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Presenting this as either everyone has an ev or no one does is an easy way to make any argument work. Not everyone needs to have an ev. They’re expensive and need to be charged. A lot of people will get ev because it’s better for the environment, because regulations create incentives to get an ev and because they like driving an ev over ice. I don’t see why this is such a controversial topic. Most everyone who has a T8 loves their car.
 

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I certainly hope that the charging infrastructure improves at the same rate that manufactures claim to be going all electric. If you just take short drives, charge at home and no worries. But what gives me pause about buying electric right now is more cars taking longer drives, and needing to charge at a station. I know of a tourist town that has 2 chargers total. What happens when 4 cars arrive that need to be charged? With a gas station you wait 5 minutes in line and then it’s your turn. With chargers that require you to park, plug in, and wait 15 minutes minimum (for most cars )-who wants to wait for this? It’s one thing if you find a charger, go to lunch, come back to a fully charged car. That means that that charger has been in use for much longer and therefore the next car has to put off charging even longer. We would need many more chargers and faster charging times for this to work. It only works now because the percentage of electric cars is a fraction of ICE cars.
You got that right! I have read and watched some videos that mentioned all the charging networks currently out have some serious issues except for Tesla. Currently other brands can’t use the Tesla network. This information sure opened my eyes and therefore have no plans to get an EV anytime soon.

Also there are plenty of owners of EVs who have returned them and purchased an ICE vehicle as a replacement. Range anxiety and charging infrastructure were the two main reasons for trading them in. Funny how we don’t hear any of that news.
 

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Hydrogen is good but it’s not as far along as ev. There will be a place for hydrogen depending on trip needs. That infrastructure is even further behind ev charging.
Li batteries are already being used to store energy for homes at the end of their life cycle. They aren’t good enough to be used in a car but they are more than good enough to be used for other applications.
There’s no jury that’s out, and no misguided push. It’s already done and based on sound science. You are singling out just the battery as if an entire ice engine gets recycled. What about the extra oil that’s consumed in ice? It’s about comparing things on a like for like basis and we are no longer in the exploratory phases here, ev is better for the environment and it’s the way forward. Checkout the COP26 conference coming up for more info on what specific guidelines most nations will agree to in order to reduce emissions.
Hydrogen costs will be more competitive as more uses come on line. One example, Plug Power is currently building four gigafactories throughout the USA and occasionally signing new partnerships. Their most recently signed contact is with an aviation company and will be involved in the propulsion system. Also, they use water as their source to produce their hydrogen, not natural gas.

I have owned stock in this company for some time now and it has started to get the attention it deserves. I also have owned NIO for awhile, a Chinese EV manufacturer. Even after this and I still don’t plan to own nothing but an ICE vehicle.
 

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Electric powered vehicles will take over. I know people are resistant but they will. There was once a big deal about electronic this and that, like electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition. Now, it's no big deal. The country will catch up with the charging networks. I do wish there was a backup because electricity goes out. But in 20 or so years, there will be very few ICE vehicles on roads and probably none sold new. And electric cars do drive better.
 

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Electric powered vehicles will take over. I know people are resistant but they will. There was once a big deal about electronic this and that, like electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition. Now, it's no big deal. The country will catch up with the charging networks. I do wish there was a backup because electricity goes out. But in 20 or so years, there will be very few ICE vehicles on roads and probably none sold new. And electric cars do drive better.
Preach!
 

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Hydrogen costs will be more competitive as more uses come on line. One example, Plug Power is currently building four gigafactories throughout the USA and occasionally signing new partnerships. Their most recently signed contact is with an aviation company and will be involved in the propulsion system. Also, they use water as their source to produce their hydrogen, not natural gas.

I have owned stock in this company for some time now and it has started to get the attention it deserves. I also have owned NIO for awhile, a Chinese EV manufacturer. Even after this and I still don’t plan to own nothing but an ICE vehicle.
Hydrogen cars are electric cars. They have electric motors, not ice motors. Partially because electric motors are more efficient. It’s not that easy to power four factories with water.. I’m sure some of it is water and not all. Doesn’t really matter, glad they are doing it. I’m all for hydrogen vehicles. I don’t really see the point since they’re not as efficient (same unit of energy going into a battery gets you further) but it’s nice you can refuel quickly, when infrastructure gets there (it’s further behind than ev charging). You don’t have to own an ice car, and I have no interest in making you.
 

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You got that right! I have read and watched some videos that mentioned all the charging networks currently out have some serious issues except for Tesla. Currently other brands can’t use the Tesla network. This information sure opened my eyes and therefore have no plans to get an EV anytime soon.

Also there are plenty of owners of EVs who have returned them and purchased an ICE vehicle as a replacement. Range anxiety and charging infrastructure were the two main reasons for trading them in. Funny how we don’t hear any of that news.
Tesla is opening their charging network to other car brands. They announced it a couple of months ago. Since that was what held you up from buying an ev will you change it once they open the network? Google says about one in five ev owners go back to ice. 4 of 5 do not. If range anxiety and charging is an issue then a hybrid is a great option.
Again if we don’t like ev for whatever reason that’s fine. But it’s not the same as saying ev won’t be big in the future because on a grand scale many more will own them than do today. The worst part is that they’re at a premium and you don’t really get your money back with gas savings. Factor in a couple grand for a home charger and they’re even more expensive. That’s enough of a reason not to get one. I think there are many who pay the premium and like the drive or for environmental factors. If government subsidizes then that helps too.
Anyway I wish you the best it doesn’t bother me what choice you make. I do think that overall these cars will have a lot of success. They are so fast.. that in and of itself shows me they’re the next step in car evolution.
 

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My T6 Volvo felt like old technology after test driving the Polestar 2. The Polestar 2 felt like a tight, new Volvo in every respect except the drivetrain. But that makes a big different. Electric power is just so much smoother and effortless and quieter. I don't need the sound of an engine or exhaust. So, if you are into that, you may miss ICE. But the efforts to make the engine and transmission smooth don't match the EV. The EV goes when you point it and builds in a very linear and quick way. There's just no getting around that and it feels more advanced than an ICE. There are also pretty much zero vibrations in it from the motor. Even the best engines have a bit of vibration. Now, it's up to the charging structures to get it together but they will in years to come. Also, batteries will get more efficient, lighter, and cost less. The future is EVs.
 

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You got that right! I have read and watched some videos that mentioned all the charging networks currently out have some serious issues except for Tesla. Currently other brands can’t use the Tesla network. This information sure opened my eyes and therefore have no plans to get an EV anytime soon. ... Funny how we don’t hear any of that news.
Other interesting factoids:
-Europe plus China sold 8x more EVs than #3 US in 2020
-Europe & China each have mandated one charging plug standard. The US is still squabbling about four different standards, resulting in wasted opportunities.
-The city of Beijing alone has more charging stations than the entire USA.

I also believe hydrogen is too far out (20-30 years?), too inefficient, and too expensive right now for autos. Interesting no one has mentioned potential gains in solid state batteries which are supposedly ~2x denser in energy per unit volume than current Li batteries.
 
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The truly green hydrogen is still years out, as you say, with wind powering plants that produce ammonia. Tons of energy lost wit every conversion from water to hydrogen to ammonia back to hydrogen, plus the transportation cost of getting hydrogen from the source like Saudi Arabia to Europe. Air Products Group is working on a project in Saudi’s Arabia right now that will do this, but it’s years out.
It’s closer than you think. Plug Power is currently building four gigafactories throughout the USA and they are expanding into aviation and semi trucks.
Hydrogen cars are electric cars. They have electric motors, not ice motors. Partially because electric motors are more efficient. It’s not that easy to power four factories with water.. I’m sure some of it is water and not all. Doesn’t really matter, glad they are doing it. I’m all for hydrogen vehicles. I don’t really see the point since they’re not as efficient (same unit of energy going into a battery gets you further) but it’s nice you can refuel quickly, when infrastructure gets there (it’s further behind than ev charging). You don’t have to own an ice car, and I have no interest in making you.
I know they are driven by electric motors so where did I say otherwise? Also, the Plug Power factories will be powered mainly by solar. Actually longer range is possible with a hydrogen system and quicker to refuel. Those are the primary reasons why these systems are going to be used in long hauling trucking since full EV will never work in that environment due to range. Already in the testing phase.

By the way, I drive an ICE vehicle, a 2021 AMG E63s Wagon (Hammer Wagon) and killing the planet (I will be driving it less than 2,000 miles a year since I'm retired) but an doing my part saving the planet by having a 10.3kw solar system in our backyard. By driving very few miles and with my home solar system I'm probably doing more to save the planet than most on this forum who only have an EV (or plan to get one ) but have no home solar system.
 
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A friend drives a V8 Range Rover. When that thing turns on HOLY COW it sounds amazing. I get the appeal. It’s a feature not a bug to be loud and strong. No issue with that. The AMG is probably crazy fun to drive. Nice work on the solar. I would like to get that going but the payback doesn’t make sense and I’m such a control freak that there’s too much I don’t know about solar to invest. The T8 was a pretty big leap for me. I really do like how the ev only has one gear and is so quiet.

The solid state batteries as far as I know still are not in the engineering phase. They can’t build them yet so still being worked on. There’s a public company whose name escapes me that had a pretty scathing short report not long ago. Something with Q in the name. Seems like we are still 5 to 10 years away.

For plug power I won’t comment but the company is making a lot of promises of which many are skeptical. I don’t think you can run a plant entirely on solar or wind or hydro, no way and no how. Needs lights on at all times not just when wind is blowing or when it’s sunny. Not that it matters much. The hydrogen cars are still a way off. Why does it matter that they are ev? How is hydrogen better for passenger cars than battery ev? If that’s the entire premise for that company being viable, that’s a question that should easily be answered.
 

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A friend drives a V8 Range Rover. When that thing turns on HOLY COW it sounds amazing. I get the appeal. It’s a feature not a bug to be loud and strong. No issue with that. The AMG is probably crazy fun to drive. Nice work on the solar. I would like to get that going but the payback doesn’t make sense and I’m such a control freak that there’s too much I don’t know about solar to invest. The T8 was a pretty big leap for me. I really do like how the ev only has one gear and is so quiet.

The solid state batteries as far as I know still are not in the engineering phase. They can’t build them yet so still being worked on. There’s a public company whose name escapes me that had a pretty scathing short report not long ago. Something with Q in the name. Seems like we are still 5 to 10 years away.

For plug power I won’t comment but the company is making a lot of promises of which many are skeptical. I don’t think you can run a plant entirely on solar or wind or hydro, no way and no how. Needs lights on at all times not just when wind is blowing or when it’s sunny. Not that it matters much. The hydrogen cars are still a way off. Why does it matter that they are ev? How is hydrogen better for passenger cars than battery ev? If that’s the entire premise for that company being viable, that’s a question that should easily be answered.
Quantumscape

Toyota is/will make a big ivestment into solid state batteries with Panasonic, (I think that was the company), and they have enough money to throw at it.
 

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Tesla is opening their charging network to other car brands. They announced it a couple of months ago. Since that was what held you up from buying an ev will you change it once they open the network? Google says about one in five ev owners go back to ice. 4 of 5 do not. If range anxiety and charging is an issue then a hybrid is a great option.
Again if we don’t like ev for whatever reason that’s fine. But it’s not the same as saying ev won’t be big in the future because on a grand scale many more will own them than do today. The worst part is that they’re at a premium and you don’t really get your money back with gas savings. Factor in a couple grand for a home charger and they’re even more expensive. That’s enough of a reason not to get one. I think there are many who pay the premium and like the drive or for environmental factors. If government subsidizes then that helps too.
Anyway I wish you the best it doesn’t bother me what choice you make. I do think that overall these cars will have a lot of success. They are so fast.. that in and of itself shows me they’re the next step in car evolution.
Where did I say EVs won't be the future? They may not be in our future for various reasons. We have no plans to get any type of new vehicle anytime soon since we both special ordered our current ones earlier this year. My AMG E63s wagon is a keeper and it will be my last vehicle. Its just that good! I will be lucky if I put 1500 miles a year on it and I'm 69 years old so it should last me until I can't drive any longer. My last vehicle was a 2017 Porsche Macan Turbo with Performance Package and I drove it 4 1/2 years and only put 7551 miles on it. My vehicle is considered our second vehicle and it doesn't get driven much. Looks like it was the last year they made the wagon as an ICE vehicle. MB cancelled all their 4.0 AMG 63s models across the board for MY22 and will be coming out with their new lineup for MY23 and everything should be hybrid. MB will be all EV a few years later, so yes times are changing. Because of these changes, my wagon has gone up in value and will only continue to do so because of their demand versus an EV. I have been offered $30k more than I paid for it after it was titled and things haven't slowed down yet.

If 1 in 5 EV owners return to an ICE vehicle that is a fairly high rate at 20% considering there aren't that many EVs out compared to the number of ICE vehicles on the road. I never said I didn't like EVs and forget about getting a hybrid. They are just an ICE vehicle with more weight and moving parts to break with the hybrid system. However, since I'm retired we take road trips with our grandchildren (we also home school both of them so these trips are part of their learning) and don't plan to schedule our stops with trying to find a recharging location when there are gas stations on every corner. No planning for gas stops is required and the stop will be less than 15 minutes compared to who knows how long if I had an EV and how far out of our way. If all I wanted a vehicle for was to drive it around town, and then park it in the garage at night and recharge it, then an EV would be great. We are retired and travel and don't have to do the Monday-Friday grinds to-from work where an EV would work out great.

Our next vehicle will be fully autonomous and by the time we decide to replace my wife's vehicle I'm sure there will be a few to choose from.
 
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A friend drives a V8 Range Rover. When that thing turns on HOLY COW it sounds amazing. I get the appeal. It’s a feature not a bug to be loud and strong. No issue with that. The AMG is probably crazy fun to drive. Nice work on the solar. I would like to get that going but the payback doesn’t make sense and I’m such a control freak that there’s too much I don’t know about solar to invest. The T8 was a pretty big leap for me. I really do like how the ev only has one gear and is so quiet.

The solid state batteries as far as I know still are not in the engineering phase. They can’t build them yet so still being worked on. There’s a public company whose name escapes me that had a pretty scathing short report not long ago. Something with Q in the name. Seems like we are still 5 to 10 years away.

For plug power I won’t comment but the company is making a lot of promises of which many are skeptical. I don’t think you can run a plant entirely on solar or wind or hydro, no way and no how. Needs lights on at all times not just when wind is blowing or when it’s sunny. Not that it matters much. The hydrogen cars are still a way off. Why does it matter that they are ev? How is hydrogen better for passenger cars than battery ev? If that’s the entire premise for that company being viable, that’s a question that should easily be answered.
Our solar system had a 30% Federal Tax credit and we got a nice rebate from our utility company too. Our portion was about half of the actual cost to build. The savings per month now is a little more than $200 for us now compared to what our utility bill was before we installed the system.

Seems like you haven't kept track of what Plug Power has been up to because they are doing more than making promises or is it you are just negative about hydrogen? They had their 2021 symposium yesterday and you would be surprised with the partnerships they are forming such as with Walmart, Amazon and FedEx. Not to mention the ones they already had in place. Two of their recent ones is with Airbus and the other is with a French company to co-manufacture a commercial van. Also, they are going to build a gigafactory in Australia and a European headquarters in Germany. They have other things in the pipeline. Their gigafactories will store all surplus capability so there are no issues with keeping the lights on, etc.. They are not 20-30 years away from being mainstream, profitable and inventing useful products but will be a $1,000 stock way before then. I don't usually give stock tips but looks like I gave you one. When you look back at this company ten years from now you will be surprised at how they have grown and what they have become.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
It seems to me that this is actually not a simple unilateral debate between the ICE (gasoline or diesel) verses the Electric Car (Hybrid, PHEV or EV).
Rather, it is the matter of source emissions from the fuel being consumed and carbon released over the full product life cycle, which should be the topic of debate...
If we could capture all the Co2 and other gases (eg NOX) at the tailpipe, that would isolate one factor. But the production of the compulsion system itself and ongoing refueling is also very relevant.
And don't forget that plugging in to recharge an EV's Lithium battery is also relying on fossil fuels, nuclear, hydro-electric,...and producing the Lithium battery is also very damaging to the environment.
That's where green hydrogen (made with renewable energy) is a great concept, as it only results in water vapor at the point of ignition, as well as having an innocuous production process.
Fuel cells, solid state batteries and whatever comes next might also play a part...
But the debate will go on, and EV power via a rechargeable Lithium battery from a "to be determined fuel source" is not the only choice we have and might not be the best idea longer term.

In addition to Toyota and Panasonic, others are pursuing solid state batteries:
BMW and Ford are investing in Solid Power, a Colorado-based solid-state battery startup.
Hyundai is investing into SolidEnergy Systems, a spin-off company from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
General Motors and Volkswagen are also making investments.

Here's more detail:

And there will be crossover, as Hyundai and Rimac are co-developing a car, which will use a hydrogen fuel cell and an electric motor.

I think a combined fuel source makes a lot of sense; such as, what if I arrive home with a depleted battery and the power is off due to a storm. I could be stuck with no options.
Whereas a fuel cell (hydrogen powered) with a battery backup (regenerative from braking) would be a great hybrid combo, both feeding an electric motor with fewer moving parts.

In the end, perhaps neither the ICE or Lithium battery are necessary.

Solar/Wind (or some other renewable) recharging a recyclable fuel-cell, being converted into direct electric power for the vehicle seems like the holy-grail to me, if possible/practical/feasible.
And Hydrogen can facilitate this...as it does with enabling fusion which powers our SUN!

And BTW, hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles are already available:
And you can fill the tank in 5 minutes (I don't think an electric charger will ever be that fast!)
 

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1% of all vehicles on the road today are pure EV. 4.5% of all auto sales were pure EV. That’s for 2020. The industry has a very very long way to go.
 
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