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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We own a 1999 s70 that has about 150k miles on it. Lately when you come to a stop the engine wants to die on you. Sometimes, it does die out and you have to scramble to restart. On highway-car runs fine. Problem only happens when you slow to a stop-the engine wants to die. I really don't know what problem is, no check engine lights are on, air filter is clean, plugs are good. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. Thanks <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/confused.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Could be a few things....<p>Mass Airflow Sensor, fuel pressure problem, but could also be ETM. Do the RPMs dip waaaay down when stopping?<p>Is the idle very rough when starting cold?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: (ecbsykes)

Yes-rpm's drop way down when coming to a light or stop sign. Then before engine almost dies (sometimes it actually does) rpm's jump up to over idle (about 1000 rpm) then it drops to normal idle-about 700-800 rpm. Then it runs normally-it does this with air on or off-doesn't matter. It seems to be much worse when stopping suddenly-if you come to a stop sign and brake heavily engine most times will die-if you come to a gradual stop-engine rpm's will drop but won't die. Idle is not rough when first starting. Any help is appreciated-dealer here is a jerk and charges waaay to much for service. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (jbm37421)

i had some of the same shinanagins on my 98 S70. turned out it was a evap line with a pin hole in it. it was OEM and never replaced (i checked the records) but the dealersh*t told me that someone routed the line wrong and it was rubbing on the axel. along with all the idle issues (before having the evap line replaced) i changed all the turbo lines, cleaned the throttle body and also the idle control valve. Before even replacing the line that was faulty it was basically fine. the only reason i had it done was because that was the code and i was sick of the x-mas tree on my dash. if you get a CEL have it checked for free at autozone, advanced auto parts, ect ect. but i would think maybe youve got some gunk built up in your idle control valve or maybe even the throttle body. if no codes pop up i would try cleaning them both and see how it turns out. also seafoam never hurt (within reason)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: (KurT5)

I thought I was fairly knowledgeable when it comes to cars, but, how does a small hole in the evap line cause the engine to lose engine rpms when the car is slowing down? I'll try cleaning idle control valve (can you point out where that is?) and throttle body-had a similiar problem on a 1994 850 we owned-turned out to be a crack in hose from air cleaner to throttle body-replaced it and never had another problem-checked this hose-seems to be good.
 

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Re: (jbm37421)

right under your throttle cover there is a small cylinder ish piece saying bosch on it that would be the idle control valve
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (jbm37421)

Had the exact same problem on my '98 XC. Smoke tested it and no leaks - it was the MAF. Replaced it and cleaned the IAC and runs like a champ again. Noticeably better gas milage as well. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (KurT5)

if it turns out you need a MAF i have a brand spanky new one for sale and also one that was used. i think before droppin some cash on the MAF i would try CNC MAF cleaner it might help unless its toast toast<br>
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: S70 engine dying (orbital1)

That makes the most sense-the 850 we had was dying due to hole on line from throttle body to air filter-seeing too much air. This makes the most sense-can't believe I didn't think of it sooner-what's IAC? Thanks for your help <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (jbm37421)

IAC is idle air controller / control valve. when i was having similar symptoms i ran through just aboot everything. started with cleaning the MAF, replaced turbo lines, checked intercooler hoses, cleaned the TB & IAC, checked the throttle cables ect ect. It definatly helped almost erase the problem (minus the code). After having the real issue fixed it was amazing after. ran like a champ no idle bounce no stutter ect. I believe in all cars stage 0 should be done regardless of future tuning plans or not. it saves gas money, preventative maintenance lowers repair bills (large ones) and you know that your car is tip top shape
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: S70 engine dying (KurT5)

Cleaned everything, throttle body, throttle plate, mass air, air filter, idle control valve-engine runs great-no loss of rpm's when coming to stop. I did notice that when I was cleaning everything, I noticed an amount of oil in the hose running to the throttle body from what appears to be a crankcase vent line? I don't think there's supposed to be that much oil coming out of that hose-can the crankcase vent system need cleaning?
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (jbm37421)

good to hear that its runnin solid now
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (jbm37421)

I also have a 99 S70 and I'm on ETM number 6 and MAF sensor number 5, so can speak a little about your car's symptoms.<p>It does seem that you have one of the earlier stages of ETM failure, though, as pointed out, the MAF sensor is also a possiblity.<p>If your engine starts acting up again (and if the ETM is failing, a cleaning can give you good results for a short while before it does it again), then you can distinguish between the ETM and MAF sensor failure as follows...<p>First, the ETM will fail regardless of the weather, while the MAF sensor will more likely cause problems on hot and/or humid days, i.e. those times when the MAF sensor is providing the largest correction to the throttle plate position.<p>Second - if the engine seems like it wants to stall, force a downshift with the console - one gear is enough. If the ETM is failing, doing this will force the throttle plate to a position where the throttle position sensor is likely not worn, and you'll temporarily get around the stalling problem (until you upshift LOL). If the MAF sensor is failing, downshifting will have no effect since the sensor is "doing its thing" regardless of engine speed.<p>Third - one symptom of MAF sensor failure is a sputtering effect, often at highway speed. I have never had an ETM do this.<p>Fourth - ETM failure often includes "hunting at idle" where the engine speed fluctuates while you're sitting at idle speed. I have never had an MAF sensor do this.<p>Hope this helps. Also hope that you don't need a new ETM. Your 10 year ETM warranty is likely expired, or is about to do so, and a new ETM, parts and labor, plus software, runs close to $1000 these days.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: S70 engine dying (1999s70)

so far, your response makes the most sense and I believe has hit the nail on the head. As you have indicated (and we have experienced) shifting down one gear has eliminated this problem. Trouble is, I don't want to risk transmission damage. So I think we have a ETM problem that I have temporarily fixed by cleaning the throttle plate, throttle body, MAF, air cleaner, etc. I'm not as knowlegable as I would like(frankly I am already more knowledgable than I want)-what is the ETM and where is it located? If Volvo is warranting this part for ten years-it appears to me that they are fully aware of this problem. very similiar to the brake controller valve on my 2004 e500 mercedes. If you could let me know a little more about this ETM I sure would be thankful <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (jbm37421)

I, too, have become much more knowledgeable about the air intake of my car than I wish I need to. LOL.<p>The ETM's main function is to allow the correct amount of air through the intake system. I think of it like a carburetor, except that there's no fuel in the mixture at this point, only air. The mass airflow (MAF) sensor continuously monitors the temperature and humidity of the air, and provides small corrections to the ETM throttle plate. ETM stands for Electronic Throttle Module. The 'electronic' problem is that the throttle position sensor, which is a strip of resistance film, gets worn from the constant rubbing of the throttle plate. Once it's worn beyond a certain point, the throttle position sensor is no longer able to communicate to the car's computer about the position of the plate, and vice versa. That's when things start getting interesting, and your throttle seems to be getting there.<p>There is no definitive formula for the life of the ETM, except to say that continually forcing the throttle plate to remain at the same location, e.g. by driving most of the time at a constant highway speed, tends to reduce the ETM's life - mine don't last much beyond 60 to 80 thousand miles. On the other hand, a wide variety of speeds prolongs the part's life, and I know of several that have gone well over 200K.<p>ETM cleanings have become SOP at many Volvo dealerships because doing this can prolong the life of a failing throttle module, perhaps just enough to allow it to pass out of warranty.<p>You won't damage your transmission if you downshift one gear, even at highway speeds, then upshift when the ETM hiccup clears. I'm on throttle number 6, so I've had a number of failing throttles with which to contend, and my transmission is the original with 422,000 miles on it. Your transmission downshifts on its own when, for example, you push the accelerator down in order to pass, and there's no problem at highway speeds with doing that, of course.<p>The ETM issue is a very famous (infamous, more likely) problem with the same ETM used in 1999, 2000 and 2001. After quite a bit of legal wrangling, Volvo agreed to extend the warranty of these ETMs to a maximum of 10 years from the original date of car purchase, or 200,000 miles, whichever comes first, and to reimburse people who had already replaced their ETM. Obviously, the 10 years is just about up for 1999 models.<p>The ETM is located along the air intake, just before the intake manifold. Find the air cleaner. There is a large air hose coming out of it, towards the engine block. At the air cleaner end of this hose, attached to the output side of the cleaner, is the mass airflow (MAF) sensor. At the intake manifold end of the hose is the ETM - a large silver part.<p>My experience has been that a failing ETM often takes the MAF sensor with it. Nobody has satisfactorily explained why, but my theory is that the car's computer detects that the throttle plate is not right, and the MAF sensor tries to compensate for this, eventually toasting itself. I have never had both fail at precisely the same time - the MAF sensor will start showing signs of failure a few days after an ETM replacement.<p>Replacing the ETM, unfortunately, requires the car's software to be reloaded, so you can't do it yourself, nor can it be done at every Indy shop. The actual ETM change itself is probably about 15 minutes, but look to be charged something like 1.5 hours of labor, even if there's no diagnostic time needed (like you show up with the car in limp home mode and the dashboard ETS light lit), plus the part and gasket. You can replace the MAF sensor yourself - I've done mine a few times - takes about 5 minutes and I can tell you how if you're interested. In fact, I keep a spare MAF sensor in my garage (price just went up, it's now $330, or so, at my dealer, but $250 from FCP Groton) and I automatically replace the MAF sensor preventatively whenever the throttle is replaced. When a new MAF sensor goes in, I buy another one shortly thereafter.<p>Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: S70 engine dying (1999s70)

I get it-it's what I call the throttle body-the thing with the butterfly value in it. Air comes though mass air-then goes through hose into ETM where it meters air to go with metered fuel for correct combustion. I cleaned throttle plate and body with carb cleaner along with mass air metering value(I think it's the thing on the hose from mass air to ETM just after mass air) Car seems to be running much better but what I call the crankcase vent hose(hose from under intake to hose just before ETM) seems to have excessive amount of oil running into ETM. Can this be cause of my trouble as well? I have read a little regarding the Volvo PCV(?) system-seems kind of bass ackwards to me. Should this system be cleaned? I f so, what is easiest way to do this? I really, really don't want to take intake off motor if at all possible to get to what I think is called the canister. Anyway-I am going to find it very difficult to pay 1000 for ETM, downloads, etc when car's value is only twice that (probably would be more except my daughter hit a tree with back end and did what local body shop said was 4500 damage to it.) It is a very safe car but has been less than inexpensive to maintain for my daughter to go to college in. fortunately-she will be buying her own new car and the volvo will be passed to my 21 year old son for him to drive and maintain. Thanks to everyone on this site-we have changed brakes front and rear, rebuilt calipers, taken interior apart and repaired, changed half shaft boots and regreased cv joints, and in near future hope to change timing belt as well. This site is very informative and has helped me maintain on old car which probably would have been long gone. Thanks for your help. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (jbm37421)

Glad that I could have been of help, and you're correct on your understanding of what's going on.<p>As for the oil... you might try to have the breather box (what I think you're calling the 'canister') cleaned and/or replaced. Mine was replaced at around 240K, and it's not cheap, either, though somewhat less expensive than the throttle. Cleaning it should be a long-term maintenance item, like the timing belt, or even at a longer interval. But it's not. If that's clogged, my understanding is that the throttle body becomes an alternate site for crankcase garbage to be sent. And, yes, it's bass ackwords. Further - the 850 used to have a part called the flame trap, essentially a plastic honeycomb, that acted as a filter for fumes coming from the crankcase and going into the intake manifold. Once the throttle body was introduced in the S70, the flame trap was eliminated - with the thousand dollar throttle body taking the place of the $3 flame trap's filtering.<p>As for replacing the thing... the cost of ownership for my car has been exceptionally low in terms of "repairs." I separate out maintenance (plugs, belts, hoses, tires, brakes, fluids, etc.) from repairs (throttles, for example). Given my mileage, the cost of repairs, by my definition, has been remarkably small - not much more than a penny per mile (Volvo has paid for two of my five throttle replacements).<p>About the cost - I just had mine done - list price was around $980, installed. Now... I'm a member of the Volvo Club of America - many dealers offer a 10% discount for members - my local dealer does not, but I pursuaded the service dept to give me the discount, anyway. Saved $100 that way. And... since you have a 100K+ car - call Volvo's "personal shopper" at 800-550-5658 and get your High Mileage Club certificate which comes with a coupon good for a 20% rebate on parts used for any future service (within a year, or so), up to $100. Saved another $100 since the throttle body itself is around $600, or so. Yeah, it's still a lot of money - but $780 is better than $980. Is it worth it? Only you can decide - but if you need an extra car for one child or another - or as a "station car" - or a beater for those trips where you don't want to mess up the interior of something else - then it's worth it, for sure.<p>And if you do replace the ETM, buy a Mass Airflow Sensor ($250, shipped free from FCP Groton - the list price of the part is $338 at my local dealer) and have it on hand - if you still have hesitation and surging after replacing the ETM, replace the MAF sensor (5 minutes, and all you need is a 10mm socket and a screw driver). In my experience (and that of several Volvo dealerships and Indys), the ETM takes the MAF sensor with it a decent percentage of the time (my personal record is 4 out of 5, but the sample size is too small to draw a conclusion). In my case, I keep a spare MAF sensor on hand, and I replace it as a matter of routine if the ETM is replaced.<p>Oh - and if your car has over 200K miles on it - you can get both a 100K certificate and 200K certificate from Volvo - <U>each</U> with a 20% coupon. You could use one coupon for the breather box and MAF sensor (I'm not 100% sure if Volvo will allow the coupons to be used for Volvo parts bought and installed by you, so you'd have to ask) and the second for the throttle.<p>Good luck. Hope this helps.<br>
 

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Re: S70 engine dying (1999s70)

I too have had the annoying idle drop on my '00 S70 GLT. The car otherwise ran fine and I was repeatedly assured that nothing was wrong. The rpm would drop to between 500-600, and seemed to be influenced by how quickly I came to a stop and the temperature outside.<p>My car now has about 105,000 miles on it. After reading the forums I decided to replace the PCV system components. Despite the dealers giving me the "you shouldn't need to do that" crap I went ahead with the repair. Sure enough, one of the vacuum lines (coming off of the manifold/banjo bolt) which is similar in diameter to a <B>plastic coffee stirrer</B> was clogged. <br>I no longer have the idle drop!!!! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> I'm NOT the type thats going to wait for a smoking oil dipstick to complete the repair.
 
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