[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

Quote, originally posted by JoeLvo »

Basically, Bernie and co. are just tailor making this season to be exactly what they wanted to be. They've granted a technical upper-hand to the few teams they told the diffusers were ok, and hamstrung the teams they told the diffusers were illegal. It's really simple, actually. They wanted F1 to be about every team, not just the big ones, and knowing that can never happen, they decided to fabricate it. Like I said, sleeping in from now on. And who knows, this is so disgusting it may turn me away, and I'm a long-time follower of F1. When McCheaters were allowed to keep their drivers points when they cheated and gained an advantage, I was very annoyed. But this, this is simply social engineering on an F1 level, and no, the FIA is not smarter than me and cannot pull this fast one on me. Modified by JoeLvo at 3:59 PM 4-15-2009

I can tell you are frustrated with the sport; you are not the only one.

Bernie needs to go; I don't think anyone is willing to dispute that anymore. His expiration date is way overdue.

Max and his cronies in the FIA need to be replaced by fresh minds with sound ideas.

But this affirmative ruling for the "Diffuser Three" is one of the few rulings that the FIA has done right lately and to be honest, what we have been witnessing thus far in 2009 has been a breath of fresh air to a sport that has been exhausting fans for some time. You can claim all of your conspiracies about what Bernie, Max and Co are trying engineer but at the end of the day, you're just speculating. Perhaps you should just consider the possibility that 3 teams made a great decision with their interpretations of the rear diffuser and 7 did not...including my beloved Ferrari

 

[JoeLvo]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Quote, originally posted by thesternowl »

Joe, That is not true. A true statement should read: "Several teams have gone on record as knowing that this solution would provide greater downforce at the rear of the car but instead chose to take a more conservative approach in their respective diffuser design."

Um, the teams have said themselves what they were told by the FIA. So not to be argumentative, but why are you so sure that the reason the other teams didn't employ the open diffuser was that they were not smart enough to do so?

Think about it, Adrian Newey's team didn't go with the open diffuser. Why not? Because they were told, outright, by the FIA that that solution was illegal. The teams involved in the wording of the regs for this season also had this clarified for them while the regs were being debated and drawn up.

Again, I don't blame BrawnGP in any way, but I certainly won't pretend they're the only team that thought of the open diffuser, or that it's down to their innovation that they have it while all the other teams save 2 don't have the open diffuser.

The FIA, after telling certain teams that an open diffuser was illegal, should have clarified the rules then. there was no way they were going to say anything other than "yes, they are legal" at this point, even though they've done so in the past (moveable floorboords anyone?), and even changed TESTING methods to ensure that the SPIRIT of the regs are not contravened. What I'm saying they should have done, would have been consistent with nearly every other "clarification" the FIA has meeted out.

I don't want to sound like I'm hating on BrawnGP, becasue I'm not. I'm hating on the duplicitous nature of the FIA, and the fact that it will cost us a season of competition (there is none this season, ok, maybe for 2nd place).

::edit::

And in actuality, Brawn did his due diligence by bringing the open diffuser issue to the attention of the FIA back in the winter and they told him to "go away". This is the same winter when they told Red Bull that an open diffuser was illegal. So again, kudos to BrawnGP for winning the 2009 championship, but all credit for the fact that 7 out of 10 teams were totally uncompetitive rests in the hands of the FIA (yes, past-tense used for hyperbolic effect

)

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

Quote, originally posted by JoeLvo »

So not to be argumentative, but why are you so sure that the reason the other teams didn't employ the open diffuser was that they were not smart enough to do so?

Where did I claim that the other teams (those that chose the conservative route) were not smart enough to take the double diffuser approach?

You know very well what I said

Modern Formula 1 teams are very well informed of the rules and regulations that are written to govern their car designs and all have very intelligent people weighing myriad design solutions and making very carefully considered decisions.

If the double diffuser design was truly illegal, there would not have been 3 teams bold enough to field 6 cars with these diffusers.

Maybe one team with one car...I might buy that. But certainly not 3 teams with 6 cars.

 

[850arrrsaylikepirate]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Ok enough diffuser this and that.

Did you see that Bridgestone is bringing the super soft tire to China?!?!?

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/he...shtml

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

oh boy

 

[Needsdecaf]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Bring back the tire manufacturer wars..

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »

Bring back the tire manufacturer wars..

Exactly. This is why a single tire manufacturer is a bad idea.

 

[850arrrsaylikepirate]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

The days of Michelin vs Birdgestone were intriguing. I wouldn't mind having another tire manufacturer in F1, but with the current F1 cost cutting bull, it will never happen.

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

Welp...it's shaping up to be another sour weekend for Ferrari.

Brawn looks strong; as does Williams.

 

[850arrrsaylikepirate]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Ferrari is in a tailspin at the moment, diffuser or not.

Their KERS is out, they have no grip and their team tactics or pookey (such as not getting Massa out in qualifying correctly).

They will recover but this season may not be the best for them.

 

[JoeLvo]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

Quote, originally posted by 850arrrsaylikepirate »

Ferrari is in a tailspin at the moment, diffuser or not. Their KERS is out, they have no grip and their team tactics or pookey (such as not getting Massa out in qualifying correctly). They will recover but this season may not be the best for them.

Agreed. I've seen them get off to poor starts before, as have we all. But there seems to be more dire talk this season than others. Desperation, even. I don't mind the mistake with Kimi's full-wets, that was a gamble for sure, but I'm ok with them gambling and losing. I'm not ok with the Massa "we're fast enough to sit the rest of Q1 out" mistake. For that error, I would have rolled some heads. Or something similarly severe.

McLaren are sucking big fat baboon ba!!s too, this season, so I believe there is definitely something to the comments that the leaders last season are paying the price for lack of 2009 develo0pment last season. In a nutshell, this season is likely going to end early (as far as the championship goes) because nobody will be able to design their car around the double-decker diffuser, they will only be able to add it the best way they can. BrawnGP looks to heve it sewn-up.

Hopefully the big teams wills start working on their 2010 challengers early, so they'll have a chance next season. What I can't believe though, is that race fans actually enjoy the fabricated passing and the clear winner being known before the race starts. If I hear another "Great Race!" comment after a completely boring, pole to checkered race, I'm gonna scream.

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

Who would have thought that Red Bull would get their first pole position this weekend? I'll tell you what, they are a team that is constantly improving...and improving without a double diffuser.

Vettel: I have really enjoyed watching your career unfold thus far and the best has yet to come; a great young talent and a class act!

Raikkonen: Thank you for piping Hamilton; unfortunately that's about the only thing I can say for Ferrari at the moment

 

[Needsdecaf]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Quote, originally posted by thesternowl »

Raikkonen: Thank you for piping Hamilton; (

 

[Needsdecaf]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

So much for the big diffuser advantage.

RB, Renault, RB.

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

I guess the top three are running light...

 

[thesternowl]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Incredible result! Vettel, Webber 1 & 2!

Great effort by Red Bull Racing.

Adrian Newey can build a winning racer without the "trick" diffuser; Ferrari?

 

[JoeLvo]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Shame for Felipe. He again, showed that his critics are basically haters. The guy ran up the field in the wet, only to have his car let him down while running as high as 3rd. So much for Hammy being the rain man, Hammy spun and Felipe didn't. They both had picked up around 6 places when Felipe's Ferrari quit him.

Vettel is the real rain-man in the field. He is a future champion. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Anyone read how the McLaren mechanics are freezing Lewis out, because Lewis deserted his team? Very interesting...

http://www.planetf1.com/story/....html

Surely, one has to take the boy's own team's assessment of him over who they would like him to be. Arrogant prat.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

Quote, originally posted by JoeLvo »

Shame for Felipe. He again, showed that his critics are basically haters. The guy ran up the field in the wet, only to have his car let him down while running as high as 3rd. So much for Hammy being the rain man, Hammy spun and Felipe didn't. They both had picked up around 6 places when Felipe's Ferrari quit him. Vettel is the real rain-man in the field. He is a future champion. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif Anyone read how the McLaren mechanics are freezing Lewis out, because Lewis deserted his team? Very interesting... http://www.planetf1.com/story/....html Surely, one has to take the boy's own team's assessment of him over who they would like him to be. Arrogant prat.

You are a way bigger Hamilton hater than anyone else is a Ferrari hater.

His critics are basically haters?

Who is criticizing Massa? Ferrari, yes, but not Massa.

 

[RearWheelPaul]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

Quote, originally posted by JRL »

Spirit, shremit. You're too young but 40 years ago it was ADMIRABLE to come up with something innovative (as long as it adhered to the rules), and those teams WON races (WOW, what a concept), until someone else came along with something that worked better and then THEIR cars were faster.

Really?

1950s: The FIA clamped down on the 300 SLR's aero-brake. The sporting regs at the time didn't say anything about movable aero devices. Heck, automotive aerodynamics was a pretty new concept in the 50s. Yet the FIA banned it, despite its ADMIRABLE effort to introduce this advanced concept.

1960s: Remember the Tyrell P36. Diverged from the "spirit" of F1 rules, which didn't actually say that a car needed to have 4 wheels. Ken Tyrell went out and built a 6-wheeled car, which was subsequently banned by the FIA. An ADMIRABLE effort, and one that was intended to preserve front grip while reducing the car's frontal area. Banned.

1970s: Brabham BT46B. The sporting regulations didn't say anything about engine-driven fans. Only movable aerodynamic devices, which everyone interpreted to be wings. But the BT46 was banned soon after introduction, as ADMIRABLE a concept as it was.

The reason why the sport is called Formula One, is that cars must adhere to specific rules. The sport is full of major and minor transgressions that go beyond the "spirit" of the rules.

As far back as 60, 50, and 40 years ago, the FIA banned things that went beyond the spirit of the sporting regulations. I don't like it. You don't like it. But not much has changed.

There are no "good old days" in Grand Prix racing. Only old days that many are quick to forget...

 

[JoeLvo]

Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »

You are a way bigger Hamilton hater than anyone else is a Ferrari hater. His critics are basically haters? Who is criticizing Massa? Ferrari, yes, but not Massa.

I was not referring to SS critics. Sorry you took it that way. But why so defensive of Hamilton?

I am in no way, a Hamilton hater. I am a realist. I don't attribute god-like status to him because he was able to win the championship in the most reliable, quickest car. I don't attribute god-like status to him because he won the championship in his 2nd year, and got so close in his rookie year. He had the best car in the field (arguably) both seasons. I think he's a *great* driver. Definitely one of the best in the field. But to Hammy fanbois, that's not enough. Everybody must agree that he's the best thing since sliced bread

Do you frequent any F1 related websites? Have you seen the kind of bias spun in Hammy's favor, and the inbred hatred shown for Ferrari (and by extension, Massa)? Unless you're reading in another language, you have, you may not have noticed it though. When I say critics, I basically mean those people who insist Massa can't drive in the wet, that he's not championship material, doesn't deserve his race seat, etc... And yes, those are but the tip of the iceberg of pro-Hamilton, anti-Massa sentiments.

Do you watch Speed's coverage of the GPs? Because if you do, you will have likely seen Peter Windsor, for example, walking the grid and as he gets to Massa's car, he goes "and look who we have here, way in the back, Felipe Massa" with such a turd-minching grin, you'd have to be blind to not notice it. Even though he just walked past Kovi's McLaren, where he spoke very analytically about how Kovi needs to get things together, but when it's Massa at the back of the grid, it's a laughing matter. Of course, he's a Brit, so he's biased.

We've established that I'm not a Hamilton fanboi. *You've* taken that to indicate I'm a Hamilton hater. You're wrong. A person who thinks he's great, but not the greatest *can* exist, you know