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This may have been discussed before, but I was just curious if anyone has tried running E85 in their car....
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (nobbe3728)

Why? It's useless. Don't waste your time with it. No matter what GM says, Ethanol is certainly not the future. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Majisto)

Interesting Majisto. I have read a few(one or two) data reviews. And have<br>have not yet seen enough to make me fall off the fence one way or the other. What do you think of it in plain terms or what did you see that makes it a waste of time. And makes you feel "Ethanol is certainly not the future"? Very interested in this as nothing I have see or read sways me just yet this early. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Nato740)

Very interesting....<p> GM has been building flex-fuel cars for Brazil for awhile now. Brazil only uses the ethanol it produces from the sugarcane it grows to power their cars.. they are now basically free from fossil fuel.<p>Ethanol is the next logical step for us....hydrogen is too far away yet...at least with ethanol, we can produce it out of renewable resources, here in the country. Although it burns faster. it is much cheaper.<p><br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by nobbe3728 at 7:08 AM 3-20-2006</i>
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (nobbe3728)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>nobbe3728</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Very interesting....<p>Brazil is now free of oil, they ONLY produce ethanol from sugarcane to power their cars.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>And how do your cars run over there?
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (MadeInJapan)

Ethanol does not have the BTU of gasoline. Why dilute the gasoline with something that makes it run more inefficiently? Your gas mileage will drop, and there goes any money you might save. I'm not sure about emissions, but I doubt it matters. Ethanol has been around for a long time. My Taurus was a flex fuel. You see it pushed by the corn farmer lobbyists like ADM. You can keep the money ADM.<p>The logical next step is biodiesel. It is made from various vegetables oils and can be mixed with very low percentages of diesel fuel (Mostly there I believe to help cold starting) unlike the ethanol which can only be about 15% of the gasoline mix. Biodiesel also lubricates better than diesel, it has cleaner emissions, gives you the same power, and it actually can be cost effective because your gas mileage does not drop.
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Majisto)

Again I will ask. What have you read and can relate in fact form from a source that makes "it is not the way of the future" a real comment. All i see is that it is diluted (with no what it is with) and runs in thoery less efficiently with no HARD data. LPG has less BTU's as well like you state ethanol has. But what has that got to do with your statement or facts to support it. I see your statement about lobbyists hawking corn feed Taurus. JUST like i see them hawking LPG Taurus. But no support in fact of its being a in the long run, in facts a bad thing. I also see "I'm not sure about emissions, but I doubt it matters". That is a very wide and rather uneducated nor doing much to educate us on your point statement. Emissons do not matter jsut because you have no data on what they are? I also see "ethanol has been around for along time" statement. SO WHAT! so has the Diesel and biodiesel you then go into supporting as the next logical step. If diesel and biodiesel tech can be getting better and more appealing to the masses now, then why can ethanol not be jsut as more cutting edge with better tech? You give no FACTS and alot of conjecture and no data. I asked for some and you can not support any. I have not read anything(like i said) yet that supports or does not support the at least looking into ethanol for its maybe or maybe not future. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> If you are then only going to jump on the it has less MPG band wagon. Then you might wish to also condem electric cars for there totally short range and use potential as well. Please do something real and tangable to support your statement or get off the stage. Bush does a better job of supporting(even when he gets the facts/data wrong he has them, or something to show for it) his points then you have. And that is saying something really! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/rolleyes.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Nato740)

What I want to know is how much energy is used to distill the crops to produce ethanol and how much energy is in it at the end! All the energy used to cultivate it MUST be included!<p>If the energy to produce it is not less than what it provides, it's NOT viable as a fuel and only lines the pockets of ADM.
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (VolvoBob)

Now there is a very well put reply. And another rebuttel question as well for him with mine and the others. Thank you VolvoBob.
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (gdill2)

How much area would be needed to grow enough plant material to get the equivilant of a gallon of gas?<p>Now that we filled up every available bit of land to grown plants for gas, what about food to eat. Just watch the price of that go up.<p>Just think of all that fertile land covered up by housing developments and the roads to get to them. Sorry you can't have a lawn we need to grow Soy.<p>They shut down Shorham and the price of electricity on Long Island is astronomical.<p>We need a real energy policy that not created by big business.
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (VolvoBob)

Energy policy makers in the former Soviet Union gave up trying to dictate to big business. The free market dictates what gets an investment and what does not. Governments can only interfere trying to predict and place priorities. Ultimately, the consumer is the policy maker using spent (or withheld) monies to dictate what gets sold and what not. When a bureaucracy interferes with the free market we get subsidized goats and unenforceable regulations.<p>George Dill<p><br>
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Majisto)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why? It's useless. Don't waste your time with it. No matter what GM says, Ethanol is certainly not the future. </TD></TR></TABLE><br>Minnesota Fuel Prices: <br><IMG SRC="http://images.publicradio.org/content/2006/03/17/20060317_e85pump_2.jpg" BORDER="0"> <br>Brazilian Fuel Prices: <br><IMG SRC="http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/17/images/answer.jpg" BORDER="0"> <br>There were several manufactures that were poo-pooing Toyota's gas-electric hybrids and now everybody want on that wagon regardless of the net results for consumers. Brazil has cushioned their dependence on foreign oil to the point that it barely fluctuates even with the war in Iraq they even export ethanol to Japan and China. Considering that Ford and GM got E85 started around 1984, maybe we will get somewhere in the next 20 years. Doing something has got to beat doing nothing at all, unless you work for big oil interests. <br><b>QUICK STATS:</b> <br>Couple of notes from Wikpedia on E85 (not that it is the end all of authorities on anything.) <br>- <A HREF="http://www.volvocars.se/Showroom/newS40/s40_v50_flexifuel.htm" TARGET="_blank">European Volvo S40 and V50 are E85 compliant (why would you skip the US market?).</A> <br>- E85 produces more energy per gallon than gasoline. Octane rating is 105 (that would be sweet if it would work in my R!). <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/eek.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>- <A HREF="http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/energy.php" TARGET="_blank">Energy to produce a gallon of E85 is less than energy output of gallon of E85</A> - Gasoline has a negative 20% return on energy invested to produce a gallon. E85 has a positive value of +38% (138% return on energy to produce 1 gallon). Along with reduced emmitions, E85 looks to be a promising start. <br>Those stats seem pretty hard to poo-poo.<p>- Polartek
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Majisto)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Majisto</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ethanol does not have the BTU of gasoline. </TD></TR></TABLE> <br>The E85 energy results are kind of weird - <br><A HREF="http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/range.php" TARGET="_blank"> You end up with more HP due to higher octane rating, but you get less fuel economy because the cars are not tuned to take advantage of the fuel and it does have less energy per gallon.</A> The future of FFV's looks good, the SAAB concept car has a higher compression ratio in the engine and results in equal or <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85" TARGET="_blank">better gas milage with E85 than it gets on normal fuel.</A><br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Why dilute the gasoline with something that makes it run more inefficiently? </TD></TR></TABLE> <br>Reduced emissions? You still end up with a cleaner burning fuel (less harmful elements) per equal amount of energy units burnt and that's a good thing. <br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Your gas mileage will drop, and there goes any money you might save. I'm not sure about emissions, but I doubt it matters. </TD></TR></TABLE> <br><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85" TARGET="_blank">Currently E85 is subsidized by skipping certain Federal and state taxes. The result is gas that is about 20-35% cheaper which is the break even point to cover your loss in MPG</A> <br><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You see it pushed by the corn farmer lobbyists like ADM. You can keep the money ADM.</TD></TR></TABLE> <br>Vs. giving it to middle eastern governments, I will support ADM (they are not owned by the UAE, are they? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"> ) <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The logical next step is bio-diesel. It is made from various vegetables oils and can be mixed with very low percentages of diesel fuel (Mostly there I believe to help cold starting) unlike the ethanol which can only be about 15% of the gasoline mix. Bio-diesel also lubricates better than diesel, it has cleaner emissions, gives you the same power, and it actually can be cost effective because your gas mileage does not drop.</TD></TR></TABLE> <br>???? E85 uses 85% ethanol in the summer blend and about 70% in the winter blend. I am not against bio-diesel, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio-diesel#Efficiency_and_economic_arguments" TARGET="_blank">but the energy return vs energy required to produce appears to be break even where as bioethanol is a positive return.</A> <br>Considering that you can use gasoline or E85 on FFV's and diesel/bio-diesel on diesel fuel vehicles, they both seem to play a part of the jigsaw puzzle to get us free of our dependence on foreign oil. <p>- Polartek<br>
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (Polartek)

Thank you Polartek. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Just to let you know Popular Mechanics has a good article on alternate fuels in their May 2006 issue. It includes some figures on converting corn to ethanol. If we were to replace all our gasoline with it, 71% of the nations farmland would have to be turned over to growing corn. It should be noted that growing one crop on the same land is a farming NO NO. Just some food for thought if there's any land left to grow that.
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (VolvoBob)

so you know a lot, when crop rotation is utilized, are mung beans useful for the production of ethanol?<p>this is a smart question, not a smart ass question, my wife got her phd in biology at stoney brook doing this type work.<p>it is just a question.
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (hastee)

I know nothing about mung beans, I'm just tring to make a point that pegging our indepenance from foreign oil is not as cut and dry as switching to ethanol. <p>
 

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ethanol is aggressive to aluminium so there are problems with the volvo 5 and 6 cylinder engines<p>The S40 flexifuel uses a ford unit modified to cope with ethanol<p>Ethanol has a higher octane hence you get more performance from the car even though the energy per litre of ethanol is less than petrol<p>S
 

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Re: Volvo and ethanol (VolvoBob)

Are the PM figures talking a 100% conversion to ethanol? I don't think a 100% reduction in foreign oil imports or switch to ethanol sounds like a reasonable goal. I am sure the Brazilian cars get better mileage than most US vehicles and they still import foreign oil, but the ethanol they are growing and brewing locally has made a impact on how much they import and greatly lessened the impact of external political and market events on the price that they pay at the pump. <p>I know the recent GM/US E85 campaign has stressed E85 made from corn, but the Brazilian E85 and other <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85" TARGET="_blank">newer tech ethanol production processes are heading toward making E85 from plant cellulose/woody biomass/herbatious biosmass making it more feasible to produce E85 in mass and improving the amout of energy output from gained from theses sources. </A><p>- Polartek
 
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