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I continue:

Volvo Parts Webstore, again. List 3309 for XC90 -2013. This includes 6-cyl and V8. Note also that it accurately has all of the P3 chassis fluid changeovers to Type-WS. The "Chassis number break" is too inconsistent to be real.


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Do the same for 31256774, the 1 liter WS fluid. I agree, it's confusing.

No definitive reason either wouldn't work is there? Perhaps someone can dig into that.
 

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Torque has trans temp but it's passive (or whatever you'd call it), so for my P2 S60 and P3 XC60, it's always exactly the same as the coolant temp, which is not accurate for true trans temps
What do you mean by passive? I have the Torque app and I have been using it to get the trans temp. I had assume the transmission fluid temp would almost always be in sync with the coolant since there's a cooler ATF line running inside the radiator. So heat exchange between the 2 fluids is happening always. Correct me if my assumption is wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
So we have VIDA and a tech journal saying 3309?..... and we're going with what the internet says?

-Ryan
Well, if you go into the VIDA, the parts list there also has the VIN description, not just the interwebs. You can continue your clear tirade if you'd like. It's a free forum. We work with what we have.

In the meantime, what would be your suggestions?
 

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What do you mean by passive? I have the Torque app and I have been using it to get the trans temp. I had assume the transmission fluid temp would almost always be in sync with the coolant since there's a cooler ATF line running inside the radiator. So heat exchange between the 2 fluids is happening always. Correct me if my assumption is wrong.
Well, I've only had the pleasure of changing radiators in a P3 so I don't claim to be an expert, I can say for sure on my xc60, there is no transmission line in the radiator. If anything you'll have an external mount trans radiator.
But that's besides the point.

What I mean is, in vida you can pull actual transmission temp, it's part of the fluid change process in the P3. Engine will get up to temp in normal time, but the trans fluid takes a lot longer.

Now granted, I never checked trans temps in my S60's in vida, but the fact that at any given moment, in any driving condition, the value displayed in torque being precisely identical for engine temp and transmission temp, doesn't instill confidence that it's accurate.

I drove through mountains hard and torque was always identical readings, now this is just my experience but there's no way the radiator was that efficient in perfectly managing the transmission temps to the exact fraction of degree.

But, I've been wrong about other things
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Just to add to the confusion, or to add to the year-method is the way to determine the correct fluid, take a look on Aisin's catalog. For XC90 3.2, T-IV is listed up to 2012 models, then it changes to WS in 2013.
https://aisinaftermarket.com/english/onlineparts.html

A search on Idemitsu's catalog uses T-IV for 2013 XC90s.
https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/idemitsu/atf-cvtf/atf

Then the TJ that John C is referencing, it indicates "*New info in red text." but the fluid for 2013- XC90s is not in red, but black. So, the info is not a change for the 2014 TJ that T-IV might be used up to 2012?
https://testing-public.carmd.com/Tsb/Download/129497/TJ16773-2014-03-20

Here are some TJs referring the 2013 transmission issues ggleavitt mentioned. The 275 vehicle Type is the P2 XC90:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2014/SB-10055532-9962.pdf from 2014 already linked in this thread
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10165235-9999.pdf from 2019 updated


If there is anything that new members will see from past and present threads is the diligence SwedeSpeed members go through.
 

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Then the TJ that John C is referencing, it indicates "*New info in red text." but the fluid for 2013- XC90s is not in red, but black. So, the info is not a change for the 2014 TJ that T-IV might be used up to 2012?
https://testing-public.carmd.com/Tsb/Download/129497/TJ16773-2014-03-20
So, why hasn't the TJ been updated? And, why, in 12-2012 did they update it specifically to include the exception for XC90's up to 2013? (That was the only change.)
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” - Alan Greenspan
 

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“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” - Inigo Montoya


2010 xc90 3.2 | 2008 xc 70 3.2
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Then the TJ that John C is referencing, it indicates "*New info in red text." but the fluid for 2013- XC90s is not in red, but black. So, the info is not a change for the 2014 TJ that T-IV might be used up to 2012?
https://testing-public.carmd.com/Tsb/Download/129497/TJ16773-2014-03-20
So, why hasn't the TJ been updated? And, why, in 12-2012 did they update it specifically to include the exception for XC90's up to 2013? (That was the only change.)
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” - Alan Greenspan
Ok John C. Your picture of the fluid chart shows the XC90 2013+ fluid in black lettering. Was also going off of what you provided. Could you clarify it then.
 

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Do the same for 31256774, the 1 liter WS fluid. I agree, it's confusing.

No definitive reason either wouldn't work is there? Perhaps someone can dig into that.
You'd think the "ULTIMATE LIST" Feller would have this figured out.

All I can offer is anecdotal info. A guy on the XC60 forum (XC60's are cut and dry here) went with 3309 where WS is clearly started, and he immediately had shift flares and other problems. These problems went away immediately upon switching back. That I'm not having the same problem running 3309 in a "late" XC90 suggests that something different is happening.

-Ryan
 

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Well, if you go into the VIDA, the parts list there also has the VIN description, not just the interwebs. You can continue your clear tirade if you'd like. It's a free forum. We work with what we have.

In the meantime, what would be your suggestions?
Dude. If you're going to "ultimate list" you should have this stuff sorted. I called my tirade a tirade because I know how to laugh at myself. All I did was a data dump same as you.

Here's my takeaway:

TJ 16773: 3309 until the 2013 model year. This even has all the fluids correct back to like the 1980's. This is dated MARCH 2014!!
VIDA: 3309 past at least 2011. (I still got it through 2013 in VIDA 2014D).
Volvo parts Webstore (Volvo dealership much better tapped into Volvos parts network than Tasca, sadly): 3309 through 2013. They even have all the 3.2L, 2.5T's, and V8's separate.

The infamous chassis number break: It appears far to often to be real. If you enter any model year online, you get the chassis number thing. How can this be? Chassis number 563000 can only exist in a single model year. Chassis number is a red herring, IMHO. In what year does this chassis number even exist?

I think this is easy: 3309 through 2013. VIDA does list 2013 and 2013A as separate model years. Something is going on there.

I'm still running Ravenol 3309 in my 2011, and she's happy as a large, 4-wheeled clam. I'll be the first one to chime in if/when the trans grenades on me. I'm not above a high priced plate of crow. :)

Last observation: I noticed the GM trans listed on the TJ. Years and years ago when I was wrenching on XC90's I knew the GM trans on the old T6's was awful. It wasn't until I saw a bunch of GM trans tear downs that I realized how awful these things were. I can't believe Volvo used them.

-Ryan
 

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Ok John C. Your picture of the fluid chart shows the XC90 2013+ fluid in black lettering. Was also going off of what you provided. Could you clarify it then.
No clarification is needed. A March 2014 Volvo technical journal (which covers every automatic gearbox that Volvo has used since Borg-Warner became Aisin-Warner in the early-1980's) lists 2005-2012 XC90's as using 3309. It can't be more clear than this. The specter of Chassis 563000 isn't mentioned. I contend the reason for the chassis number omission is because it's not a thing.

I do wonder if you clear out all the transmission's adaptations in VIDA if it'll be happy with either fluid.

Either way, IMHO, a Volvo Tech Journal is the proverbial rock to the scissors that is this "Ultimate Fluid Guide".

-Ryan
 

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Discussion Starter #53
So, this guide really started as a guide and asking for input to help the guide. I can see it was steered to proving one's information contest and we should change that. There is conflicting/confusing information from Volvo and Swedespeed's members. Let's refocus because neither of us are right or wrong, unless we have an official comment.

Specifically for John C and RyanR since I have asked several times:
-What would you suggest to determine which fluid to use?
-Also, over the years, have either of you called some of the dealerships to find out more information?

I just called a dealership parts department (instead of debating the same documents over and over again) and the parts department cannot help me because I do not have a full VIN of a vehicle that falls in the 2011-2012 range. I tried to make up a VIN using part of my 2008 VIN #, and tagging the last 6 digits that came later than #568001 (per the fluid part description), but it did not work in their system. The person at the parts dept. said they need the full VIN to get the transmission serial # to give a more specific answer on the fluid. He also said using the year isn't specific for something like transmission fluid (general things like oil filters in large part are ok) and parts dept. can't look up TJs because that has to be looked-up in service.

I also messaged FCP of the differing information and waiting to see if they can get more info, not just trying to get comments from someone at Volvo, but since they also provide aftermarket fluids.

From my original post:
'Thought I would post this for the archives and searching as the "ultimate guide" since there has been a recent trend of people using the wrong fluid. I don't like to use the term "ultimate," but it just might garner more attention.'
This thread started because people were using MaxLife, which hopefully it did prevent some members from using. There also wasn't a guide out there and the other threads are confusing too. Can we come together and make something good here?

BTW:
an·ec·do·tal
/ˌanəkˈdōdl/ adjective (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
-Oxford Languages
 

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I appreciate all the information provided and in the end the forum user needs to make their own decision.

The level of detail and counter argument is fantastic information. I love the activity versus one or two lines of recommendation and no backup information.

Another forum that comes to mind that I have read similar conversation is Bob the Oil Guy.


2010 xc90 3.2 | 2008 xc 70 3.2
 

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What do you mean by passive? I have the Torque app and I have been using it to get the trans temp. I had assume the transmission fluid temp would almost always be in sync with the coolant since there's a cooler ATF line running inside the radiator. So heat exchange between the 2 fluids is happening always. Correct me if my assumption is wrong.
You're not /wrong/ per-se. I've been using my CFE to monitor transmission & coolant temps (Same PIDs used by VIDA). In the ~30F MN temperatures right now, when my 14 XC90 3.2 is up to temp I'm seeing coolant temps between 180-200F and trans temps between 120-145F. They're further off than I expected.
 

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So, this guide really started as a guide and asking for input to help the guide. I can see it was steered to proving one's information contest and we should change that. There is conflicting/confusing information from Volvo and Swedespeed's members. Let's refocus because neither of us are right or wrong, unless we have an official comment.
So proving one's information is wrong in a thread where there is question about what fluid to use?

Specifically for John C and RyanR since I have asked several times:
-What would you suggest to determine which fluid to use?
-Also, over the years, have either of you called some of the dealerships to find out more information?
I posted this above. Breathe in and out. No need to see red. We're cool. Yes. I've called several dealerships. Service departments and Parts departments are hard to nail down on the phone.

He also said using the year isn't specific for something like transmission fluid (general things like oil filters in large part are ok) and parts dept. can't look up TJs because that has to be looked-up in service.
Fairly standard dealership response. This was true in the early 1980's.

BTW:
an·ec·do·tal
/ˌanəkˈdōdl/ adjective (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
-Oxford Languages
I can only imaging the this is directed at me. This is why I used the term anecdotal to refer to information based on personal accounts. I also qualified it with having a tidbit of info as being only anecdotal.

-Ryan
 

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Ok John C. Your picture of the fluid chart shows the XC90 2013+ fluid in black lettering. .... Could you clarify it then.
I posted the most recent version of the TJ. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Then, in the body of the text I mentioned that the TJ had been previously updated, in December of 2012, to specifically exclude the XC90s through MY 2012.

Old TJ.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #58
After reaching out to FCP, this was their response:

"Hello,

The Volvo catalog section has done a fair amount of research on this, and the application guides on these parts have been double checked for accuracy. There was definitely a period of inconsistency regarding the exact switchover time in Volvo's documentation, but in the long run, we are using the most up to date VIDA information to build the fitment guides of these fluids and trust this information to be the most accurate. These two specs are very similar in chemical composition, with the main difference being the WS fluid is specifically designed to lower internal friction and increase fuel mileage (much along the same lines as the 0w20 engine oil and high tire pressures outlined in the manual). Presumably, the change was made only to improve fuel economy and pad those NHSTA numbers. You may notice that the TF80SC actually used both JWS3309 and WS without any major or fundamental changes in transmission design. Please follow our fitment guide when buying fluid, if you are concerned about mixing, look up the flushing method that cycles new fluid in while the car is running through the cooler line to get the most complete service. The only vehicles we see with shifting problems are ones that have had limited or no fluid change service, so the most important thing is to change the fluid.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions!"


I then replied about how Aisin shows in their catalog using T-IV up to 2012. Still waiting on a reply with that.
FCP recommends to use the VIN cutoff. I am merely the messenger on this information.
 

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After reaching out to FCP, this was their response:

...These two specs are very similar in chemical composition, with the main difference being the WS fluid is specifically designed to lower internal friction and increase fuel mileage (much along the same lines as the 0w20 engine oil and high tire pressures outlined in the manual). Presumably, the change was made only to improve fuel economy and pad those NHSTA numbers. You may notice that the TF80SC actually used both JWS3309 and WS without any major or fundamental changes in transmission design...
My (own) interpretation of this, assuming it is true, is it doesn't matter a tinker's damn which fluid you use, as far as the transmission is concerned, but the WS fluid might give you a small improvement in fuel consumption. Could that be at the expense of wear on the transmission? I'm sure we could go just as far with that as we have with this question.

My recommendation? Who knows? There is no more supporting documentation for one over the other, IMHO, but now it looks like it doesn't matter. Or, at least, we have another door to choose from. So, I'm going to go ahead and use the 3309 I bought and not look back. If it blows up, at 176K+ miles, I won't be too upset.
 
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