use Bosch FR7 MPP10 plugs (it's a Bosch ignition system, isn't it?), whose packaging has an icon that seems to indicate that they should be torqued to 90 degrees (from when the gasket first makes contact, I assume) or 28 Nm. With lubed threads it's a lot easier to tell when the gasket makes contact, so, as I see it, going beyond 90 degrees from that point, in order to achieve some torque number, would just be asking for trouble.
I used to use a T-handle to tighten them, but I once (first replacement after the 850's originals were removed) had 1 plug with a slight leaky gasket, and that plug was a real PITA to remove because of that (...I believe the torque my hand had felt when installing that plug was partly from leftover crap in the threads, not from gasket tightening, so the gasket never got crushed enough to seal completely). Now that I have nearly as healthy a respect for the result of slightly under-tightening as I do for the results of over-tightening, and these plugs have such long thReads, plus I no longer trust my hand to apply as much torque as can a tool, I use a longer lever arm (ratchet wrench) with plenty of care, and feel/judge for myself when they're sufficiently torqued. (Maybe I'd reconsider if I had a torque wrench that was made for spark plugs not for lug nuts...)
It's all about the gasket. Angle-tightening makes a lot of sense and is pretty much what I do. Any torque needs to be super-low because of the long threads, with 20 or more thread turns to bite, it really doesn't take much. And too much, well, we know what that does later.
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Five Volvos in twelve years, many plugs changes, always use anti-seize, oem plugs, and torque them to 18lbs. Never, ever broke a plug (although I broke head bolt once, but that's another story). Plugs that I put in always come back out easy. A few first time plug changes have been challenging (all cars I'm 2nd owner). The key, as has been said already, is to go slow and use the right tools. I typically reach for my 1/2" drive 18" ratchet with a 10" extension. Those first few turns are critical so I don't leave it to smaller tools with less torque. Also, don't try to cheat around the OTE pipe, either remove it or at least loosen it up and get it out of the way. The key here in my experience is straight-on 90' turning, go slow, and if a problem plug arises shoot with a little PB blaster.
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In all seriousness, before I got into my current line of work, I was a commercial captain and deckhand for a fleet of water taxis. One of my jobs was monthly sparkplug changes on the entire fleet (each boat saw 400-500 hours per MONTH of severe service) . We had a total of 13 boats, with either single or twin v-6s or v-8s, some iron heads, some aluminum heads. I changed more plugs in those few summers than I ever will in my entire remaining life.
We NEVER used anti-seize on the plugs, and we were operating in a salt-water environment. Now, while time was on our side, and the in-season changes were always like butter, we also mothballed the fleet for the off-season, and I never had an issue with the plugs when we would change them out right before splashing the boats for the new season. If ever a plug was going to seize up, it would be on those engines that sat cold for 8 months without running after having been rode hard and put away wet and salty.
I attribute my 100% "success" rate with plugs to be the following:
1) If a plug came out really dirty, I would use a small bore brush to clean up the threads in the head, and then wipe it clean with a little wd40 or PB buster on a rag. Otherwise, I would leave the head alone.
2) If I couldn't hand-start the plugs due to head design or space constraints (manifolds in the way, tight bilges, etc) I would ALWAYS start threading the plugs by attaching a 4-6" long piece of vacuum line on the end of the plug, and then twisting the other end of the line by hand. That allowed me to simulate "hand-starting" the plugs, and I would thread them until they will no longer turn easily. Only THEN I would switch to a hand tool to torque it down to spec. It was VERY easy to tell when you were about to cross thread a plug, and you could back it off and try it again until it went in clean.
We NEVER started plugs with a hand tool, especially on the aluminum head motors, and in the 500+ spark plugs I changed, I never cross-threaded a single plug, and we RARELY broke a plug extracting them (most broken plugs were caused by the tool slipping off and snapping the tip off).
We NEVER used anti-seize on the plugs, and we were operating in a salt-water environment. Now, while time was on our side, and the in-season changes were always like butter, we also mothballed the fleet for the off-season, and I never had an issue with the plugs when we would change them out right before splashing the boats for the new season. If ever a plug was going to seize up, it would be on those engines that sat cold for 8 months without running after having been rode hard and put away wet and salty.
I attribute my 100% "success" rate with plugs to be the following:
1) If a plug came out really dirty, I would use a small bore brush to clean up the threads in the head, and then wipe it clean with a little wd40 or PB buster on a rag. Otherwise, I would leave the head alone.
2) If I couldn't hand-start the plugs due to head design or space constraints (manifolds in the way, tight bilges, etc) I would ALWAYS start threading the plugs by attaching a 4-6" long piece of vacuum line on the end of the plug, and then twisting the other end of the line by hand. That allowed me to simulate "hand-starting" the plugs, and I would thread them until they will no longer turn easily. Only THEN I would switch to a hand tool to torque it down to spec. It was VERY easy to tell when you were about to cross thread a plug, and you could back it off and try it again until it went in clean.
We NEVER started plugs with a hand tool, especially on the aluminum head motors, and in the 500+ spark plugs I changed, I never cross-threaded a single plug, and we RARELY broke a plug extracting them (most broken plugs were caused by the tool slipping off and snapping the tip off).
Fantastic advice, but honestly if the plugs come out every month I wouldn't put anything on 'em either. A 60K mile (5 years) or even 100K iridium plug will need more than a little more persuasion without it.
Carbon on the lower threads doesn't help, and a thread chaser would help if so. Hoppe's #9 as mentioned earlier is just the ticket for that!
Carbon on the lower threads doesn't help, and a thread chaser would help if so. Hoppe's #9 as mentioned earlier is just the ticket for that!
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