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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Round 3 of the 2009 FIA Formula 1 World Championship<p><A HREF="http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9164.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.formula1.com/news/h....html</A><p>With the diffuser appeal well underway in Paris, the Formula 1 circus continues in China this weekend. Ferrari is off to their worst start in 17 years while Brawn GP and Jenson Button have dominated the first two rounds in what has become one of the most extraordinary stories in F1 history. <p>What will become of the "diffuser three" or more likely, the teams that took a more conservative approach to their diffuser design? The FIA will be making their judgement shortly...
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

Renault has a new diffuser (they say prototype) that they may use in China. <p>I am guessing all the teams will follow suit and change their diffusers.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

</season><p>At least I dont have to get up @ 630 on Saturdays & Sundays :/
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"></season><p>At least I dont have to get up @ 630 on Saturdays & Sundays :/</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Ever hear of <B>TiVo or a DVR </B>that you should be able to get with now almost every service?<br>Who the heck gets up that early anymore..
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

The verdict is in: the FIA have deemed the diffuser designs of Brawn, Toyota and Williams as <I>legal</I>.<p><A HREF="http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9175.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.formula1.com/news/h....html</A><br>
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Ever hear of <B>TiVo or a DVR </B>that you should be able to get with now almost every service?<br>Who the heck gets up that early anymore..</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I do, Jim. I like to watch practice, qualifying and the races <i>live</i>. I don't give a crap about Tivo. You're not the first to bring up Tivo, and you won't be the last. I have family in Italy I talk to on Sundays and it's nice to be able to talk about the race instead of waiting for 930PM their time for me to finish watching the replay. Actually, if I don't catch the race live, for whatever reason, I rarely go back to watch the replay, as by then, I have all the info I need.<p>And I can't get Tivo with "free" cable, FTR. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>thesternowl</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The verdict is in: the FIA have deemed the diffuser designs of Brawn, Toyota and Williams as <I>legal</I>.<p><A HREF="http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9175.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.formula1.com/news/h....html</A><br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Hence my </season> post. Brawn will likely win every race they partake in, barring any unforeseeable turn 1 wipeouts. I'm so gald they ruined the sport in the name of cost-cutting, and are now degrading it further by having a 2 car field, throwing out the diffuser rule (in effect) and prompting the rest of the teams to spend exhorbitant amounts of money to catch up with BrawnGP's race 1 pace. It's stupid. Now, I'm no McLaren or Hammy fan, but my money is on the FIA taking Hammy's lies more seriously than the contravening of the spirit of the regs, the latter of which has likely washed this season up completely. Tards.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

Spirit, shremit.<br>You're too young but 40 years ago it was ADMIRABLE to come up with something innovative <U>(as long as it adhered to the rules</U>), and those teams WON races (WOW, what a concept), until someone else came along with something that worked better and then THEIR cars were faster.<br>There was no "spirit" of the rules, it was non existent, <B>innovation was encouraged</B><br>This is so much BS now, it's absurd. You're smart, you win, plain and simple and it didn't always take cubic money to acheive this.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Spirit, shremit.<br>You're too young but 40 years ago it was ADMIRABLE to come up with something innovative <U>(as long as it adhered to the rules</U>), and those teams WON races (WOW, what a concept), until someone else came along with something that worked better and then THEIR cars were faster.<br>There was no "spirit" of the rules, it was non existent, <B>innovation was encouraged</B><br>This is so much BS now, it's absurd. You're smart, you win, plain and simple and it didn't always take cubic money to acheive this.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>+1
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Spirit, shremit.<br>You're too young but 40 years ago it was ADMIRABLE to come up with something innovative <U>(as long as it adhered to the rules</U>), and those teams WON races (WOW, what a concept), until someone else came along with something that worked better and then THEIR cars were faster.<br>There was no "spirit" of the rules, it was non existent, <B>innovation was encouraged</B><br>This is so much BS now, it's absurd. You're smart, you win, plain and simple and it didn't always take cubic money to acheive this.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>-1<p>So now doing something that breaks the spirit of the regs is 'innovative"? LOL. They <i>knew</i> the diffuser design was at least questionable back in the winter. Instead of using th ediffuser as a diffuser, they're using the bodywork as the diffuser. That's not innovation, that's finding loopholes, and warrants MUCH less praise, methinks. Now, the mass-dampener system Renault innovated several years back, THAT was innovation. <p>The reason "spirit" of rules are now discussed, is that regs have gotten exponentially more complicated, all the while being less and less effective at acheiving the desired results because these cars are so much more complicated, and the possibilities of what can be done are vastly increased over the old-dog days of F1. <p>It is <I>still</I> admirable to come up with something innovative, these diffusers are not, though. Every team immediately knew what the three diffuser teams did, they didn't do the same because they read the rulebook and understood the spirit of the regs (FIA takes blame for this, in my book, as all teams should be involved in the reg writing process, so EVERYBODY understands the end-game desired, and the spirit of the regs).<p>If the rules outlaw "holes" in the diffusers, and 3 teams utilize "gaps" in their diffusers, you call that innovation? Really?
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Hence my </season> post. Brawn will likely win every race they partake in, barring any unforeseeable turn 1 wipeouts. I'm so gald they ruined the sport in the name of cost-cutting, and are now degrading it further by having a 2 car field, throwing out the diffuser rule (in effect) and prompting the rest of the teams to spend exhorbitant amounts of money to catch up with BrawnGP's race 1 pace. It's stupid. Now, I'm no McLaren or Hammy fan, but my money is on the FIA taking Hammy's lies more seriously than the contravening of the spirit of the regs, the latter of which has likely washed this season up completely. Tards.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I, for one, agree with Jim and am in favor of these guys being allowed to run this diffuser. <p>I do not see it being a Brawn runaway, other teams will catch up now that they have the green light. And for one, I really am happy that someone besides the big players are sharing the limelight! I am sorry that Honda didn't get to share a slice of this pie, actually. <p>And sorry, but from an engineering standpoint, to me, there is no "spirit" of the rules. It's either black or white. If the FIA has a guideline or a rule, you follow it. If there is room to work within those rules, you exploit it. <p>If you try to over-govern what the teams can do, you end up with a bunch of spec cars, which is boring, IMO. <p>It doesn't take a lot of money, either. Notice that Brawn is one of the chief beneficiaries, yet I doubt that they have a ton of money to spend. Note that they (Honda) started working on this a while back and have had the time to think of something innovative that doesn't necessarily cost a whole bunch of money to implement. <p>
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>-1<p>So now doing something that breaks the spirit of the regs is 'innovative"? LOL. They <i>knew</i> the diffuser design was at least questionable back in the winter. Instead of using th ediffuser as a diffuser, they're using the bodywork as the diffuser. That's not innovation, that's finding loopholes, and warrants MUCH less praise, methinks. Now, the mass-dampener system Renault innovated several years back, THAT was innovation. <p><B>NO, YOU'RE WRONG. THIS IS WHAT RACING <U>IS</U> ALL ABOUT, INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES AND AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT BROKEN, IT'S OK, ALWAYS WAS, ALWAYS HAS BEEN, (UNTIL RECENTLY).</B><p>The reason "spirit" of rules are now discussed, is that regs have gotten exponentially more complicated, all the while being less and less effective at acheiving the desired results because these cars are so much more complicated, and the possibilities of what can be done are vastly increased over the old-dog days of F1. <br><B><br>WRONG AGAIN</B><p>It is <I>still</I> admirable to come up with something innovative, these diffusers are not, though. <p><B> THEY MOST CERTAINLY ARE</B><p>If the rules outlaw "holes" in the diffusers, and 3 teams utilize "gaps" in their diffusers, you call that innovation? Really? <p><B>YEP</B><br></TD></TR></TABLE>
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JRL)

JRL & Needsdecaf = <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Good for Brawn and the others for figuring out a way to make the diffuser work. They were smart and are now winning races, that's how it should be. Thank god the FIA didn't poo on them!!
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (850arrrsaylikepirate)

Brawn was most-definitely <i>not</i> smart that they chose to run these diffusers. They were <i>lucky</i>. Other teams apprached the FIA with the same concept during the winter and were told in no uncertain terms, that these open diffusers were <b>illegal</b>. Brawn and the other 2 teams showed up with them anyway, and now for the sake of "show", the illegal diffusers are no longer illegal. Innovation <> breaking rules. Innovation = new and genious solutions WITHIN the rules. <p>Of course, rules schmules, and spirit schmirit <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Glad everybody wants to see a runaway series determined by giving two different answers to one question, depending on which team is asking. It's pathetic really. The FIA should put the ensuing races on hold while they give the rule-following teams time to update their challengers to the "against-the-rules" design. <i>This</i> will be the most ridiculous season in memory now. <p>""EDIT""<p>Again, EVERY team on the grid knows the open diffusers would have a significant advantage. People singing the praises of innovation need a reality-check. There was ZERO innovation in using a larger volume diffuser. Gawd, come on already. Sure, it's nice to see non front-running teams get a nut and all, but if this is the only way the FIA can create the illusion of 22 cars with different solutions, resulting in any team having a chance at winning, they're just going have to pull the same BS next season.<p>Open diffusers are not innovative folks. Nobody on any of th eF1 design teams looked at the diffusers and said "hey, that's an interesting solution". EVERYBODY knew how to do this, some were told it was illegal, and some were not. This is your idea of the FIA doing the right thing. Shocking.<p><A HREF="http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5192672,00.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.planetf1.com/story/....html</A><p><i>"What angers us is the fact that we had approached Charlie Whiting for a clarification on a diffuser solution like the one in question and we were told it was illegal, therefore we did not pursue it any further though our design team had similar ideas," </i><p>-Helmut Marko, Red Bull team motorsport advisor<p>Just because you may like the fact that the underdogs are getting the nod, doesn't mean you're right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">EVERYBODY knew how to do this, some were told it was illegal, and some were not.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Out of curiousity: how are you so certain about this?
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brawn was most-definitely <i>not</i> smart that they chose to run these diffusers. They were <i>lucky</i>. Other teams apprached the FIA with the same concept during the winter and were told in no uncertain terms, that these open diffusers were <b>illegal</b>. Brawn and the other 2 teams showed up with them anyway, and now for the sake of "show", the illegal diffusers are no longer illegal. Innovation <> breaking rules. Innovation = new and genious solutions WITHIN the rules. <br>.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>You have this incorrect. <p>There was a meeting held a while back, which was voluntary. 3 of the manufacturers did not attend. At this meeting, the question was raised and they were told that the diffusers were NOT illegal, but they violated the "spirit of the rule". They were NOT told they were illegal. <p>Guess which manufacturers are running the diffusers? <p>FIA did NOT subsequently issue a clarification changing them to "illegal" status. Generally this is how FIA closes loopholes. <p>Individual teams may have asked Charlie Whiting for a ruling, but if that's the case, then why didn't they issue a technical bulletin? <p>Since FIA did not do this, they were, are and remain LEGAL. <p>The only luck comes from the fact that FIA could have changed the rules later to make them illegal. In doing this, they could have retroactively penalized those teams which ran them. Or they could have just made them illegal going forward and not penalized the teams. Or they could have kept them legal. <p>Back in the day when Tyrrel ran 6 wheels and they were subsequently banned, they were not retroactively penalized. Nor were Gordon Murray's sliding skirt designs (was that also Tyrrel Jim?). <p>They never were, and are still not, illegal. No rules were broken.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Br<p>Just because you may like the fact that the underdogs are getting the nod, doesn't mean you're right.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>No, it does not. What I wrote above does. <p>If the FIA wanted to call these devices illegal, why haven't they yet? <p>After all, they are getting pressure from the big teams, you would think. <br>
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (thesternowl)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>thesternowl</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Out of curiousity: how are you so certain about this?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Because several teams have gone on record as knowing this solution was already deemed illegal by the FIA, and therefore didn't use it.
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (Needsdecaf)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Needsdecaf</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>You have this incorrect. <p>There was a meeting held a while back, which was voluntary. 3 of the manufacturers did not attend. At this meeting, the question was raised and they were told that the diffusers were NOT illegal, but they violated the "spirit of the rule". They were NOT told they were illegal. <p>Guess which manufacturers are running the diffusers? <p>FIA did NOT subsequently issue a clarification changing them to "illegal" status. Generally this is how FIA closes loopholes. <p>Individual teams may have asked Charlie Whiting for a ruling, but if that's the case, then why didn't they issue a technical bulletin? <p>Since FIA did not do this, they were, are and remain LEGAL. <p>The only luck comes from the fact that FIA could have changed the rules later to make them illegal. In doing this, they could have retroactively penalized those teams which ran them. Or they could have just made them illegal going forward and not penalized the teams. Or they could have kept them legal. <p>Back in the day when Tyrrel ran 6 wheels and they were subsequently banned, they were not retroactively penalized. Nor were Gordon Murray's sliding skirt designs (was that also Tyrrel Jim?). <p>They never were, and are still not, illegal. No rules were broken. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>How can you say that when there are teams that were told, BY THE FIA, that the open diffuser solution was illegal? Whether or not we want to look at today, as the determining factor that the diffusers are illegal or not - the fact remains that teams were told by the FIA during the pre-season to NOT use this solution, as it was illegal.<p>Pick your time, and your team, and you'll get different answers as to the FIA's take on the open diffuser. That's why it is <i>all</i> down to luck for Brawn, Toyota and Williams.<p>::edit::<p>Basically, Bernie and co. are just tailor making this season to be exactly what they wanted to be. They've granted a technical upper-hand to the few teams they told the diffusers were ok, and hamstrung the teams they told the diffusers were illegal. It's really simple, actually. They wanted F1 to be about every team, not just the big ones, and knowing that can never happen, they decided to <i>fabricate</i> it. Like I said, sleeping in from now on. And who knows, this is so disgusting it may turn me away, and I'm a long-time follower of F1. When McCheaters were allowed to keep their drivers points when they cheated and gained an advantage, I was very annoyed. But this, this is simply social engineering on an F1 level, and no, the FIA is not smarter than me and cannot pull this fast one on me.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by JoeLvo at 3:59 PM 4-15-2009</i>
 

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Re: The Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai Circuit - starts 4-17-09 (JoeLvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoeLvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Because several teams have gone on record as knowing this solution was already deemed illegal by the FIA, and therefore didn't use it.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Joe,<p>That is not true.<p>A true statement should read: <p>"Several teams have gone on record as knowing that this solution would provide greater downforce at the rear of the car but instead chose to take a more conservative approach in their respective diffuser design."<p><br>
 
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