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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I found some very old posts on this topic so I did some quick research and found useful info. I've used <A HREF="http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp" TARGET="_blank">Redline Water Wetter</A> in all my cars for the last 15 years or so with no problems but <I>not much </I>noticable difference in ECT (engine coolant temp). I have not put it in my R, <I>yet</I>.<p>Sitting inside nice and cool with the blazing 95°F temps going on outside I'm thinking about all the possible ways to keep my R cool and maintain power.<p>I found some <A HREF="http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/more_myths1/Water_Wetter/water_wetter.htm" TARGET="_blank"><U>interesting info on Water Wetter</U></A>. Based on the analysis done but this dude with a PHD in heat transfer, It seems Water Wetter should help in avoiding knock and therefore help keep the power max'ed in the summer heat.<p>Don't get too excited, Water Wetter alone is no silver bullter. It will not save us from the 30hp loss we feel any time the mercury climbs over 85°F but should help a bit. However, I think the bigger gain comes from a proper application of Water Wtter (70/30 water/coolant mixture) <B>and</B> Aquamist. Water Wetter should further improve the engine's and Aquamist's ability to maintain an even flame front in the cylinders and therefore keep knock to an absolute minimum.<p>Since the PHD dude says you shoudn't expect to see a significant drop in ECT with Water Wetter the only other indicator is in monitoring Timing Advance before and after under similar cirumstances. To do so you'll need an OBD-II tool with data collection abilities such as <A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=63005" TARGET="_blank"><FONT COLOR="red">PCM Scan</FONT></A>.<p>Has anyone tried Water Wetter and monitored Timing Advance? I hope to get this all done in my R within the next week. If you want Water Wetter and Aquamist, both are available form <A HREF="http://www.ipdusa.com/ProductsCat.aspx?CategoryID=1425&NodeID=4655&RootID=629" TARGET="_blank">IPD</A>. Adding a bottle to your Aquamist GB order will probably save a bit on shipping as well... I'm sure Scott Hart can tell us how far the 'free shipping' for the Aquamist GB will go <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>LTA<br>
 

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Re: Water Wetter to reduce engine knock? (LTA)

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge on the subject, but I thought that knock was a non-issue as the engine's electronics would monitor this and would safeguard against any pre-ignition?
 

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Re: Water Wetter to reduce engine knock? (Vipergtsz3)

Your knowledge is correct. It is the role of the knock sensor to detect knock caused by pre-ignition and via the ECU take counter measures to avoid the knock. <p>One remedy used by the ECU is to retard the timing which it does, however in doing so, that now reduces the engine output. <p>What is being suggested here is that if the combustion chamber temperature can be held lower, in this case via Water Wetter, than the pre-ignition can be reduced, and timing not retarded, thus allowing more power output. The assumption is that the Water Wetter provides better heat transfer local to the combustion chamber in the head, not necessarily that it reduces overall engine temperature.
 

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This is not OT, so bear with me for a sec. I have been water cooling computers for about 5 years now and have done tons of research in thermal transfer. First, I can tell you I do not recommend Water Wetter at all. It will leave a horrible film everywhere which eventually turns to a white slothy brew. If you want to use a like additive, use Hy-Per Lube instead: <A HREF="http://hyperlube.com/prod_cool.asp" TARGET="_blank">http://hyperlube.com/prod_cool.asp</A> Keep in mind this stuff (any water additive) will do VERY LITTLE in modern cars... they are designed to reach a certain temperature and stay there, they are very efficient at doing this. They don't WANT to run 20 degrees cooler. Sure you could swap the thermostat to a 180 degree unit but then the ECU might freak out <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> Next, antifreeze (coolant) is HORRIBLE at heat transfer! It does NOTHING to aid cooling and only hinders it. It is used for its anti corrosive properties and lubrication. It will raise the boiling temp of the liquid slightly, but the pressurized system does most of that. This stuff will help most in older cars where there is no ECU (like my 70 Chevelle LS 6 I sold <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/frown.gif" BORDER="0"> ) and a cooler thermostat can be installed and where you use NO ANTIFREEZE. <p>In short, if it makes YOU feel better then add the stuff... Reality is it won't do very much, if anything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: (nikhsub1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>nikhsub1</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is not OT, so bear with me for a sec. I have been water cooling computers for about 5 years now and have done tons of research in thermal transfer. First, I can tell you I do not recommend Water Wetter at all. It will leave a horrible film everywhere which eventually turns to a white slothy brew. If you want to use a like additive, use Hy-Per Lube instead: <A HREF="http://hyperlube.com/prod_cool.asp" TARGET="_blank">http://hyperlube.com/prod_cool.asp</A> Keep in mind this stuff (any water additive) will do VERY LITTLE in modern cars... they are designed to reach a certain temperature and stay there, they are very efficient at doing this. They don't WANT to run 20 degrees cooler. Sure you could swap the thermostat to a 180 degree unit but then the ECU might freak out <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> Next, antifreeze (coolant) is HORRIBLE at heat transfer! It does NOTHING to aid cooling and only hinders it. It is used for its anti corrosive properties and lubrication. It will raise the boiling temp of the liquid slightly, but the pressurized system does most of that. This stuff will help most in older cars where there is no ECU (like my 70 Chevelle LS 6 I sold <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/frown.gif" BORDER="0"> ) and a cooler thermostat can be installed and where you use NO ANTIFREEZE. <p>In short, if it makes YOU feel better then add the stuff... Reality is it won't do very much, if anything.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I think you missed my point and that I started by saying you should not expect Water Wetter or any other sufactant to reduce ECT.<p>The purpose of a surfactant is to reduce the surface tension of water and therefore reduce buddling. Less bubbling means better heat transfer and fewer hot spots. Fewer hot spots means better chance for an even flame front at combustion time. Even flame front means less knock and we know what less knock means.<p>What materials were you running it through in your CPU cooler? I've never had probelems with a "white slothy brew". I've used Water Wetter in lots of cars and never had that kind of problem ('80 Capri, '88 Iroc-Z, '89 Corolla GTS, '94 Civic Si, '96 850T wagon, S60 T5, XC90 2.5T)<p>The only problem I ever had was forgetting to get the mix back to 50/50 mix before the winter and having slushy (almost forzen) coolant! That was scary!<p>LTA<br>
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: (nikhsub1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>nikhsub1</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LTA, reducing the surface tension of water will help very little in what you think it may help you achieve... </TD></TR></TABLE><p>No offence intended but cooling a CPU in your PC is different from what's going inside the R's engine. Did you read what the Phd. guy wrote? It makes sense to me and it's non-biased info compared with what you'll find on the Red Line site. <p>Maybe he's full of beans and really doesn't know his stuff but it makes sense, no? Read on...<p>"What I can say with conviction is that the person who wrote Redline's Technical Information brochure on "Water Wetter" knew what he or she was talking about. I have a Ph.D. in Heat Transfer and have taken a graduate course in Boiling and Condensation. Based on my training I can say that Redline's explanation of their product makes good scientific sense. First we must dispel a common misconception: "Water Wetter" is not designed to lower your car's bulk coolant temperature. So if you put it in your E30 M3 hoping to see lower operational coolant temp's, then you will probably be disappointed. "Water Wetter" is designed to reduce hot spots in your cylinder head. It does this by reducing the build-up of water vapor in any superheated areas. The bad thing about having hot spots in your cylinder head (read combustion chamber) is that they can promote pre-ignition - definitely a bad thing. This harks back to Smokey Yunick's theory of "soft combustion chambers". Any sharp edges in your combustion chamber (around valve seats for example) may tend to get very hot (even red hot) during operation. These areas of the combustion chamber can then form local hot spots in the cooling passages. Thus, even though your bulk coolant temperature is well below its boiling point (i.e. your gauge reads just fine), there may be localized boiling in some regions of the coolant tract. "<p>LTA<p>
 

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Re: (LTA)

Wetter Water is NOT good for a modern aluminum cooling system that doesn't get flushed out regularly.<br>Race cars only
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: (JRL)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wetter Water is NOT good for a modern aluminum cooling system that doesn't get flushed out regularly.<br>Race cars only</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Can you explain why?
 

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Re: (LTA)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wetter Water is NOT good for a modern aluminum cooling system that doesn't get flushed out regularly.<br>Race cars only</TD></TR></TABLE><p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>LTA</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Can you explain why?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I think it's because he's talking about "wetter water," not Water Wetter. Two different things. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (digital_dreamer)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>digital_dreamer</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>I think it's because he's talking about "wetter water," not Water Wetter. Two different things. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><br>I was, after reading twice. I didn't know there were TWO with reversed names
 

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I've always had good luck with water Wetter, doesn't make a huge difference but some. Used it on a big power turbo 4 cyl with very good results.
 

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Re: (BellevilleV70)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>BellevilleV70</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Used it on a big power turbo 4 cyl with very good results. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Such as.....?<p>less knock? less timing retard?
 

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Re: (JRL)

There was another product I used in a blown streed rod in the 90's with good results but I forget the name of it.<br>It DID keep the temps down idling with the A/C on
 

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Re: (phuz)

Less timing retard under hard use. Hard to do back to back tests, but noticeable watching the scanner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: (BellevilleV70)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>BellevilleV70</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Less timing retard under hard use. Hard to do back to back tests, but noticeable watching the scanner. </TD></TR></TABLE><p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was another product I used in a blown streed rod in the 90's with good results but I forget the name of it.<br>It DID keep the temps down idling with the A/C on</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Ah... finally some voices of reason!<p>Just to be clear, I'm talking about Water Wetter made by Redline. I found a <A HREF="http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0607htp_cooling_system_buyers_guide/" TARGET="_blank">link</A> that claims it meets "ASTM D2570 and D4340 heat/corrosion tests upheld by the OEMs"<p>Water Wetter and Aquamist, cheers to cool-running <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/embeer.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>LTA<br>
 
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