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Re: wastegate fiddling-- which direction? (SilverS60RNYC)

I think you should leave it alone, this is not a motronic
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: (Svenske Racing)

Quote, originally posted by Svenske Racing »
Don't do it.

And ESPECIALLY don't do it if you have an ECU... EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER

P L E A S E
uh oh...
why?
 

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Re: (Svenske Racing)

err, i have the same question, as I posted here previusly I have some turbo problems, and I need to know how the wastegate is suposed to be set, and how it is correct
 

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Re: (SilverS60RNYC)

Quote, originally posted by SilverS60RNYC »

uh oh...
why?

The Wastegate screw is set in the position that it needs to be in to allow the ECU to appropriatlely deal with and control boost at ~1 bar or a bit more.

When you change this, you can see uncontrolled spikes, possible additional boost (a tuned ECU is typically already set to as lean as is safe) which, when added without additional fuel to maintain a safe air / fuel ratio could potentially be catastrophic.

With a tuned ECU set to ~ 1.4 bar (19-20 psi), you can see spikes of up to 24 PSI.

This is typical, normal, and is agressive. However, (at least our) the ECU is set to add enough fuel to keep the engine safe.

Any gains you might be able to coax out of the ECU by fiddling with the wastegate screw will only do the following:

1) Make the engine that much more lean (more lean is bad, more rich is good... even more lean is *boom*)
2) Usually over-compensated by the ECU anyway. I.e., if the ECU thinks that it is providing 20psi, and your fiddling with the wastegate screw results in 22psi... it will over time adjust anyway, typically setting the boost BELOW the original boost level, and could potentially put it into *limp* mode.
3) Result in erradic boost, stressing both the turbo and the engine... as the ECU tries to figure out why the boost levels it is trying to set are not being kept accurate.
4) LOSE HP! Thats right! On a Stage One Svenske ECU... we found, due to the efficiency range of the turbocharger, etc., that 19-20psi was about as optimized as you can get. Setting it to 22-23psi actually showed a LOSS of HP... as the turbo was literally out of breath... and the top end really fell on its face.
5) Risk not getting the turbo set back properly to begin with.

Your should have the wastegate screw set at about 19-20 threads from the beginning... counting from the rubber line (facing the car) and counting towards the drivers seat on the wastegate threading.

Thats why
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: (Svenske Racing)

Quote, originally posted by Svenske Racing »


Your should have the wastegate screw set at about 19-20 threads from the beginning... counting from the rubber line (facing the car) and counting towards the drivers seat on the wastegate threading.

Thats why

that was the answer to my next question
 

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Re: (oskarom)

There is a small ridge further down the rod from the threads. The distance from that ridge to the face of the nut is typically 0.970 inches

Note: my internet connection is pretty shaky today
 

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Re: (Svenske Racing)

Quote, originally posted by Svenske Racing »
(a tuned ECU is typically already set to as lean as is safe)

With a tuned ECU set to ~ 1.4 bar (19-20 psi), you can see spikes of up to 24 PSI.

This is typical, normal, and is agressive. However, (at least our) the ECU is set to add enough fuel to keep the engine safe.

Messing with the wastegate on these cars is definately pointless not recommended at all ànd an exercise in futility as the ECU will compensate after a short while to the new wastegate setting. That is of course if the actuator hasnt been shortened so much the wastegate flapper cant open all the way anymore.

But so far every ECU upgrade (except speedtuning) I have come across has run too rich rather than too lean. It seems these tuning companies dont want to take chances and just program more fuel than necessary to make sure they cover the odd car which runs leaner than average from the factory or with injectors that dont deliver quite as much fuel as they used to.

Now, too rich is NOT a good thing. its not as harmful in the short run as running lean, but too much fuel can also cause detonation (though it really needs to be very rich then) and you can start washing your cyl walls when you run too rich, which isnt good for the engine either.
Basically your A/F needs to be close to what it should be if you want to take care of the machinery and make good power at the same time. Not lean, not rich.

Quote, originally posted by JRL »
this is not a motronic

then what is it??? lol...What do you think ME 7 stands for...
 

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Re: wastegate fiddling-- which direction? (SilverS60RNYC)

During my tuning, my wastegate had to be adjusted as the turbo was not holding the boost. It was showing peak at 1.25bar and fell to 0.9bar. The wastegate was adjusted 2 full turns, and a slight improvement was shown. The boost held better to about 1.05bar. Another 2 turns was added and now it holds fine at about 1.2 to 1.1 bar.

I hope Johan does not mind if I borrow his pic for illustration purposes. The wastegate was adjusted as shown.



The arrow indicates a direction of turn into the pic.
 

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Agreed, Kaminari

However, yours might have needed adjustment to begin with... our ECU will hold 1.3-1.4 bar steady without falling off...

1.1 bar? What car/ECU do you have? 1.1 bar is only 15.9-17.4 PSI... stock is ~14.

If you have an R... you should have NO PROBLEM whatsoever holding 1.3 bar w/out messing with your wastegate.

Of course, your mileage may vary.
 

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Re: (JCviggen)

Quote, originally posted by JCviggen »


But so far every ECU upgrade (except speedtuning) I have come across has run too rich rather than too lean. It seems these tuning companies dont want to take chances and just program more fuel than necessary to make sure they cover the odd car which runs leaner than average from the factory or with injectors that dont deliver quite as much fuel as they used to.


I wouldn't agree with this as a blanket statement. You can talk to SupraGuy... with a competitors ECU and our exhaust, he was running 14-15:1 a/f ratios BEFORE a downpipe with a wideband O2 meter.


We weren't even about to attempt a downpipe install on that car.

Also, is it BSR that states emphatically that you can not use a downpipe with their ECU upgrade? I haven't personally tried it... but the only reason I can think of is that it already runs so lean that adding a downpipe would lean out the mixture even more to unsafe levels!

However, I would agree that the basic ECU from, say, Powerchips is run a bit on the rich side... to be safe... it isn't as rich as stock...

We personally tune our ECUs to try and maintain a ~ 12.5:1 a/f ratio.

Best power on these cars is actually seen at ~ 13.0:1 a/f ratio.

However, this is a tad lean for a public release... although I personally don't have a problem running that lean. The VW motors also run very lean... and hold together just fine


 

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Re: (Svenske Racing)

Quote, originally posted by Svenske Racing »

Also, is it BSR that states emphatically that you can not use a downpipe with their ECU upgrade? I haven't personally tried it... but the only reason I can think of is that it already runs so lean that adding a downpipe would lean out the mixture even more to unsafe levels!

Well I run a RICA chip and I visited them after I changed to a 3" catless DP. They just took it onto the road with a boost gauge and it turned out to be fine according to them, so they didnt change anything. The turbo can spool a little too low down the revs with a 3", thats the main thing really.

Oh, very important : you will run a little richer after installing a 3" DP vs stock. It will not get any leaner at all, au contraire


My car in current tune is running too rich now, probably with a good margin too. I've been planning an appointment with RICA for ages now, dont seem to get round to it

Quote »

We personally tune our ECUs to try and maintain a ~ 12.5:1 a/f ratio.

Best power on these cars is actually seen at ~ 13.0:1 a/f ratio.

However, this is a tad lean for a public release... although I personally don't have a problem running that lean. The VW motors also run very lean... and hold together just fine



Agreed there. I wouldnt have much of a problem running 13:1 on an individually tuned car (though I'd prefer it a few tenths lower for peace of mind) but for an out-of-the-box chip 12 to 12.5 is where it's at. But its still hard to get without individually rolling each car
 

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Re: (Svenske Racing)

At 1.4 bar, the KKK 24 becomes inefficient....more hot air than anything else. Moreover, that's very close to the turbo's limits...chances of it blowing is quite high. With stock IC and at high ambient temps, the car is gonna lose even more power with the kind of high IAT I'm seeing. I'll stick to 1.3 to 1.25 bar until I get that FMIC from ya, then perhaps a different turbo.


OT: What other turbos have internal waste gates like the one we have? Any Garrets with them?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: (Svenske Racing)

Quote, originally posted by Svenske Racing »
Yeah... I think thats right. I'll double check on a turbo monday morning at the shop

the reason i was fiddling with it:
boost was coming on really late,around 4K RPM and i was maxing out at 15.4PSI most of the time. if i let off the throttle and stabbed it back in, it would spike to the 19-20psi. at the same time i noticed the lock nut was spinning free on the actuator rod. not sure how that happened, as i hadnt touched it.

i'm now seeing max sustained boost of 19.5PSI and spikes to 22psi. i hope i adjusted it right


(running a bsr ECU load)
 
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