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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

Quote, originally posted by JRL »

Ever hear of TiVo or a DVR that you should be able to get with now almost every service?
Who the heck gets up that early anymore..

I do, Jim. I like to watch practice, qualifying and the races live. I don't give a crap about Tivo. You're not the first to bring up Tivo, and you won't be the last. I have family in Italy I talk to on Sundays and it's nice to be able to talk about the race instead of waiting for 930PM their time for me to finish watching the replay. Actually, if I don't catch the race live, for whatever reason, I rarely go back to watch the replay, as by then, I have all the info I need.

And I can't get Tivo with "free" cable, FTR.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Quote, originally posted by thesternowl »
The verdict is in: the FIA have deemed the diffuser designs of Brawn, Toyota and Williams as legal.

http://www.formula1.com/news/h....html

Hence my </season> post. Brawn will likely win every race they partake in, barring any unforeseeable turn 1 wipeouts. I'm so gald they ruined the sport in the name of cost-cutting, and are now degrading it further by having a 2 car field, throwing out the diffuser rule (in effect) and prompting the rest of the teams to spend exhorbitant amounts of money to catch up with BrawnGP's race 1 pace. It's stupid. Now, I'm no McLaren or Hammy fan, but my money is on the FIA taking Hammy's lies more seriously than the contravening of the spirit of the regs, the latter of which has likely washed this season up completely. Tards.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

Quote, originally posted by JRL »
Spirit, shremit.
You're too young but 40 years ago it was ADMIRABLE to come up with something innovative (as long as it adhered to the rules), and those teams WON races (WOW, what a concept), until someone else came along with something that worked better and then THEIR cars were faster.
There was no "spirit" of the rules, it was non existent, innovation was encouraged
This is so much BS now, it's absurd. You're smart, you win, plain and simple and it didn't always take cubic money to acheive this.

-1

So now doing something that breaks the spirit of the regs is 'innovative"? LOL. They knew the diffuser design was at least questionable back in the winter. Instead of using th ediffuser as a diffuser, they're using the bodywork as the diffuser. That's not innovation, that's finding loopholes, and warrants MUCH less praise, methinks. Now, the mass-dampener system Renault innovated several years back, THAT was innovation.

The reason "spirit" of rules are now discussed, is that regs have gotten exponentially more complicated, all the while being less and less effective at acheiving the desired results because these cars are so much more complicated, and the possibilities of what can be done are vastly increased over the old-dog days of F1.

It is still admirable to come up with something innovative, these diffusers are not, though. Every team immediately knew what the three diffuser teams did, they didn't do the same because they read the rulebook and understood the spirit of the regs (FIA takes blame for this, in my book, as all teams should be involved in the reg writing process, so EVERYBODY understands the end-game desired, and the spirit of the regs).

If the rules outlaw "holes" in the diffusers, and 3 teams utilize "gaps" in their diffusers, you call that innovation? Really?
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

Brawn was most-definitely not smart that they chose to run these diffusers. They were lucky. Other teams apprached the FIA with the same concept during the winter and were told in no uncertain terms, that these open diffusers were illegal. Brawn and the other 2 teams showed up with them anyway, and now for the sake of "show", the illegal diffusers are no longer illegal. Innovation <> breaking rules. Innovation = new and genious solutions WITHIN the rules.

Of course, rules schmules, and spirit schmirit


Glad everybody wants to see a runaway series determined by giving two different answers to one question, depending on which team is asking. It's pathetic really. The FIA should put the ensuing races on hold while they give the rule-following teams time to update their challengers to the "against-the-rules" design. This will be the most ridiculous season in memory now.

""EDIT""

Again, EVERY team on the grid knows the open diffusers would have a significant advantage. People singing the praises of innovation need a reality-check. There was ZERO innovation in using a larger volume diffuser. Gawd, come on already. Sure, it's nice to see non front-running teams get a nut and all, but if this is the only way the FIA can create the illusion of 22 cars with different solutions, resulting in any team having a chance at winning, they're just going have to pull the same BS next season.

Open diffusers are not innovative folks. Nobody on any of th eF1 design teams looked at the diffusers and said "hey, that's an interesting solution". EVERYBODY knew how to do this, some were told it was illegal, and some were not. This is your idea of the FIA doing the right thing. Shocking.

http://www.planetf1.com/story/....html

"What angers us is the fact that we had approached Charlie Whiting for a clarification on a diffuser solution like the one in question and we were told it was illegal, therefore we did not pursue it any further though our design team had similar ideas,"

-Helmut Marko, Red Bull team motorsport advisor

Just because you may like the fact that the underdogs are getting the nod, doesn't mean you're right.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Quote, originally posted by thesternowl »


Out of curiousity: how are you so certain about this?

Because several teams have gone on record as knowing this solution was already deemed illegal by the FIA, and therefore didn't use it.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »


You have this incorrect.

There was a meeting held a while back, which was voluntary. 3 of the manufacturers did not attend. At this meeting, the question was raised and they were told that the diffusers were NOT illegal, but they violated the "spirit of the rule". They were NOT told they were illegal.

Guess which manufacturers are running the diffusers?

FIA did NOT subsequently issue a clarification changing them to "illegal" status. Generally this is how FIA closes loopholes.

Individual teams may have asked Charlie Whiting for a ruling, but if that's the case, then why didn't they issue a technical bulletin?

Since FIA did not do this, they were, are and remain LEGAL.

The only luck comes from the fact that FIA could have changed the rules later to make them illegal. In doing this, they could have retroactively penalized those teams which ran them. Or they could have just made them illegal going forward and not penalized the teams. Or they could have kept them legal.

Back in the day when Tyrrel ran 6 wheels and they were subsequently banned, they were not retroactively penalized. Nor were Gordon Murray's sliding skirt designs (was that also Tyrrel Jim?).

They never were, and are still not, illegal. No rules were broken.

How can you say that when there are teams that were told, BY THE FIA, that the open diffuser solution was illegal? Whether or not we want to look at today, as the determining factor that the diffusers are illegal or not - the fact remains that teams were told by the FIA during the pre-season to NOT use this solution, as it was illegal.

Pick your time, and your team, and you'll get different answers as to the FIA's take on the open diffuser. That's why it is all down to luck for Brawn, Toyota and Williams.

::edit::

Basically, Bernie and co. are just tailor making this season to be exactly what they wanted to be. They've granted a technical upper-hand to the few teams they told the diffusers were ok, and hamstrung the teams they told the diffusers were illegal. It's really simple, actually. They wanted F1 to be about every team, not just the big ones, and knowing that can never happen, they decided to fabricate it. Like I said, sleeping in from now on. And who knows, this is so disgusting it may turn me away, and I'm a long-time follower of F1. When McCheaters were allowed to keep their drivers points when they cheated and gained an advantage, I was very annoyed. But this, this is simply social engineering on an F1 level, and no, the FIA is not smarter than me and cannot pull this fast one on me.

Modified by JoeLvo at 3:59 PM 4-15-2009
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Quote, originally posted by thesternowl »


Joe,

That is not true.

A true statement should read:

"Several teams have gone on record as knowing that this solution would provide greater downforce at the rear of the car but instead chose to take a more conservative approach in their respective diffuser design."


Um, the teams have said themselves what they were told by the FIA. So not to be argumentative, but why are you so sure that the reason the other teams didn't employ the open diffuser was that they were not smart enough to do so?

Think about it, Adrian Newey's team didn't go with the open diffuser. Why not? Because they were told, outright, by the FIA that that solution was illegal. The teams involved in the wording of the regs for this season also had this clarified for them while the regs were being debated and drawn up.

Again, I don't blame BrawnGP in any way, but I certainly won't pretend they're the only team that thought of the open diffuser, or that it's down to their innovation that they have it while all the other teams save 2 don't have the open diffuser.

The FIA, after telling certain teams that an open diffuser was illegal, should have clarified the rules then. there was no way they were going to say anything other than "yes, they are legal" at this point, even though they've done so in the past (moveable floorboords anyone?), and even changed TESTING methods to ensure that the SPIRIT of the regs are not contravened. What I'm saying they should have done, would have been consistent with nearly every other "clarification" the FIA has meeted out.

I don't want to sound like I'm hating on BrawnGP, becasue I'm not. I'm hating on the duplicitous nature of the FIA, and the fact that it will cost us a season of competition (there is none this season, ok, maybe for 2nd place).

::edit::

And in actuality, Brawn did his due diligence by bringing the open diffuser issue to the attention of the FIA back in the winter and they told him to "go away". This is the same winter when they told Red Bull that an open diffuser was illegal. So again, kudos to BrawnGP for winning the 2009 championship, but all credit for the fact that 7 out of 10 teams were totally uncompetitive rests in the hands of the FIA (yes, past-tense used for hyperbolic effect
)
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

Quote, originally posted by 850arrrsaylikepirate »
Ferrari is in a tailspin at the moment, diffuser or not.

Their KERS is out, they have no grip and their team tactics or pookey (such as not getting Massa out in qualifying correctly).

They will recover but this season may not be the best for them.

Agreed. I've seen them get off to poor starts before, as have we all. But there seems to be more dire talk this season than others. Desperation, even. I don't mind the mistake with Kimi's full-wets, that was a gamble for sure, but I'm ok with them gambling and losing. I'm not ok with the Massa "we're fast enough to sit the rest of Q1 out" mistake. For that error, I would have rolled some heads. Or something similarly severe.

McLaren are sucking big fat baboon ba!!s too, this season, so I believe there is definitely something to the comments that the leaders last season are paying the price for lack of 2009 develo0pment last season. In a nutshell, this season is likely going to end early (as far as the championship goes) because nobody will be able to design their car around the double-decker diffuser, they will only be able to add it the best way they can. BrawnGP looks to heve it sewn-up.

Hopefully the big teams wills start working on their 2010 challengers early, so they'll have a chance next season. What I can't believe though, is that race fans actually enjoy the fabricated passing and the clear winner being known before the race starts. If I hear another "Great Race!" comment after a completely boring, pole to checkered race, I'm gonna scream.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Shame for Felipe. He again, showed that his critics are basically haters. The guy ran up the field in the wet, only to have his car let him down while running as high as 3rd. So much for Hammy being the rain man, Hammy spun and Felipe didn't. They both had picked up around 6 places when Felipe's Ferrari quit him.

Vettel is the real rain-man in the field. He is a future champion. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Anyone read how the McLaren mechanics are freezing Lewis out, because Lewis deserted his team? Very interesting...

http://www.planetf1.com/story/....html

Surely, one has to take the boy's own team's assessment of him over who they would like him to be. Arrogant prat.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »


You are a way bigger Hamilton hater than anyone else is a Ferrari hater.

His critics are basically haters?

Who is criticizing Massa? Ferrari, yes, but not Massa.

I was not referring to SS critics. Sorry you took it that way. But why so defensive of Hamilton?


I am in no way, a Hamilton hater. I am a realist. I don't attribute god-like status to him because he was able to win the championship in the most reliable, quickest car. I don't attribute god-like status to him because he won the championship in his 2nd year, and got so close in his rookie year. He had the best car in the field (arguably) both seasons. I think he's a *great* driver. Definitely one of the best in the field. But to Hammy fanbois, that's not enough. Everybody must agree that he's the best thing since sliced bread


Do you frequent any F1 related websites? Have you seen the kind of bias spun in Hammy's favor, and the inbred hatred shown for Ferrari (and by extension, Massa)? Unless you're reading in another language, you have, you may not have noticed it though. When I say critics, I basically mean those people who insist Massa can't drive in the wet, that he's not championship material, doesn't deserve his race seat, etc... And yes, those are but the tip of the iceberg of pro-Hamilton, anti-Massa sentiments.

Do you watch Speed's coverage of the GPs? Because if you do, you will have likely seen Peter Windsor, for example, walking the grid and as he gets to Massa's car, he goes "and look who we have here, way in the back, Felipe Massa" with such a turd-minching grin, you'd have to be blind to not notice it. Even though he just walked past Kovi's McLaren, where he spoke very analytically about how Kovi needs to get things together, but when it's Massa at the back of the grid, it's a laughing matter. Of course, he's a Brit, so he's biased.

We've established that I'm not a Hamilton fanboi. *You've* taken that to indicate I'm a Hamilton hater. You're wrong. A person who thinks he's great, but not the greatest *can* exist, you know
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (RearWheelPaul)

The diffuser issue is a dead one, but it will impact this entire season. Nothing will be done to ensure these things do not occur in the future (i.e., consistent FIA rulings, clearly and completely written rule-books (how can they be?), so this same type of thing will come up again. If you read the rule-book, there really is no way to see the BrawnGP challenger *except* to see it contravening the "holes in the floorboard" rule. The reason they ruled as they did on Tuesday, is the same reason they make other sport-damaging decisions, like 5pm start times in frikkin Asia. For the show of it. Not the sport of it.

The biggest take-away though, is that with the right solutions, a car without KERS and without the DDD *can* win a GP. Can they do it in the dry? No. Not as a result of their own speed anyway, there's no need to even consider it. And no other team has Adrian Newey (who is finally getting some results out of his impressive designs). But that's the talent aspect, and that is where the leaps should take place.

This season's rule-changes were meant to improve overtaking, and create drama on the grid, which they have done. And it is annoying.

The FIA is incentivizing "giving up" in the hopes that more time could be spent on the next year's challenger. That is why Honda, Williams and Toyota have such an advantage. They all began work on this year's car very early on in the 2008 championship. How is that good for the sport? Alas, it is done, so there's no point bemoaning it now. I'm just thankful for a bit of rain, and great talents to take advantage of it (and no, I'm not talking about Hamilton
).
 
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