Okay, I know AWD system vary by manufacturer, and I understand the concept behind the Volvo Halidex (sp?) system, but is it really that effective when compared to a traditional mechanical AWD system? I had always been a bit skeptical of the idea of waiting for wheel slip before giving the rear wheels power. They say seeing is believing. I came across these videos, and they have pretty much shattered any confidence in the Volvo AWD system for me, both from a stability sense, and ultimate traction. What are your thoughts after viewing the videos? To me, the Volvo Performance looks pretty pathetic, especially the wet road maneuverability stuff...
BEST4X4XFAR
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
I had seen the first video - the head to head b/t the outback and the XC - and wondered the same thing. I had not thought as much of it b/c I do not off-road, and rely on my R's awd mostly for winter/wet road traction. The second video really raises some questions.
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Any xc/R owners to contribute?
I had seen the first video - the head to head b/t the outback and the XC - and wondered the same thing. I had not thought as much of it b/c I do not off-road, and rely on my R's awd mostly for winter/wet road traction. The second video really raises some questions.
Any xc/R owners to contribute?
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (pktojd)
As attached thread above indicates, the video is staged to make the Volvo appear inferior.
I have taken both my xc 90 and xc 70 (2004s) way off road as in no road, 1. across plowed and unplowed fields rough enough to bend and break mudflaps off,
2. up hills steep enough to make the trailer hitch touch ground on the incline and to make my wife think that the 90 was going to flip over backwards.
3. across shallow creeks muddy enough to fill the skid plate, and
4. though woods thick enough to bend up the heat shields and fill the metal skid plates with mud, sticks, rocks, apples etc
In other words not just on the unpaved roads trails that some people consider to be off-road.
I am not saying that you can not do these things with a Subaru, but if you have the metal skid plate and know what you are doing - meaning pick your route, hold the right speed and drive carefully the XCs are surprisingly capable.
As I indicted in a much earlier post, a relative with a Z71 pickup equiped with off-road tires was shocked that I was able to go everywhere he went albeit much slower with the 90.
I recently pulled a 3000lb trailer through the woods and over large tree roots with my xc 70.
By the way both Vovlos still look like new.
As attached thread above indicates, the video is staged to make the Volvo appear inferior.
I have taken both my xc 90 and xc 70 (2004s) way off road as in no road, 1. across plowed and unplowed fields rough enough to bend and break mudflaps off,
2. up hills steep enough to make the trailer hitch touch ground on the incline and to make my wife think that the 90 was going to flip over backwards.
3. across shallow creeks muddy enough to fill the skid plate, and
4. though woods thick enough to bend up the heat shields and fill the metal skid plates with mud, sticks, rocks, apples etc
In other words not just on the unpaved roads trails that some people consider to be off-road.
I am not saying that you can not do these things with a Subaru, but if you have the metal skid plate and know what you are doing - meaning pick your route, hold the right speed and drive carefully the XCs are surprisingly capable.
As I indicted in a much earlier post, a relative with a Z71 pickup equiped with off-road tires was shocked that I was able to go everywhere he went albeit much slower with the 90.
I recently pulled a 3000lb trailer through the woods and over large tree roots with my xc 70.
By the way both Vovlos still look like new.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
The Haldex system is used in a lot of cars- like VW/Audi and Volvo. So it's really it's Haldex vs. Subaru AWD. And Subaru is known for AWD systems so I would hope they have the better AWD.
When I was researching Subaru, they wanted to go more upmarket. Obviously they can't compete with the Holy Teutonic Trinity, they would get blown out of the water. Judging from their ads and this video, I think they're trying to become a Japanese Volvo. And I think they could cause some headaches for the Swedish- they've got the price advantage, the recent crash test results, and they're probably more reliable. Hell, for me it was Volvo vs. Subaru as the two final car choices.
I didn't watch all of it, but I didn't see a Audi quattro anywhere...
The Haldex system is used in a lot of cars- like VW/Audi and Volvo. So it's really it's Haldex vs. Subaru AWD. And Subaru is known for AWD systems so I would hope they have the better AWD.
When I was researching Subaru, they wanted to go more upmarket. Obviously they can't compete with the Holy Teutonic Trinity, they would get blown out of the water. Judging from their ads and this video, I think they're trying to become a Japanese Volvo. And I think they could cause some headaches for the Swedish- they've got the price advantage, the recent crash test results, and they're probably more reliable. Hell, for me it was Volvo vs. Subaru as the two final car choices.
I didn't watch all of it, but I didn't see a Audi quattro anywhere...
Don't believe everything you hear/see on the Internet...
In the first video, it doesn't even seem that the Volvo has AWD - I can't recall seeing the rear wheels spin a single instance - perhaps they removed the AWD fuse?
In the second video, it appears that they have deactivated DSTC during the tests. The only time I've spun my S60R AWD 360degrees out of control is when I completely shut off DSTC (Anti-Skid Off) and gave it full throttle. DSTC will ALWAYS step in and stop you from spinning out of control (as long as it's activated and operating normally).
My recommendation to anyone who wants to compare the AWD systems on any car to actually go and test drive them first-hand and put them through their own tests.
I would also question what tire brand/models are fitted on all the test vehicles.
In the first video, it doesn't even seem that the Volvo has AWD - I can't recall seeing the rear wheels spin a single instance - perhaps they removed the AWD fuse?
In the second video, it appears that they have deactivated DSTC during the tests. The only time I've spun my S60R AWD 360degrees out of control is when I completely shut off DSTC (Anti-Skid Off) and gave it full throttle. DSTC will ALWAYS step in and stop you from spinning out of control (as long as it's activated and operating normally).
My recommendation to anyone who wants to compare the AWD systems on any car to actually go and test drive them first-hand and put them through their own tests.
I would also question what tire brand/models are fitted on all the test vehicles.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (eurotrash)
Maybe so on price and reliability, but for safety, I will take Volvo's reputation over anybody's standardized, able-to-be-designed-for crash test result. Thik of it this way, if Volvo was on reliability what they were on safety, they could probably put the Japanese carmakers out of business. Likewise for the Germans if they prioritized performance. The research and resources ($$, accident study teams dispatched to police calls, etc.) that they put into safety are unequaled.
| Quote, originally posted by eurotrash » |
| . . . I think they're trying to become a Japanese Volvo. And I think they could cause some headaches for the Swedish- they've got the price advantage, the recent crash test results, and they're probably more reliable. ... |
Maybe so on price and reliability, but for safety, I will take Volvo's reputation over anybody's standardized, able-to-be-designed-for crash test result. Thik of it this way, if Volvo was on reliability what they were on safety, they could probably put the Japanese carmakers out of business. Likewise for the Germans if they prioritized performance. The research and resources ($$, accident study teams dispatched to police calls, etc.) that they put into safety are unequaled.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (pktojd)
I agree, but if you look at who has been winning the crash test awards and at Subaru's ads, plus the fact that Volvo hasn't won any awards, what will the avg. consumer think? It is a very simple argument that can probably win over people who don't dig a little deeper. Those crash test videos can make for a very powerful argument for any car.
| Quote, originally posted by pktojd » |
Maybe so on price and reliability, but for safety, I will take Volvo's reputation over anybody's standardized, able-to-be-designed-for crash test result. Thik of it this way, if Volvo was on reliability what they were on safety, they could probably put the Japanese carmakers out of business. Likewise for the Germans if they prioritized performance. The research and resources ($$, accident study teams dispatched to police calls, etc.) that they put into safety are unequaled. |
I agree, but if you look at who has been winning the crash test awards and at Subaru's ads, plus the fact that Volvo hasn't won any awards, what will the avg. consumer think? It is a very simple argument that can probably win over people who don't dig a little deeper. Those crash test videos can make for a very powerful argument for any car.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
Are you kidding me? You believe what you're seeing on these?
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OK, first off. The first video made by the Swedish auto magazine (or what they are, I don't know - never heard of them, but I don't live in Sweden anymore so perhaps it's a new one?). That video may very well have been correct. I have heard from other sources that the Haldex system is good but not great in certain instances. The Subarus are known for their good traction, so I'm not surprised.
There's another video floating around made by a German car show where they drive an Audi Allroad and Volvo XC70 up a steep snowy hill (they drive more cars but those are the only two I remember). The Volvo got pretty far up before getting stuck. It came in second place. The Allroad of course cleared the hill. I'm inclined to trust the performance of that "test" more than the first video.
The second video is a Subaru promo video for their sales staff. It's been fictionalized to pump up the confidence in their sales staff over how great the Subarus are. Even to the somewhat untrained eye of mine, it's obvious the competiion is driven to look bad. What should really tip you off is the XC 70 going sideways and then sliding out of control. It is very very very hard to get an XC to do that - they will normally just plow straight forward, understeering like crazy.
Are you kidding me? You believe what you're seeing on these?
OK, first off. The first video made by the Swedish auto magazine (or what they are, I don't know - never heard of them, but I don't live in Sweden anymore so perhaps it's a new one?). That video may very well have been correct. I have heard from other sources that the Haldex system is good but not great in certain instances. The Subarus are known for their good traction, so I'm not surprised.
There's another video floating around made by a German car show where they drive an Audi Allroad and Volvo XC70 up a steep snowy hill (they drive more cars but those are the only two I remember). The Volvo got pretty far up before getting stuck. It came in second place. The Allroad of course cleared the hill. I'm inclined to trust the performance of that "test" more than the first video.
The second video is a Subaru promo video for their sales staff. It's been fictionalized to pump up the confidence in their sales staff over how great the Subarus are. Even to the somewhat untrained eye of mine, it's obvious the competiion is driven to look bad. What should really tip you off is the XC 70 going sideways and then sliding out of control. It is very very very hard to get an XC to do that - they will normally just plow straight forward, understeering like crazy.
Re: (George @ ViVA)
I agree not to believe everything you see. If you listen to the second video, the narrator does say that these drivers are not professional. They are Subaru sales people trying to demonstrate Subaru as a superior product. Some of the tests are obviously misrepresented. The driver of the Highlander on the wet road appeared to wait until at the very edge of the "roadway" before correcting back to the left causing the back to fishtail and the driver of the XC90 up the 35 degree grade appeared not to even try to make it.
Make sure you know the source of what you are watching.
I agree not to believe everything you see. If you listen to the second video, the narrator does say that these drivers are not professional. They are Subaru sales people trying to demonstrate Subaru as a superior product. Some of the tests are obviously misrepresented. The driver of the Highlander on the wet road appeared to wait until at the very edge of the "roadway" before correcting back to the left causing the back to fishtail and the driver of the XC90 up the 35 degree grade appeared not to even try to make it.
Make sure you know the source of what you are watching.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
I can say categorically that those videos are doctored. I can also say that they are old, and they've lied about the year of the Volvos in the videos. The Volvos are actually pre-2006's.
I have personally driven an XC90 V8 AWD up a sand-covered 35 degree hill, purposefully come to a complete stop, and then floored it. The vehicle didn't stutter, didn't slip, it JUMPED up to the top of the hill. Same with the XC70.
Go take your Volvo out to a large parking lot. I challenge you to TRY to lose control. DSTC won't let you. Now, if you turn off DSTC, then heck yeah you'll lose control (if you don't know how to drive). It is blatantly obvious in the videos that DSTC was completely disabled in the Volvos. I've done those tests in both of these vehicles before, and you just simply can't make them lose control . . . I tried.
I also did another test where you disconnect AWD (rendering the vehicle FWD) and pull only the front wheels onto a sheet of plastic that has been covered in soapy water. Floor it, and the wheels spin and you go no where. Throw the fuse back in, floor it, and the vehicle easily goes across the sheet of plastic because power is sent to the rear wheels.
They did the above test to show the difference between the 2005 AWD system without Instant Traction, and the newer 2006 Instant Traction technology that pre-loads the running gear. With the older system, there was very little wheel spin before power was sent to the rear, and the car went over the plastic. With the newer system, there was ZERO wheel spin and the car just launched.
Anyways, those videos are doctored up hogwash. Don't believe it.
I can say categorically that those videos are doctored. I can also say that they are old, and they've lied about the year of the Volvos in the videos. The Volvos are actually pre-2006's.
I have personally driven an XC90 V8 AWD up a sand-covered 35 degree hill, purposefully come to a complete stop, and then floored it. The vehicle didn't stutter, didn't slip, it JUMPED up to the top of the hill. Same with the XC70.
Go take your Volvo out to a large parking lot. I challenge you to TRY to lose control. DSTC won't let you. Now, if you turn off DSTC, then heck yeah you'll lose control (if you don't know how to drive). It is blatantly obvious in the videos that DSTC was completely disabled in the Volvos. I've done those tests in both of these vehicles before, and you just simply can't make them lose control . . . I tried.
I also did another test where you disconnect AWD (rendering the vehicle FWD) and pull only the front wheels onto a sheet of plastic that has been covered in soapy water. Floor it, and the wheels spin and you go no where. Throw the fuse back in, floor it, and the vehicle easily goes across the sheet of plastic because power is sent to the rear wheels.
They did the above test to show the difference between the 2005 AWD system without Instant Traction, and the newer 2006 Instant Traction technology that pre-loads the running gear. With the older system, there was very little wheel spin before power was sent to the rear, and the car went over the plastic. With the newer system, there was ZERO wheel spin and the car just launched.
Anyways, those videos are doctored up hogwash. Don't believe it.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
I recently replaced my 1997 Subaru Outback with a 2007 XC 90. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
Although the XC 90 is a step-up in size, prestige, and luxury, the Subaru had better traction in snow and off road trails. For business, I need to drive on a variety of farm and timber roads. Both vehicles can traverse these roads, the Subaru just did this better. But heck, with the boxer engine lowering the center of gravity, the Subaru is also better than a Ford F-150 or Explorer.
The Volvo system is fine for snow and mud. I would compare it to an Explorer and better than a F-150. Pickup trucks with their lack of weight over the rear wheels seem to spin their tires or get stuck a lot. This is an area where Subaru shines due to their design. Volvo, on the other hand, should putout a video about their gyroscope anti rollover system.
If I was going to buy a beater for snow and mud, I would buy another Subaru. I needed more space (third row) and wanted a little more style and luxury, so I bought a Volvo. - Just don't get me started on that B9 Tribeca thing.
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I recently replaced my 1997 Subaru Outback with a 2007 XC 90. http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
Although the XC 90 is a step-up in size, prestige, and luxury, the Subaru had better traction in snow and off road trails. For business, I need to drive on a variety of farm and timber roads. Both vehicles can traverse these roads, the Subaru just did this better. But heck, with the boxer engine lowering the center of gravity, the Subaru is also better than a Ford F-150 or Explorer.
The Volvo system is fine for snow and mud. I would compare it to an Explorer and better than a F-150. Pickup trucks with their lack of weight over the rear wheels seem to spin their tires or get stuck a lot. This is an area where Subaru shines due to their design. Volvo, on the other hand, should putout a video about their gyroscope anti rollover system.
If I was going to buy a beater for snow and mud, I would buy another Subaru. I needed more space (third row) and wanted a little more style and luxury, so I bought a Volvo. - Just don't get me started on that B9 Tribeca thing.
don't believe everything that you see/hear....
Currently own 04 V70R and 02 WRX Wagon - wrx is modded, and volvo is stock.
You have to realize a couple of things - there's quite a few differences in the vehicles in mass, weight distribution and stock tendencies that will change the handling GREATLY even on plain dry pavement.
Having driven both at autox and other sundry conditions - I have to say that at the LIMIT, the subaru is just a TOUCH better - simply because of less overall mass of the vehicle, and the mass balance of the car as compared to the volvos. For normal everyday driving, and heck, even at autox - given same type of tyres and so on - both cars AWD systems work just as well. Each system is tuned to the characteristics of each car so that it can excell given what it has inherently.
The volvo is smoother - I don't feel random thwumps on shifts - and the subaru is designed to be beaten...
For me - I tend to do a tinge better in the subaru at autox only because you can throw that car around a lot easier on the tighter courses without as much worry as the V70R with it's greater inertia and mass - and also recover a bit quicker by the same token.
Currently own 04 V70R and 02 WRX Wagon - wrx is modded, and volvo is stock.
You have to realize a couple of things - there's quite a few differences in the vehicles in mass, weight distribution and stock tendencies that will change the handling GREATLY even on plain dry pavement.
Having driven both at autox and other sundry conditions - I have to say that at the LIMIT, the subaru is just a TOUCH better - simply because of less overall mass of the vehicle, and the mass balance of the car as compared to the volvos. For normal everyday driving, and heck, even at autox - given same type of tyres and so on - both cars AWD systems work just as well. Each system is tuned to the characteristics of each car so that it can excell given what it has inherently.
The volvo is smoother - I don't feel random thwumps on shifts - and the subaru is designed to be beaten...
For me - I tend to do a tinge better in the subaru at autox only because you can throw that car around a lot easier on the tighter courses without as much worry as the V70R with it's greater inertia and mass - and also recover a bit quicker by the same token.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (R Salesman)
R Salesman said: "It is blatantly obvious in the videos that DSTC was completely disabled in the Volvos."
Please tell me how to do this. Most of the time I hate the DSTC in my V50 T5 AWD because it's killing all the fun of the driving on snow.
R Salesman said: "It is blatantly obvious in the videos that DSTC was completely disabled in the Volvos."
Please tell me how to do this. Most of the time I hate the DSTC in my V50 T5 AWD because it's killing all the fun of the driving on snow.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (westerkulla)
It is different with the V50s. Anyway, DSTC was an option for that car until MY07. So, you may not have it anyway.
Yannis
| Quote, originally posted by westerkulla » |
| R Salesman said: "It is blatantly obvious in the videos that DSTC was completely disabled in the Volvos." Please tell me how to do this. Most of the time I hate the DSTC in my V50 T5 AWD because it's killing all the fun of the driving on snow. |
It is different with the V50s. Anyway, DSTC was an option for that car until MY07. So, you may not have it anyway.
Yannis
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (GrecianVolvo)
"It is different with the V50s. Anyway, DSTC was an option for that car until MY07. So, you may not have it anyway.
Yannis"
I've got the DSTC for sure. Very bad throttle response and impossible to powerdrift on snow until i push the DSTC button. After that it's possible to drift as long as you keep the lines moderate, tidy and coountersteer early. Terrible rattle from brakes and instant loss of speed on every snowy corner if you get more childish. Also, there's a distinctive smell of brakes when I step out of the car.
I'm going to test the car on closed ice track some day soon. I just hope that the stability control doesn't ruin the brakes or the drivetrain, when it gets really worked?
"It is different with the V50s. Anyway, DSTC was an option for that car until MY07. So, you may not have it anyway.
Yannis"
I've got the DSTC for sure. Very bad throttle response and impossible to powerdrift on snow until i push the DSTC button. After that it's possible to drift as long as you keep the lines moderate, tidy and coountersteer early. Terrible rattle from brakes and instant loss of speed on every snowy corner if you get more childish. Also, there's a distinctive smell of brakes when I step out of the car.
I'm going to test the car on closed ice track some day soon. I just hope that the stability control doesn't ruin the brakes or the drivetrain, when it gets really worked?
Actually, whereas Volvo uses uniform AWD mechanics in all of its vehicles, Subaru provides at least THREE different systems, plus certain modifications to them in higher level models on top of that.
The Subaru Legacy with an automatic transmission e.g. uses a setup that is completely different from that used with the mechanic one, and it is closest to the Haldex setup.
AFAIK, regular Subaru Imprezas up to this moment have been using an automatically lockable center differential with a viscous coupling lock. This ages old type of apparatus is quite primitive and must be hardly competetive with the locking speed of a Haldex unit. However all Impreza owners I spoke too in fact did like it. This is the type of AWD system first used in 1980-es BMW 3er IX-series, at the time when Subaru only produced FWD vehicles.
Impreza WRX STI AFAIK uses a system close to one found in mechanic transmission Legacies, with a planetary gear apparatus, but it also provides manual torque split control and other fancy goodies.
Also, Legacy Spec B uses a viscous limited slip setup in the rear differential in addition to the automatically lockable center diff.
Please note the accuracy of this data is somewhat limited as I researched this topic about 1-2 years ago and have not updates my "knowledgebase" since.
I moved to the S60 AWD from an AWD VW Passat B5 which was based on the Audi A4 with the Torsen/EDL based quattro-IV AWD setup. Its AWD system is superb due to the fact that it goes to great lengths to PREVENT wheel spin before it occurs by intrinsically sending, generally, as much torque as the wheels can only handle, rather than to "catch" wheel spin after excessive torque has already been applied - like pretty much all other automatic AWD systems, including Haldex-based ones. However it has its limits and not insignificant caveats as well, and requires great skill to be managed when driving at the limits or in severely slippery conditions. In fact, this "quattro-quattro" system, as opposed to the Haldex quattro setups found the transversal engine Golf based VW and Audi cars, can become quite helpless and even dangerous is certain situations without an ESP add-on. I personally have experienced both inability to move out of a parking lot when only one wheel was standing on plain ice, and a condition notoriously known as the "spider bite", when, once the limits of torque the Torsen can handle are surpassed, the car becomes totally unstable, suddenly overreacting to steering and gas - this one sudden situation was frightening for sure, and I was happy my car was insured (it was edifying too, of course). The next gen of the quattro-quattro that Audi is now introducing should hopefully cure those ills. I must admit that I would feel much safer in my Volvo in these kinds of situations.
In "mild" slip situations this quattro setup was generally more smooth and fun to drive than the S60 AWD with DSTC, but still nothing crucial. In Moscow, I drive over slippery conditions a lot and S60 proves to be predictable, capable and far from being boring in terms of handling.
The ideology behind Haldex has been evolving for almost 20 years now since the times when Porsche and Mercedes first introduces similar systems in their cars. This is in fact a bit LONGER than the history of Subaru AWD.
In fact all modern automatic AWD systems, while very differerent at hearts, seem to be quite capable. Some select, newer, top-level systems from Subaru (as in WRX STI), VW/Porsche (as in Touareg/Q7/Cayenne) and ESPECIALLY Honda (as in Acura RL) seem to the most sophisticated, but expensive, too.
The Subaru Legacy with an automatic transmission e.g. uses a setup that is completely different from that used with the mechanic one, and it is closest to the Haldex setup.
AFAIK, regular Subaru Imprezas up to this moment have been using an automatically lockable center differential with a viscous coupling lock. This ages old type of apparatus is quite primitive and must be hardly competetive with the locking speed of a Haldex unit. However all Impreza owners I spoke too in fact did like it. This is the type of AWD system first used in 1980-es BMW 3er IX-series, at the time when Subaru only produced FWD vehicles.
Impreza WRX STI AFAIK uses a system close to one found in mechanic transmission Legacies, with a planetary gear apparatus, but it also provides manual torque split control and other fancy goodies.
Also, Legacy Spec B uses a viscous limited slip setup in the rear differential in addition to the automatically lockable center diff.
Please note the accuracy of this data is somewhat limited as I researched this topic about 1-2 years ago and have not updates my "knowledgebase" since.
I moved to the S60 AWD from an AWD VW Passat B5 which was based on the Audi A4 with the Torsen/EDL based quattro-IV AWD setup. Its AWD system is superb due to the fact that it goes to great lengths to PREVENT wheel spin before it occurs by intrinsically sending, generally, as much torque as the wheels can only handle, rather than to "catch" wheel spin after excessive torque has already been applied - like pretty much all other automatic AWD systems, including Haldex-based ones. However it has its limits and not insignificant caveats as well, and requires great skill to be managed when driving at the limits or in severely slippery conditions. In fact, this "quattro-quattro" system, as opposed to the Haldex quattro setups found the transversal engine Golf based VW and Audi cars, can become quite helpless and even dangerous is certain situations without an ESP add-on. I personally have experienced both inability to move out of a parking lot when only one wheel was standing on plain ice, and a condition notoriously known as the "spider bite", when, once the limits of torque the Torsen can handle are surpassed, the car becomes totally unstable, suddenly overreacting to steering and gas - this one sudden situation was frightening for sure, and I was happy my car was insured (it was edifying too, of course). The next gen of the quattro-quattro that Audi is now introducing should hopefully cure those ills. I must admit that I would feel much safer in my Volvo in these kinds of situations.
In "mild" slip situations this quattro setup was generally more smooth and fun to drive than the S60 AWD with DSTC, but still nothing crucial. In Moscow, I drive over slippery conditions a lot and S60 proves to be predictable, capable and far from being boring in terms of handling.
The ideology behind Haldex has been evolving for almost 20 years now since the times when Porsche and Mercedes first introduces similar systems in their cars. This is in fact a bit LONGER than the history of Subaru AWD.
In fact all modern automatic AWD systems, while very differerent at hearts, seem to be quite capable. Some select, newer, top-level systems from Subaru (as in WRX STI), VW/Porsche (as in Touareg/Q7/Cayenne) and ESPECIALLY Honda (as in Acura RL) seem to the most sophisticated, but expensive, too.
I'd like to add to my previous post that the Passat I had was not equipped with an ESP, I guess this was one of the reasons for both the fun and the hazards of the quattro. I did not yet fully try out how the S60 handles with DSTC off. From what I read in most reviews, including ones directly comparing the Passat or other AWD cars with the S60, the Volvo may be not quite equally progressive and potent in slip situations without the stability control... However, with DSTC staying on, I still do not think that the S60 is too much "boring" in everyday situations, while surely being very safe. I also had an opportunity to compare FWD Volvo S80 with DSTC and RWD Mercedes E-klasse with ESP, in winter, and the Volvo system seemed to be much nicer - with considerably milder feel but still extremely effective.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (westerkulla)
In my '07 S60 the DSTC is unfortunately controlled via the trip computer rather than a simple button. So I wonder whether pushing the DSTC button in your car turns it On or Off?
Anyway, AFAIK, brake controls are an intrinsic part of the Volvo AWD setup - its either in the form of DSTC (usually optional) or TRACKS (which is silently a standard feature in all AWD Volvos). TRACKS is supposedly a traction control feature aimed at limiting wheel spin between wheels on the same axles, in effect acting remotely like a limited slip axle differential. Virtually all current automatic AWD setups seem to use one, taking in account that it's barely more than a software add-on to ABS systems. Therefore you will have the brakes correcting wheel rotation with or without DSTC on, albeit with it being turned on you'll probably have considerably more brake action in extreme conditions.
Early AWD systems that relied exclusively on brakes as the means to "lock" otherwise everywhere open differentials existeed, and they were criticized for unreasonable brake wear. This primarily applies to some early Mercedes AWD experiments (as in the original ML-klasse). AFAIK a similar, but more advanced system was used in newer AWD BMW sedans (a consequence being that you can't completely turn off ESP on the previous gen AWD BMW sedans), but they're moving away from it, with modern AWD said to derive their setup from the more advanced X5.
Compared to such systems, logically, a Volvo which is equipped with a true lockable center differential, must not rely on brakes as heavily in any conditions. But that is only "logic", whilst my experience has shown that both logic and hype as applied to cars do not always prove to be true. Anyway there might be a concern with brake wear, but the braking system on the whole can hardly be damaged by a ESP system - they're all over the place now, and note that their action may be frequent, but still much milder than your typical foot braking.
| Quote, originally posted by westerkulla » |
I've got the DSTC for sure. Very bad throttle response and impossible to powerdrift on snow until i push the DSTC button. |
In my '07 S60 the DSTC is unfortunately controlled via the trip computer rather than a simple button. So I wonder whether pushing the DSTC button in your car turns it On or Off?
Anyway, AFAIK, brake controls are an intrinsic part of the Volvo AWD setup - its either in the form of DSTC (usually optional) or TRACKS (which is silently a standard feature in all AWD Volvos). TRACKS is supposedly a traction control feature aimed at limiting wheel spin between wheels on the same axles, in effect acting remotely like a limited slip axle differential. Virtually all current automatic AWD setups seem to use one, taking in account that it's barely more than a software add-on to ABS systems. Therefore you will have the brakes correcting wheel rotation with or without DSTC on, albeit with it being turned on you'll probably have considerably more brake action in extreme conditions.
Early AWD systems that relied exclusively on brakes as the means to "lock" otherwise everywhere open differentials existeed, and they were criticized for unreasonable brake wear. This primarily applies to some early Mercedes AWD experiments (as in the original ML-klasse). AFAIK a similar, but more advanced system was used in newer AWD BMW sedans (a consequence being that you can't completely turn off ESP on the previous gen AWD BMW sedans), but they're moving away from it, with modern AWD said to derive their setup from the more advanced X5.
Compared to such systems, logically, a Volvo which is equipped with a true lockable center differential, must not rely on brakes as heavily in any conditions. But that is only "logic", whilst my experience has shown that both logic and hype as applied to cars do not always prove to be true. Anyway there might be a concern with brake wear, but the braking system on the whole can hardly be damaged by a ESP system - they're all over the place now, and note that their action may be frequent, but still much milder than your typical foot braking.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
I looked at the videos from the first post and it's obvious they're HEAVILY biased and inconclusive.
In those tests for directional stability the Subies are clearly stated to have ESP (VDC in Subie-speak), while Volvos typically sell without the corresponding DSTC standard, which is a shame, but that's how it is. And then, even with ESPs, these tests would not be conclusive since ESP is software which may be programmed with different preferences, meaning different ESP-equipped cars would behave "nicely" or "wrongly" in different situations.
In the climbing tests, ESP is hardly of any help, and I guess both the Passat and XC70 tests might prove, if not doctored, that the Haldex systems are inferior to the Subie's traction sensing device in this particular situation. They most probably are. What I would suggest however, is putting the Subie against an Audi quattro for this test. I'd bet the intrinsic mechanical torque sensing character of the quattro AWD would put the Subies to shame in those tests in terms of climbing speed. Thing is, a quattro vehicle in a climbing situation would be partly rear-wheel drive right from the still (because greater weight at the rear would simply prevent the Torsen differential to send too much torque to the front), meaning adequate amount of torque at the better traction wheels right at the moment the engine torque is applied, whereas the Subie AWD, I believe, requires applied torque to figure out adequate torque distribution before it acts.
In the agility tests, more important are suspension and steering designs than the driveline. That is, these tests, while still questionable from the point of fairness of the driver behind the wheel, do little with AWD systems and could rather illustrate that the Volvo P2 platform is not competetively nimble and balanced. Which IS TRUE, unfortunately. Especially in terms of steering, I find it boring and unwieldy.
As for the suspension test, when I test drove a Legacy, one of the main things that turned me away was how "playfully" its suspension felt over bumps. Ride quality is very subjective.
I looked at the videos from the first post and it's obvious they're HEAVILY biased and inconclusive.
In those tests for directional stability the Subies are clearly stated to have ESP (VDC in Subie-speak), while Volvos typically sell without the corresponding DSTC standard, which is a shame, but that's how it is. And then, even with ESPs, these tests would not be conclusive since ESP is software which may be programmed with different preferences, meaning different ESP-equipped cars would behave "nicely" or "wrongly" in different situations.
In the climbing tests, ESP is hardly of any help, and I guess both the Passat and XC70 tests might prove, if not doctored, that the Haldex systems are inferior to the Subie's traction sensing device in this particular situation. They most probably are. What I would suggest however, is putting the Subie against an Audi quattro for this test. I'd bet the intrinsic mechanical torque sensing character of the quattro AWD would put the Subies to shame in those tests in terms of climbing speed. Thing is, a quattro vehicle in a climbing situation would be partly rear-wheel drive right from the still (because greater weight at the rear would simply prevent the Torsen differential to send too much torque to the front), meaning adequate amount of torque at the better traction wheels right at the moment the engine torque is applied, whereas the Subie AWD, I believe, requires applied torque to figure out adequate torque distribution before it acts.
In the agility tests, more important are suspension and steering designs than the driveline. That is, these tests, while still questionable from the point of fairness of the driver behind the wheel, do little with AWD systems and could rather illustrate that the Volvo P2 platform is not competetively nimble and balanced. Which IS TRUE, unfortunately. Especially in terms of steering, I find it boring and unwieldy.
As for the suspension test, when I test drove a Legacy, one of the main things that turned me away was how "playfully" its suspension felt over bumps. Ride quality is very subjective.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
This video has been discussed at length on other threads, which is the reason that I have not responded previously. HOWEVER, since this thread appears to still have life in it...
It has been suggested that this video is doctored because the Volvo's Haldex unit does not seem to be functioning in the video. Since the Haldex is electronically controlled, it can be disconnected simply by puling a fuse or disconnecting a connector. Not too hard to do if you want to make the Volvo look bad.
| Quote, originally posted by BEST4X4XFAR » |
| Okay, I know AWD system vary by manufacturer, and I understand the concept behind the Volvo Halidex (sp?) system, but is it really that effective when compared to a traditional mechanical AWD system? I had always been a bit skeptical of the idea of waiting for wheel slip before giving the rear wheels power. They say seeing is believing. I came across these videos, and they have pretty much shattered any confidence in the Volvo AWD system for me, both from a stability sense, and ultimate traction. What are your thoughts after viewing the videos? To me, the Volvo Performance looks pretty pathetic, especially the wet road maneuverability stuff... |
This video has been discussed at length on other threads, which is the reason that I have not responded previously. HOWEVER, since this thread appears to still have life in it...
It has been suggested that this video is doctored because the Volvo's Haldex unit does not seem to be functioning in the video. Since the Haldex is electronically controlled, it can be disconnected simply by puling a fuse or disconnecting a connector. Not too hard to do if you want to make the Volvo look bad.
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (V70 Brad)
To me, it is obvious that the Subarus AWD-system has some advantages in the traction area. Will not get into that discussion. The handling test though, in the subaru video, is just laughable... It´s IMO easy to see that the terrible handling in the volvo is being forced...
Someone above mentioned the german video where they test the Audi Allroad vs. volvos and bmws and so on...
Here´s a link:
Mentionable is that the volvo in that video (as in the swedish video linked to in the first post) isn´t a XC70, it´s a 2001 V70 XC. The V70 XC had a Viscous differential, as did the V70 AWD I think.
Edit: Fun to look at XC70 related videos...
Link:
Modified by pxl at 7:08 PM 3-6-2007
To me, it is obvious that the Subarus AWD-system has some advantages in the traction area. Will not get into that discussion. The handling test though, in the subaru video, is just laughable... It´s IMO easy to see that the terrible handling in the volvo is being forced...
Someone above mentioned the german video where they test the Audi Allroad vs. volvos and bmws and so on...
Here´s a link:
Mentionable is that the volvo in that video (as in the swedish video linked to in the first post) isn´t a XC70, it´s a 2001 V70 XC. The V70 XC had a Viscous differential, as did the V70 AWD I think.
Edit: Fun to look at XC70 related videos...
Link:
Modified by pxl at 7:08 PM 3-6-2007
Re: Subaru AWD better than Volvo AWD? (BEST4X4XFAR)
bad example. Tires and suspension. Subaru may as well come with blizzak's. Their stock tires are always going to win going up a muddy hill vs. a volvo or just about anything else. Does the Subaru feel "sporty" like an S60 or A4? Nope. In terms of agility? Once again, you have the Volvo which is geared towards supreme comfort. It's a $50K truck vs. the $30k subaru in that test. Most people who buy that Volvo want a soft, supple, quiet ride and they buy the Volvo because they want to (a) sit high (b) have something more matierial than a subaru, ford, chevy, nissan, etc. and (c) want the comfort a truck with a de-tuned suspension offers. If you want a truck that can kick offroad a$$ than I would think that both the volvo and subaru are in over their head.
Frankly what needs to be asked is what are you going to use your ride for? For some a Subaru is the solution. For others it may be an S60 or A4. Both have their pluses but both are different vehicles for different purposes.
bad example. Tires and suspension. Subaru may as well come with blizzak's. Their stock tires are always going to win going up a muddy hill vs. a volvo or just about anything else. Does the Subaru feel "sporty" like an S60 or A4? Nope. In terms of agility? Once again, you have the Volvo which is geared towards supreme comfort. It's a $50K truck vs. the $30k subaru in that test. Most people who buy that Volvo want a soft, supple, quiet ride and they buy the Volvo because they want to (a) sit high (b) have something more matierial than a subaru, ford, chevy, nissan, etc. and (c) want the comfort a truck with a de-tuned suspension offers. If you want a truck that can kick offroad a$$ than I would think that both the volvo and subaru are in over their head.
Frankly what needs to be asked is what are you going to use your ride for? For some a Subaru is the solution. For others it may be an S60 or A4. Both have their pluses but both are different vehicles for different purposes.
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