SwedeSpeed - Volvo Performance Forum banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Came across this Volvo press release. Volvo says they will take full responsibility whenever their cars are self-driving.
Honestly, I still don't think cars will be allowed to completely self drive on public roads for several decades.

Simply too many issues and safety concerns - Equipment failure, hackers, poor infrastructure, interactions with non-
smart cars causing multi car accident because the autonomous cars occupant is not actively monitoring their surroundings.
Not until the day far in the future when all vehicles are interlinked do I see autonomous transportation being viable.

https://www.media.volvocars.com/glo...ide-federal-guidelines-for-autonomous-driving
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,356 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,418 Posts
no, the thread you referenced was started Oct 5.

The link by the OP was posted by Volvo Oct 7.

Besides, they are two completely different topics.

On that topic of responsibility, Volvo has to take responsibility if they want to get a head start in this area. I think they are also trying to help create the rules, which isn't a bad thing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
no, the thread you referenced was started Oct 5.

On that topic of responsibility, Volvo has to take responsibility if they want to get a head start in this area. I think they are also trying to help create the rules, which isn't a bad thing.
+1

The car companies will have to take responsibility for the outcomes of autonomous cars if the market is going to accept it. No educated owner is going to shoulder the cost of damage due to a malfunctioning algorithm.

To the OP's point about barriers, I really only see the first three as viable (equipment failure, hackers, poor infrastructure). If a self-driving car collides with a human-driven car, that is likely the best possible outcome of the situation since self-driving cars are not prone to risky behavior, road rage, or poor judgment. It may actually provide liability relief in cases where, for example, an erratic driver pulls in front of a car and slams on the brakes. If a human was driving, the car in the rear almost always gets the ticket, end of story. In a self-driving scenario, there could be more grounds that the driver in front caused the accident.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
I think its commendable that Volvo is willing to stand behind the technology and equipment. I am concerned however about sitting in 4000lbs+ of rolling mass. Will the technology be able to overcome stupidity in the other cars on the road, and something not often mentioned, how will the technology deal with weather impacts. i.e. Black ice, snow covered roads etc? I would be certain the legal loopholes regarding acts of nature would be a fairly large loophole.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,418 Posts
Now that I thought about it some more, I believe Volvo's attempt to get these cars on the road in 2017 is more of a headline grabber.

  • No infrastructure exists to support self driving cars. These vehicles require a robust system of information to maintain autonomy no matter what anybody says, even if the auto-drive part is only available on the express way. A car's sensors are just not enough information.
  • A true self driving car MUST have redundant systems, at least two for every system involved in autonomy, before any third party will insure it.
  • No oversight is established. Are we to rely on the car's self diagnostic system to determine its level of compliance for the needs of autonomous operation? (Have you seen some of the new XC90 threads?)


For those points, I can actually see the U.S. govt making laws restricting autonomous vehicles until rules are written governing the design and operation of these cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Here is an example of an avoidable accident I see happening. Two vehicles traveling on road in same direction.

Vehicle #1 autonomous car. Occupant distracted by reading a book, texting, shaving or whatever. Not 'Driving'.

Vehicle #2 Driver has issue(s) that cause him to lose control of vehicle - be it tire blows out, hot coffee spills
on lap or maybe animal darts into road.

Vehicle #2 swerve directly into other lane, causing accident. Now if occupant of vehicle #1 had been focused
on driving they may have been aware of what was happening around them, and been able to take measures
to avoid a crash between two vehicles. Saving both parties from damage and possible injury.

The best possible scenario would be if all drivers focused on what they are doing and on their surroundings.
I know, this is the real world and that does not happen. Just my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,670 Posts
Now that I thought about it some more, I believe Volvo's attempt to get these cars on the road in 2017 is more of a headline grabber.

- No infrastructure exists to support self driving cars. These vehicles require a robust system of information to maintain autonomy no matter what anybody says, even if the auto-drive part is only available on the express way. A car's sensors are just not enough information.
- A true self driving car MUST have redundant systems, at least two for every system involved in autonomy, before any third party will insure it.
- No oversight is established. Are we to rely on the car's self diagnostic system to determine its level of compliance for the needs of autonomous operation? (Have you seen some of the new XC90 threads?)

For those points, I can actually see the U.S. govt making laws restricting autonomous vehicles until rules are written governing the design and operation of these cars.
Volvo made it very clear the cars on the road in 2017 will be participating in a highly structured pilot project on a specially prepared route in Gothenburg to assess the technology, regulatory requirements, driver needs and acceptance. If it's successful, the test will be expanded to other areas with the appropriate infrastructure and regulatory support. Sales of autonomous cars to the general public is still many years away.


W.r.t redundancy,

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,418 Posts
Volvo made it very clear the cars on the road in 2017 will be participating in a highly structured pilot project on a specially prepared route in Gothenburg to assess the technology, regulatory requirements, driver needs and acceptance. If it's successful, the test will be expanded to other areas with the appropriate infrastructure and regulatory support. Sales of autonomous cars to the general public is still many years away.
I meant in the U.S.

On the redundancy issue, I believe Volvo will provide decent redundancy but will Kia? Chevy? VW (hahahahahaha)? I'm just saying a set of rules needs to be laid out. This specific reason is why the airline industry is so safe, regulation. Businesses hate it but the airline industry proves it works. Another example, nuclear power plants. Until Three Mile Island, the oversight of these sites was lacking, it took a disaster to wake people up. I don't want to see that happen with autonomous cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,289 Posts
My take on this is:
- First it is semi-autonomous, it is not fully autonomous. Driver has to be able to drive whenever needed.

- Today's ACC, Lane Keep Assist, and Auto Pilot Assist (at low speed) is already working on most freeway and city road. It may be possible to extend Auto Pilot Assist to freeway speed and XC90 2016 is then already semi-autonomous when road conditions are met. In bad weather, sorry driver has to drive.

- Drive-Me test has infrastructure requirement to fully utilize the potential. How to extend it to broader area is of course a challenge. I'd hope it can run on most freeway, while require driver to take over now and then if road is not optimally marked with necessary sensors. But this really depends if it can detect road condition change 1 minutes in advance (1.5 mile ahead). I am optimistic because Drive Me car has been tested on today's road without modification at least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,049 Posts
Here is an example of an avoidable accident I see happening. Two vehicles traveling on road in same direction.

Vehicle #1 autonomous car. Occupant distracted by reading a book, texting, shaving or whatever. Not 'Driving'.

Vehicle #2 Driver has issue(s) that cause him to lose control of vehicle - be it tire blows out, hot coffee spills
on lap or maybe animal darts into road.

Vehicle #2 swerve directly into other lane, causing accident. Now if occupant of vehicle #1 had been focused
on driving they may have been aware of what was happening around them, and been able to take measures
to avoid a crash between two vehicles. Saving both parties from damage and possible injury.

The best possible scenario would be if all drivers focused on what they are doing and on their surroundings.
I know, this is the real world and that does not happen. Just my opinion.
Why do you think a human driver would avoid this accident and a robot driver would not? Would the human driver be able to "see" into the next car and see the coffee spilled? No. There is nothing about a human driver that tells me that the human-driven car will perform better than the robot-driven car. The robot driven car will detect the "swerve" before any human would, and the robot driven car's evasive action would consider many many more options than 99.999999% of all human can. Remember, the robot-driven car will know it's entire "envelope" in real time; whereas the best a human does is know his envelope every few seconds (when we scan our mirrors). I'll take a robot''s full information approach over most human's fairly lousy approach, any day. When the car next to you swerves, it's probably 50-50 that you will take the right evasive action. Most likely you'll simply slam on the brakes and steer in the opposite direction from where the swerving car is coming from.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Why do you think a human driver would avoid this accident and a robot driver would not? Would the human driver be able to "see" into the next car and see the coffee spilled? No. There is nothing about a human driver that tells me that the human-driven car will perform better than the robot-driven car. The robot driven car will detect the "swerve" before any human would, and the robot driven car's evasive action would consider many many more options than 99.999999% of all human can. Remember, the robot-driven car will know it's entire "envelope" in real time; whereas the best a human does is know his envelope every few seconds (when we scan our mirrors). I'll take a robot''s full information approach over most human's fairly lousy approach, any day. When the car next to you swerves, it's probably 50-50 that you will take the right evasive action. Most likely you'll simply slam on the brakes and steer in the opposite direction from where the swerving car is coming from.

Volvo sensors [for auto braking & pre-collision] are located in the front and back of vehicle. A collision coming from the SIDE will not activate auto braking. While the Volvo's side sensor will detect a car in your side perimeter, that is all it can do. It can do nothing to prevent impact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
Volvo sensors [for auto braking & pre-collision] are located in the front and back of vehicle. A collision coming from the SIDE will not activate auto braking. While the Volvo's side sensor will detect a car in your side perimeter, that is all it can do. It can do nothing to prevent impact.

The perimeter sensors will prompt the car to automatically move away out of the trajectory of the car swerving into the side area.
It may be that the current XC-90 does not have these sensors or capability but it is already available on all Mercedes. In this video you can see it in action on the Mercedes C class:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFtCB3m6SY
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
763 Posts
Now that I thought about it some more, I believe Volvo's attempt to get these cars on the road in 2017 is more of a headline grabber.
Of course it is. They're trying to stay relevant in a country where much of their target demographic (men and women between 25 and 45 making 50k-100k/yr) either go to Subaru for safety, Toyota/Honda for reliability, or MB/Audi/BMW/Lexus for luxury.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
39,263 Posts
Of course it is. They're trying to stay relevant in a country where much of their target demographic (men and women between 25 and 45 making 50k-100k/yr) either go to Subaru for safety, Toyota/Honda for reliability, or MB/Audi/BMW/Lexus for luxury.
Unbelievable........:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,049 Posts
Volvo sensors [for auto braking & pre-collision] are located in the front and back of vehicle. A collision coming from the SIDE will not activate auto braking. While the Volvo's side sensor will detect a car in your side perimeter, that is all it can do. It can do nothing to prevent impact.
Ok, so now that you've established that you don't understand the technology, are you considering learning more about the issue before you state an uninformed opinion? Maybe?

Besides, even if you were right today (which you are not), what is to stop Volvo or any other company from adding another sensor or two and then doing exactly what you think is impossible?

The ONLY real obstacles, today, are (1) weather; (2) hand-directions from police and the like (i.e., detour around an accident site); (3) politics (which includes liability - and Volvo has now thrown down the gauntlet on this). The obstacles you imagine are no longer obstacles.

Hard to imagine you think that you can avoid a swerve caused by hot coffee spilled in the next car better than a machine that can react 100,000X faster than you can. Are you Superman? You'd have to be Superman who also has the power to read minds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,665 Posts

The perimeter sensors will prompt the car to automatically move away out of the trajectory of the car swerving into the side area.
It may be that the current XC-90 does not have these sensors or capability but it is already available on all Mercedes. In this video you can see it in action on the Mercedes C class:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFtCB3m6SY
The Tesla Model X has a side impact avoidance technology already implemented as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,665 Posts
Unbelievable........:rolleyes:
What is so Unbelievable?

Sept 2015 US Sales:
Volvo: 5,527
Subaru: 53, 070
Toyota: 194,399
Honda:119,046
MB:27,315
Audi: 17,340
Lexus:25,294

Volvo is not even in the same ballpark as everyone else.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top