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Discussion Starter #1
CANfoolery

So in the past few months there has been alot of talk about 4C, good and bad. Some want to remove everything to do with it on their cars, some want to use different shocks, some can live with it etc. Then there is talk of fooling or tricking the system somehow. This leads me to my post. Are there swedespeeders out there who would be willing to "tag-team" sniffing the CANBUS to understand messages and possibly manipulate/trick/control/read/whatever 4C and other parts of the car? I figure we can use this thread as a master to post ideas, wish lists, deciphered CAN messages (that would be nice!) etc. then maybe we can get somewhere to modding the car's core systems.<br>I have already purchased a <A HREF="http://www.canusb.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.canusb.com</A> device and have been trying to detect activity on my 04 SR without any luck (although I haven't really dove into it....yet).<p>To start here is some basic info:<p>04' - CANL - speed = 125kbps, CANH - speed = 250kbps<br>05+ - CANL - speed = 250 kbps,CANH - speed = 500kbps<p>Main car units (i.e. ECU, CEM, ABS, SUM etc) operate upon CANH bus<br>CANL reserved for things like DIM, windows, audio etc<br>CANbus is detectable @ the OBD port (reportedly)<br>CANbus is POSITIVELY accessible via a green 10pin square connector in trunk (RTI connector)<p>Other posts of interest:<br><A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=30883&page=1" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...age=1</A><br><A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=61070&page=1" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...age=1</A><br><A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=38911" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=38911</A><p>Here is a small wishlist of things that I'd like this project to lead to and/or accomplish:<p>fob - yellow - turn on drls("follow me home" lights) or open windows/sunroof<br>advance button - turn off dtsc completely<br>write to messages DIM<br>make horn beep on lock/alarm engage<br>cancel bulb out message<br>cancel 4c suspension not working message<p>(mods this might belong in technical/electrical but traffic is a bit thin there)<p><br><i>Modified by juve021 at 5:05 PM 3-13-2010</i><p><br><i>Modified by juve021 at 7:28 PM 3-13-2010</i><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by juve021 at 1:07 PM 3-14-2010</i>
 

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Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

I believe I have that adapter at work. I would be happy to run any tests you come up with once I get my car back on the road. I should have it out of storage by the beginning of next month.
 

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Re: CANfoolery (TheKeyMaster)

I seem to recall a dude that popped up on this board and wanted to do something similar. Hopefully, he'll find his way here and assist you. <p>Wouldn't it be great if we could "only" turn off the darn 4C "warning light" on the dash. That way, we can disconnect the rear sensor in trunk and call it a day for 4C!<p>Once again, GREAT initiative, Tony!
 

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Re: CANfoolery (Short Circuit)

Tony, if there's anything that I can do to help (that I am capable of), you know where to reach me.
 

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Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

Good job, I've got some plans of my own for a similar project.<p>Right now I'm working on building a microcontroller to run my methanol injection system and communicate with my phone.<p>Once I get over that hump I'm also planning on tapping into the CAN bus with it so I'll be watching all CANsniffer projects with great interest.
 

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I have some resources at my place of work. <p>Part of my section (that I'm not all to familiar with, yet should be) owns the functional integration activities on our ground combat vehicles.<p>If you run into anything that requires a specific higher level understanding or piece of special test equipment (or design of equipment), feel free to IM me and I will be more than happy to ask the experts. <p>These guys have CANoe on Toughbooks, amoungst a multitude of other software packages and custom GUIs that they work with daily.<p>It's all foreign to me, but I'm willing to jump in an support however I can.
 

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Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its working muhahahah...<p> <IMG SRC="http://i43.tinypic.com/14bmjqc.jpg" BORDER="0"> <p>Low speed sniffing! Surprised there aren't more messages</TD></TR></TABLE><p>ok So i have 4c CAN and MOST books around here some were.<br>So ill send them to help, i dont think there going to help they may further prove you cant "trick" CAN/4C/MOST<br>and once the CAN is tricked what abut the MOST...?<p>Also SRS is in both hi speed and low speed network.... I hope you also took that into counter....... this is all ready looking like a can-o-worms.. O well wile you guys are ripping your hair out of every hairy place on your body (youll run out on your head) Ill be Moding my 1964 BIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! New carbs big fat exhaust, some pin stripping Ho Rod style. not this new BS "pin striping" from front to back ! HA what BS im talking hot rod pin strips!!!!!!! and putting some flat black in some places (shhh bumpers) were my chrome is unsaveable<br>plus i HATE CHROME!!!!!! gag!!!!!!!! and loving life not worrying about my Rs electrics cause in the car ill be driving there is like no electrics <br>radio- don't work<br>lights<br>Windwos<br>ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yea ever thing else is vac opp LOL!!!!!! wipers doorlocks vents Heater/ac ( HA LOL RIGHT AC LOL) wipers....... Ummmm yea LOL<p>GOOOOOOOOD LUCK! your going to need all the luck in the world. :thumbup
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its working muhahahah...<p> <IMG SRC="http://i43.tinypic.com/14bmjqc.jpg" BORDER="0"> <p>Low speed sniffing! Surprised there aren't more messages</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Just a small update to this...<p>I was attempting to access the CANbus via the OBD port and have been unsuccessful. I came across some wiring diagrams that suggested there is an RTI connector in the trunk that also provides access. Modded up a twisted pair cable, stuck it into the green RTI connector and activity was instant! So the first post has been updated to suggest the RTI connector as a sniffing point.
 

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Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So in the past few months there has been alot of talk about 4C, good and bad. ... Then there is talk of fooling or tricking the system somehow. This leads me to my post. Are there swedespeeders out there who would be willing to "tag-team" sniffing the CANBUS to understand messages and possibly manipulate/trick/control/read/whatever 4C and other parts of the car? I figure we can use this thread as a master to post ideas, wish lists, deciphered CAN messages (that would be nice!) etc. then maybe we can get somewhere to modding the car's core systems.<br>I have already purchased a <A HREF="http://www.canusb.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.canusb.com</A> device and have been trying to detect activity on my 04 SR without any luck (although I haven't really dove into it....yet).<p>...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I applaud your ambitious initiative, and will help if I can. I remain hopeful (and have indications that cause me to believe) that 4C can be made to work correctly, at or near its potential, without the need for such semi-drastic measures, however.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Other posts of interest:<br><A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=30883&page=1" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...age=1</A><br><A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=61070&page=1" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...age=1</A><br><A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=38911" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=38911</A></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Interesting finds. Gotta read those now... IMHO, no one here makes/made consistently better posts than JimLill and tmtalpey.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is a small wishlist of things that I'd like this project to lead to and/or accomplish:<p>fob - yellow - turn on drls("follow me home" lights) or open windows/sunroof<br>advance button - turn off dtsc completely<br>write to messages DIM<br>make horn beep on lock/alarm engage<br>cancel bulb out message<br>cancel 4c suspension not working message</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The best post I've seen here in a while was <A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=134216&postid=1435519#1435519" TARGET="_blank">that one about solving the horn beep</A> on lock/alarm engage!<p>I think it would be interesting to piggyback some I/O device on the bus, to permit a choice of messages/readings (boost?!) for DIM to show. Or maybe make the DRLs come on with the high-beams via software...?
 

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Re: CANfoolery (Turbo Country)

So much potential if this works correctly!
 

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Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

You should browse this, mostly Swedish but the code is English.<p><A HREF="http://www.jagrullar.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=48773" TARGET="_blank">http://www.jagrullar.se/forum/...48773</A><p>The most valuable info, to my understanding:<p>Ta activate and keep CAN buss alive<br>Send these 7 bytes in HEX<br>84 40 13 b2 f0 03 7c<br>every 5 seconds, otherwise it closes.<p>He used a USB -> RS232 converter<br>RS232 (+/- 10V) to K-line (0V & +12V)<br>Used terminal program that supported HEX instead of ASCII<br>Used 10800 baud with 8N1<p>"andreas 80" works in the Car industry in Gothenburg. Assumed he used his V70N MY 2000 for this.<p>Basically all Swedes speak great English, so go ahead and contact him directly or post at the forum in English, would be surprised if anyone complained.<br>If you choose to register on this forum, the last registration box, to see you are human, the code is "norge". The rest is name and passwd and email and such.<br> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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how is it that the MTE folks who wrote the loader/logger software for IPD seem to have access to all the CAN codes? They can log boost and such through the OBD port. Seems to me someone needs to get a hold of that softare and their reader and stick a RS232 pass through sniffer between them to see what they are doing.
 

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Re: (juve021)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>inteller</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how is it that the MTE folks who wrote the loader/logger software for IPD seem to have access to all the CAN codes? They can log boost and such through the OBD port. Seems to me someone needs to get a hold of that softare and their reader and stick a RS232 pass through sniffer between them to see what they are doing.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I believe Marco Alsterfalk (from MTE), worked for Volvo doing engine management programming, etc. I believe he knows the Bosch ME7 ECU inside and out and all the other CAN stuff used by the various Volvo modules is like a cake-walk to him. Probably the same for the RICA guys, and the BSR guys, etc.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nice find I'm gonna join the forums and try to contact this andreas dude</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Juve021:<p>I'm pretty sure CAN Lo and CAN Hi are both available of the OBD2 port. But more importantly...<br>You'll want Tmtalpey and WRObsessed in on this. Check this thread:<br> <A HREF=http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?61070-OBD-II-CAN-ISO9141-technical-issues" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/z...61070</A><p>I just noticed a mysterious posting to the above thread from 2010. Interesting how the guys 'in the know' seem to pop up, throw a few bones, and then just disappear.<p>And if you thought what you were doing was new, take a look back into 2005 <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0"> <br> <A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=38911" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=38911</A> <p>Glad to see a revival with this <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> If you can just get WRObessed to pipe up I think you'll be more than half way there.<p><br>LTA<br>
 

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if you had a DiCE device would it make things easier to figure out? I might be able to get one for pretty cheap.
 

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I won't be able to start experimenting till next week after I recover from my b-day weekend, but if I remember correctly I think the reason people are not able to pick up the CAN signals on the OBDII connector is because the voltage levels used by the CAN bus are not the same levels used by RS232.<p>Once I get a splitter box made up for my MTE softloader cable and hook up the digital oscilloscope I'll know if that is correct.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Re: (StealthyS60R)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>StealthyS60R</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I won't be able to start experimenting till next week after I recover from my b-day weekend, but if I remember correctly I think the reason people are not able to pick up the CAN signals on the OBDII connector is because the voltage levels used by the CAN bus are not the same levels used by RS232.<p>Once I get a splitter box made up for my MTE softloader cable and hook up the digital oscilloscope I'll know if that is correct.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>If you're talkin about why I couldn't get the adapter to work via the obd port, its cause there IS an initialization that must be made to the CEM (where the obd port is connected to) and then the connection must be kept alive every 5 seconds. The initialization occurs on the K-line of the obd port. For my intentions, its just way easier to hook directly up to the bus at the RTI connector.
 

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Re: CANfoolery (juve021)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>juve021</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>advance button - turn off dtsc completely</TD></TR></TABLE><p>You can already do this by pressing the button 5 times, or are you saying you want it to always be off whenever you are in Advanced mode? The only thing active when you totally disable DSTC is the spin control, which you really do need since that is the only way the AWD can transfer power side to side.
 
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