PDA HPDE2 group on Sat April 4th<p><IMG SRC="http://www.tracktimephotos.com/large/2009/20090404_LRP_DE2_0432.jpg" BORDER="0"><p><IMG SRC="http://www.tracktimephotos.com/large/2009/20090404_LRP_DE2_0034.jpg" BORDER="0"><p><IMG SRC="http://www.tracktimephotos.com/large/2009/20090404_LRP_DE2_0192.jpg" BORDER="0">
R @ LimeRock, CT
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Nice pictures! How was it, and how did the R do?
Re: (cmurphy2266)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>cmurphy2266</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice pictures! How was it, and how did the R do? </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I pulled this from another post i just did in the morning. This was my assesment. I was running 17" Sport edition rims. Toyo Proxes 4 235/45r17, Evolve slotted 2 piece rotors Fnt and rear, Evolve Steel braided lines, Track spec sways, Dot4 fluid. <br>------<p>It was a lot of fun. Was two 20 minute sessions and one 30 minute session. I was only in 3rd -4 gear at 4K+ rpm always.<p>As much as I loved doing it and set the car up so I could, with 2 piece rotors, swaybars, etc, and as much abuse as I give it on the street, I realized that tracking it is eventually going to kill it. I think a dedicated track car is the way to go and not the daily driven R. It's just too nice to destroy.<p>As far as performance goes. The brakes are a great improvement but still fade. I had an overheat error go off and shut off my traction control. I think the dust plates on the back of the rotor need to come off and air vents into the wheel wells need to be installed to solve this issue. <p>Tire composition also probably played a role in grip but it was wet so these might run a bit better in wet than in dry against a track specific R comp. Tire pressure also could have played a major role in my performance issue. I had no reference point to work from.<p>I also think that unless you have extreme camber and some front toe out specific for track use, the stock daily driving alignment doesn't cut it for good cornering. I'm not saying the car is not capable because with a track specific set up it would be but would kill the street driving ability.<p>I'm basing this on the track prepped VW GTI I rented in Nurburgring last week.<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by PMPN8EZ at 12:23 PM 4-6-2009</i>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>cmurphy2266</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice pictures! How was it, and how did the R do? </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I pulled this from another post i just did in the morning. This was my assesment. I was running 17" Sport edition rims. Toyo Proxes 4 235/45r17, Evolve slotted 2 piece rotors Fnt and rear, Evolve Steel braided lines, Track spec sways, Dot4 fluid. <br>------<p>It was a lot of fun. Was two 20 minute sessions and one 30 minute session. I was only in 3rd -4 gear at 4K+ rpm always.<p>As much as I loved doing it and set the car up so I could, with 2 piece rotors, swaybars, etc, and as much abuse as I give it on the street, I realized that tracking it is eventually going to kill it. I think a dedicated track car is the way to go and not the daily driven R. It's just too nice to destroy.<p>As far as performance goes. The brakes are a great improvement but still fade. I had an overheat error go off and shut off my traction control. I think the dust plates on the back of the rotor need to come off and air vents into the wheel wells need to be installed to solve this issue. <p>Tire composition also probably played a role in grip but it was wet so these might run a bit better in wet than in dry against a track specific R comp. Tire pressure also could have played a major role in my performance issue. I had no reference point to work from.<p>I also think that unless you have extreme camber and some front toe out specific for track use, the stock daily driving alignment doesn't cut it for good cornering. I'm not saying the car is not capable because with a track specific set up it would be but would kill the street driving ability.<p>I'm basing this on the track prepped VW GTI I rented in Nurburgring last week.<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by PMPN8EZ at 12:23 PM 4-6-2009</i>
Re: (PMPN8EZ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>PMPN8EZ</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>I pulled this from another post i just did in the morning. This was my assesment. I was running 17" Sport edition rims. Toyo Proxes 4 235/45r17, Evolve slotted 2 piece rotors Fnt and rear, Evolve Steel braided lines, Track spec sways, Dot4 fluid. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Are you seriously still running OEM pads? You upgraded in the wrong order. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"><br>Do Motul 600 fluid first, then track pads (Ferodo DS2500 or similar), then rig up some ducting if you still have problems, then finally aftermarket rotors if you still aren't happy.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>PMPN8EZ</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>I pulled this from another post i just did in the morning. This was my assesment. I was running 17" Sport edition rims. Toyo Proxes 4 235/45r17, Evolve slotted 2 piece rotors Fnt and rear, Evolve Steel braided lines, Track spec sways, Dot4 fluid. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Are you seriously still running OEM pads? You upgraded in the wrong order. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"><br>Do Motul 600 fluid first, then track pads (Ferodo DS2500 or similar), then rig up some ducting if you still have problems, then finally aftermarket rotors if you still aren't happy.
Re: (Warpedcow)
Hey Warpedcow,<p>I'm running a pad in between stock and track. Medium compound. Not OEM pads. Not strictly track pads either. I spent 2 much on rotors and don't really want to kill them with track pads. This could be part of problem. I've talked to some guys about brake fluid and I'm running Dot 4 which is what they sell at the speed shop at Lime Rock and what they said was fine.<p>The braking is much better than stock but still not good enough that I was confident that I could brake to a stop on demand. They are stock diameter and not 14.5 or 15" that the M cars use. There were times on the course that I had to brake lightly because of the over heating. An instructor took the car out and he overshot a corner out of a straight due to this issue. Seems like the brakes arent there sometimes. I did notice a slight leak at the valve on the front driverside brake. I heard this could be normal due to extreme temps.<p>There could also be an underlying issue with my brake booster valve or even my master cylinder. <p>The rotors are directionally veined so they pull air from the center and blow it out. Issue is with the front dust shield on it only pulls from the outter edges of the shield which is where the hot air is blowing from and I believe it is just recycling hot air and heating the rotors up.
Hey Warpedcow,<p>I'm running a pad in between stock and track. Medium compound. Not OEM pads. Not strictly track pads either. I spent 2 much on rotors and don't really want to kill them with track pads. This could be part of problem. I've talked to some guys about brake fluid and I'm running Dot 4 which is what they sell at the speed shop at Lime Rock and what they said was fine.<p>The braking is much better than stock but still not good enough that I was confident that I could brake to a stop on demand. They are stock diameter and not 14.5 or 15" that the M cars use. There were times on the course that I had to brake lightly because of the over heating. An instructor took the car out and he overshot a corner out of a straight due to this issue. Seems like the brakes arent there sometimes. I did notice a slight leak at the valve on the front driverside brake. I heard this could be normal due to extreme temps.<p>There could also be an underlying issue with my brake booster valve or even my master cylinder. <p>The rotors are directionally veined so they pull air from the center and blow it out. Issue is with the front dust shield on it only pulls from the outter edges of the shield which is where the hot air is blowing from and I believe it is just recycling hot air and heating the rotors up.
Re: (PMPN8EZ)
You have something wrong with your brakes. I have well over 1000 miles at WGI on my R and know the brakes well. Speeds at WGI well exceed LRP, and something is amiss with your results.<p>Please take this as constructive comments............
You have something wrong with your brakes. I have well over 1000 miles at WGI on my R and know the brakes well. Speeds at WGI well exceed LRP, and something is amiss with your results.<p>Please take this as constructive comments............
Re: (JimLill)
Yeah I've known something is wrong for a while. Just no real way to prove it and dealer isn't going to do something because it stops the car at normal speeds. It sometimes feels like there is water on my brakes half way through my stop. This is the whole reason I went to 2 piece rotors and they actually feel only a little better than stock. I was told my braking distances will be greatly improved and it really isn't. I'm going to speak with Don at Evolve and see what he says. The pads that he gave me i don't think are the problem. I think it is the brake booster valve. The first one i had cracked in half when we pulled the hoses off of it, meaning it was cracked and leaking and the 2nd one in the beginning had Zero modulation. I think it is as bad as the first one. What do you think?<p>The GTI i rented with stock brakes and race pads was able to take much more abuse and longer periods of braking than my car can.
Yeah I've known something is wrong for a while. Just no real way to prove it and dealer isn't going to do something because it stops the car at normal speeds. It sometimes feels like there is water on my brakes half way through my stop. This is the whole reason I went to 2 piece rotors and they actually feel only a little better than stock. I was told my braking distances will be greatly improved and it really isn't. I'm going to speak with Don at Evolve and see what he says. The pads that he gave me i don't think are the problem. I think it is the brake booster valve. The first one i had cracked in half when we pulled the hoses off of it, meaning it was cracked and leaking and the 2nd one in the beginning had Zero modulation. I think it is as bad as the first one. What do you think?<p>The GTI i rented with stock brakes and race pads was able to take much more abuse and longer periods of braking than my car can.
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Re: (PMPN8EZ)
This sounds similar what a lot of people have been complaining about, the dreaded "uphill braking" issue, which I have also experienced and it does feel exactly like you said, like halfway through the braking it feels like the brakes just lose grip.<p>It's disconcerting and pretty dangerous, although like you said, in normal driving there's no issue. I doubt the dealership is going to be testing panic stops.<p>Have you tried replacing your second brake booster valve? There was some talk of the ABS going into an "ice mode" and reducing braking application as well, which may be related.
This sounds similar what a lot of people have been complaining about, the dreaded "uphill braking" issue, which I have also experienced and it does feel exactly like you said, like halfway through the braking it feels like the brakes just lose grip.<p>It's disconcerting and pretty dangerous, although like you said, in normal driving there's no issue. I doubt the dealership is going to be testing panic stops.<p>Have you tried replacing your second brake booster valve? There was some talk of the ABS going into an "ice mode" and reducing braking application as well, which may be related.
Left front caliper will leak just a tad at the top/outside bleeder when it get's hot...not really a big deal.<p>You need better pads and fluid. Stock blank rotors work fine. Try it and you will be surprised.<p>First time ever on track I used stock fluid/stock pads. Brakes weren't doing anything after 2 laps. Went to Hawk DTC70's and Motul RBF600, and the brakes work fantastic corner after corner. I also took the dust shields off the fronts, and ran 3 inch ducting from the front grilles.
Re: (JoshV70_)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoshV70_</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>You need better pads and fluid. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I second the motion. Before throwing money at unknown problems, get some Ferodo DS2500 pads from Zeckhausen and some Motul 600 from your favorite online parts store.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JoshV70_</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>You need better pads and fluid. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I second the motion. Before throwing money at unknown problems, get some Ferodo DS2500 pads from Zeckhausen and some Motul 600 from your favorite online parts store.
Re: (Warpedcow)
here is the issue. If i put track pads on wont that heat up the rotors even more. I'm throwing codes right now which is shutting down my traction control. I had this issue when I went to break in my rotors. I understand that grippier track pads will work better at higher temps. I'm almost willing to run the track pads all the time on the road since this is an issue during street driving.<p>Is the Motul 600 fluid different than dot 4. Does it work under higher temps?
here is the issue. If i put track pads on wont that heat up the rotors even more. I'm throwing codes right now which is shutting down my traction control. I had this issue when I went to break in my rotors. I understand that grippier track pads will work better at higher temps. I'm almost willing to run the track pads all the time on the road since this is an issue during street driving.<p>Is the Motul 600 fluid different than dot 4. Does it work under higher temps?
Track pads will heat up rotors more, however the pads are meant to work at higher temps. They don't work that great when they are cold. Don't worry about that message on your dash regarding traction control. I have used track pads for driving to track events, no real issues.<p>Motul 600 has a very high wet boiling point is 312 degrees C and 593 degrees F.
Re: (PMPN8EZ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>PMPN8EZ</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">here is the issue. If i put track pads on wont that heat up the rotors even more. I'm throwing codes right now which is shutting down my traction control. I had this issue when I went to break in my rotors. I understand that grippier track pads will work better at higher temps. I'm almost willing to run the track pads all the time on the road since this is an issue during street driving.<p>Is the Motul 600 fluid different than dot 4. Does it work under higher temps?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Yes, track pads will build up more heat, that's why you need better fluid and perhaps the TiSpeed shims as well. However, that warning message that shuts off "Spin Control" (TRACS) is based off duty cycle of the brakes, and not heat. If you're melting your pads or boiling your fluid, you have to push on the brake pedal a lot more and a lot harder to stop - thus the computer sees a high duty cycle and throws the error. With proper pads and fluid, the pad-rotor friction stays very high and you don't need to use the brakes nearly as much, so the warning is less likely to show up, even though the brakes are actually hotter - they can handle the heat now!<p>FWIW, the CTS-V pads are the same shape but different thickness if memory serves. I think Jim Lill or someone else used to maintain a guide for this sort of thing... IMHO the Ferodos are still a pretty good price from Zeckhausen, especially considering how durable they are. The Ferodo DS2500 also has great cold bite, I leave them on all summer without issue, no need to swap back and forth at the track. I only run OEM pads in the winter when my snow tires are on.<p>Almost forgot... Motul 600 is DOT 4 compatible but labeled as DOT 4+ since it exceeds the spec. You can mix it with OEM fluid without worry. Same deal with the ATE Super Blue that is about halfway between the DOT 4 spec and Motul 600.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>PMPN8EZ</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">here is the issue. If i put track pads on wont that heat up the rotors even more. I'm throwing codes right now which is shutting down my traction control. I had this issue when I went to break in my rotors. I understand that grippier track pads will work better at higher temps. I'm almost willing to run the track pads all the time on the road since this is an issue during street driving.<p>Is the Motul 600 fluid different than dot 4. Does it work under higher temps?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Yes, track pads will build up more heat, that's why you need better fluid and perhaps the TiSpeed shims as well. However, that warning message that shuts off "Spin Control" (TRACS) is based off duty cycle of the brakes, and not heat. If you're melting your pads or boiling your fluid, you have to push on the brake pedal a lot more and a lot harder to stop - thus the computer sees a high duty cycle and throws the error. With proper pads and fluid, the pad-rotor friction stays very high and you don't need to use the brakes nearly as much, so the warning is less likely to show up, even though the brakes are actually hotter - they can handle the heat now!<p>FWIW, the CTS-V pads are the same shape but different thickness if memory serves. I think Jim Lill or someone else used to maintain a guide for this sort of thing... IMHO the Ferodos are still a pretty good price from Zeckhausen, especially considering how durable they are. The Ferodo DS2500 also has great cold bite, I leave them on all summer without issue, no need to swap back and forth at the track. I only run OEM pads in the winter when my snow tires are on.<p>Almost forgot... Motul 600 is DOT 4 compatible but labeled as DOT 4+ since it exceeds the spec. You can mix it with OEM fluid without worry. Same deal with the ATE Super Blue that is about halfway between the DOT 4 spec and Motul 600.
Re: (PMPN8EZ)
Here's my previous R at Infineon (Sears Point) near Napa, CA. The red R behind me was my son's S60R. We tracked for two days and had a blast. The R's did great and surprised a lot of people. oclv<p><IMG SRC="http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss123/oclv454/IMG_5286.jpg" BORDER="0">
Here's my previous R at Infineon (Sears Point) near Napa, CA. The red R behind me was my son's S60R. We tracked for two days and had a blast. The R's did great and surprised a lot of people. oclv<p><IMG SRC="http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss123/oclv454/IMG_5286.jpg" BORDER="0">
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