I know that springs have been covered ALOT in here. I have researched every spring topic and still cannot get the answer that I am looking for. That's where you experts come in. Ok here is the deal.... the manufacturer designs the springs with the shocks (so they work well together) i.e. proper height for the spring when no load is on the car...also they calibrate the spring with partial and full loads as well. (you guys already know this) These two parts(springs and shocks) work together because of how the designers fabricate them. If you change the springs (I am looking into the TME) and the ride height is lets say 1/2 inch drop all the way around. What is keeping those "stock shocks) from being ruined or damaged because of the "ORIGINAL" set up being altered.????? I would think if the "stock" springs are at a certain height and then you lower them 1/2 inch that the shocks are now "at rest" alot lower than stock, I would think if the shock is not designed to "rest" at this height that it would put alot of "stress" on those shocks because they are being compressed at a different rate than they were designed to be. Would'nt that be the reason that the dealer will not warranty "different springs" All help is much appreciated. Hopefully this message is not to convaluted" Thanks Rick
PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (MASH)
there are several vehicles that have different hieghts to meet different standards. For example I think the R32 is a car that will handle much better in Europe due to the ones that come to america have to have a taller ride hieght to meet certain standards.
Your stock shocks problably will wear out sooner with aftermarket shocks. All shocks will wear out eventually just like performance brakes will wear out pads sooner.
You got to pay to play.
there are several vehicles that have different hieghts to meet different standards. For example I think the R32 is a car that will handle much better in Europe due to the ones that come to america have to have a taller ride hieght to meet certain standards.
Your stock shocks problably will wear out sooner with aftermarket shocks. All shocks will wear out eventually just like performance brakes will wear out pads sooner.
You got to pay to play.
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (R_Rated)
Thanks. Usually shocks last 50,000-100,000 miles. At least the last 3 cars I have owned have. What life expectancy would you guess for aftermarket springs and the life of the shock. The shock on our cars are 500.00 a piece.
Thanks. Usually shocks last 50,000-100,000 miles. At least the last 3 cars I have owned have. What life expectancy would you guess for aftermarket springs and the life of the shock. The shock on our cars are 500.00 a piece.
This is just a guess but I would say 10-20% less lifetime than normal. That is a cheap price to pay for the improvement on these cars. The EVOLVE(on my car) springs are the most aggressive and the car is still very comfortable to ride in.
If you are going to get shocks to frequent a track then it all depends on how often you go to the track and how aggressive you drive. There is no way to calculate this. By going to the track you WILL wear things out and break things.
If you are going to get shocks to frequent a track then it all depends on how often you go to the track and how aggressive you drive. There is no way to calculate this. By going to the track you WILL wear things out and break things.
Joined
·
21,310 Posts
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (MASH)
Ok, I am no spring and shock expert, so take my response with a grain of salt. However.....
If you were to simply cut down the stock springs to lower the car, I might agree with your logic. However, the TME springs are STIFFER than the stock springs. Remember, springs carry the primary weight of the car, not the shocks. The shocks are for damping. I would think that by running stiffer springs, the shocks would actually see LESS load. I believe that this is the reason that the 4C system is working better with stiffer springs...because the car is supported more by the springs, wheel movements would be transferring less force to the shocks. So since the shocks don't have to "stiffen up" as much, you have a better ride...and less side hop.
Also, I don't believe that a shock's damping is dependant on it's position. This is a regular shock, and I'm not sure how the 4C's work, but I would think that if it's changing the valving on the shock piston, than it would also be position independant. So as long as you're not running out of total travel on the shock piston, you shouldn't be wearing the shocks any more.
Now, I have NO idea where the shock piston is in relation to its travel, and whether you'll run out of travel or not with a deeper drop TME.
And yes, tracking will beat your car up more...but regardless of what springs you are running. It's just a function of the increased loads generated by accel / decel, etc.
That's just my $0.02.
Ok, I am no spring and shock expert, so take my response with a grain of salt. However.....
If you were to simply cut down the stock springs to lower the car, I might agree with your logic. However, the TME springs are STIFFER than the stock springs. Remember, springs carry the primary weight of the car, not the shocks. The shocks are for damping. I would think that by running stiffer springs, the shocks would actually see LESS load. I believe that this is the reason that the 4C system is working better with stiffer springs...because the car is supported more by the springs, wheel movements would be transferring less force to the shocks. So since the shocks don't have to "stiffen up" as much, you have a better ride...and less side hop.
Also, I don't believe that a shock's damping is dependant on it's position. This is a regular shock, and I'm not sure how the 4C's work, but I would think that if it's changing the valving on the shock piston, than it would also be position independant. So as long as you're not running out of total travel on the shock piston, you shouldn't be wearing the shocks any more.
Now, I have NO idea where the shock piston is in relation to its travel, and whether you'll run out of travel or not with a deeper drop TME.
And yes, tracking will beat your car up more...but regardless of what springs you are running. It's just a function of the increased loads generated by accel / decel, etc.
That's just my $0.02.
It won't effect the life of the shock at all, imo. The shock is simply that. The shocks on the R are being adjusted all the time , regardless of spring rate. What changes with the 4C setting is the valving. It's hard to explain, but simply, there are valves within the shock that adjust all the time.... regardless of 4C setting.
SO, changing your spring rate may have a positive effect or negative. With the current stock springs, as floaty as they are, I can only imgine that with improved springs the shocks will work slightly less as. This is all dependent as to what roads you drive on.
Lets say I drive in advanded on rough roads all the time. The valving/seal will be worn out faster than a person that drove on perfectly smooth roads all the time while in advanced.
It's hard to explain, but if you google rebound/dampening/coil rate you will find some information that would help you understand the usage of a shock.
Kevin
SO, changing your spring rate may have a positive effect or negative. With the current stock springs, as floaty as they are, I can only imgine that with improved springs the shocks will work slightly less as. This is all dependent as to what roads you drive on.
Lets say I drive in advanded on rough roads all the time. The valving/seal will be worn out faster than a person that drove on perfectly smooth roads all the time while in advanced.
It's hard to explain, but if you google rebound/dampening/coil rate you will find some information that would help you understand the usage of a shock.
Kevin
Joined
·
3,113 Posts
Re: (R_Rated)
Wrong. A stiffer spring rate = less suspension travel overall. That means the stock shock has to function less. Less function leads to greater life.
Plug it into your software and you'll see I'm right.
| Quote, originally posted by R_Rated » |
| stiffer stprings react faster than stock and the stock shock has to work faster/harder. Not enough +/- life to worry about. |
Wrong. A stiffer spring rate = less suspension travel overall. That means the stock shock has to function less. Less function leads to greater life.
Plug it into your software and you'll see I'm right.
Joined
·
21,310 Posts
Re: (KVB)
Yes, weight does have a factor, in the form of force.
Remember, the equation for a spring is F=-k*x where F is force, k is the spring constant (stiffness) and x is the position of the mass on the end of the spring. By increasing the stiffness of the spring, you decrease the travel for a given force.
Therefore, for a given car encountering a given load, the stiffer spring will travel less.
| Quote, originally posted by KVB » |
Sorry, but you are very wrong. A stiffer spring rate does NOT = less suspension travel. I think wieght has a factor in that. 
Kevin |
Yes, weight does have a factor, in the form of force.
Remember, the equation for a spring is F=-k*x where F is force, k is the spring constant (stiffness) and x is the position of the mass on the end of the spring. By increasing the stiffness of the spring, you decrease the travel for a given force.
Therefore, for a given car encountering a given load, the stiffer spring will travel less.
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (MASH)
I think an important point you are missing is he SUM calibration that you must perform when you swap springs.
I believe this tells the 4C system that the height the is now is the proper height, and to adjust dampening appropriately from the current elevation.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the system malfunctioning because the car is a different height. Remember, with every passenger and suitcase you load the car lowers, and the 4C handles it just fine. Volvo would have to put a huge disclaimer on the car that said:
"Please note if your spouse weighs over 200 lbs and rides with you regularly, the springs will be at a greater compression and your 4C shocks will wear out much quicker. Don't even think about letting the fat in-laws ride in the back, that is why we put so little rear leg-room back there."
| Quote, originally posted by MASH » |
| If you change the springs (I am looking into the TME) and the ride height is lets say 1/2 inch drop all the way around. What is keeping those "stock shocks) from being ruined or damaged because of the "ORIGINAL" set up being altered.????? I would think if the "stock" springs are at a certain height and then you lower them 1/2 inch that the shocks are now "at rest" alot lower than stock, I would think if the shock is not designed to "rest" at this height that it would put alot of "stress" on those shocks because they are being compressed at a different rate than they were designed to be. |
I think an important point you are missing is he SUM calibration that you must perform when you swap springs.
I believe this tells the 4C system that the height the is now is the proper height, and to adjust dampening appropriately from the current elevation.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the system malfunctioning because the car is a different height. Remember, with every passenger and suitcase you load the car lowers, and the 4C handles it just fine. Volvo would have to put a huge disclaimer on the car that said:
"Please note if your spouse weighs over 200 lbs and rides with you regularly, the springs will be at a greater compression and your 4C shocks will wear out much quicker. Don't even think about letting the fat in-laws ride in the back, that is why we put so little rear leg-room back there."
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. ("R" Kelly)
Thanks to you all. I now understand. What were the brand of springs that only dropped the car 5/8th inch. I see how the shocks would have to work alot less at keeping up with a stiffer spring. And also understand that the shock with stiffer springs would work harder only for a short time and would not have to try to "keep up" as much as they do with the stock springs.
Thanks to you all. I now understand. What were the brand of springs that only dropped the car 5/8th inch. I see how the shocks would have to work alot less at keeping up with a stiffer spring. And also understand that the shock with stiffer springs would work harder only for a short time and would not have to try to "keep up" as much as they do with the stock springs.
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (MASH)
Mash,
I think your question was more regarding overall vs reduced travel of the shock absorber?
Also the fear that the shock might be operating at a lower point and with it the chance that the shock might bottom out? and because of this damage it's valve?
Both the front and rear suspension have bump stops. The travel is limited by this bump stop.
If the lowering would have caused a negative affect by riding the bump stops many people would have been complaining by now.
The normal lowering, Eibach, Evolve (Not sure on the rear axle..) and now the TME springs operate within this range. Even when riding the bump stops the shock will not bottom out.
Like some people said shocks wear. My S60R had a rear shock replaced already while the car was driving with the stock suspension for 30K miles. In this case the shock was leaking oil.
Oh, one other thing.. you might check the Caps Lock on your keyboard...
![]()
Mash,
I think your question was more regarding overall vs reduced travel of the shock absorber?
Also the fear that the shock might be operating at a lower point and with it the chance that the shock might bottom out? and because of this damage it's valve?
Both the front and rear suspension have bump stops. The travel is limited by this bump stop.
If the lowering would have caused a negative affect by riding the bump stops many people would have been complaining by now.
The normal lowering, Eibach, Evolve (Not sure on the rear axle..) and now the TME springs operate within this range. Even when riding the bump stops the shock will not bottom out.
Like some people said shocks wear. My S60R had a rear shock replaced already while the car was driving with the stock suspension for 30K miles. In this case the shock was leaking oil.
Oh, one other thing.. you might check the Caps Lock on your keyboard...
Joined
·
2,680 Posts
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (MASH)
I'm sure everyone will recall that the natural frequency of vibration of a spring-mass-damper system is proportional to the spring constant, and that the damping coefficient for critical damping is proportional to the natural frequency.
![]()
In other words, stiffer springs require stiffer shocks to control motion optimally, but IMHO, such academic distinctions are trivial in this case.
The only thing to be worried about it "topping out" or "bottoming out" the shocks against their internal stops. I wouldn't worry.
I'm sure everyone will recall that the natural frequency of vibration of a spring-mass-damper system is proportional to the spring constant, and that the damping coefficient for critical damping is proportional to the natural frequency.
In other words, stiffer springs require stiffer shocks to control motion optimally, but IMHO, such academic distinctions are trivial in this case.
The only thing to be worried about it "topping out" or "bottoming out" the shocks against their internal stops. I wouldn't worry.
Re: PLEASE TELL ME WHY AFTERMARKET SPRINGS WOULD NOT RUIN THE SHOCK. (MASH)
TME available from http://www.ipdusa.com
| Quote, originally posted by MASH » |
| What were the brand of springs that only dropped the car 5/8th inch. |
TME available from http://www.ipdusa.com
Re: (KVB)
I thought Volvo uses magnetic-fluid shocks which is really cool but some quick googling shows only GM is usig this technology.
Go to this link and do a CTRL-F and find "volvo" and you'll jump right to the piece related to this http://www.epinions.com/content_113876569732
Not a big deal since I believe 4C boast 500 adjustments/second versus the 1000/secod for GM's magnetic-fluid shocks.
This link explains the technology:
http://www.djc.com/news/ae/11151055.html
Does anyone know how Volvo controls the valves for the 4C system?
LTA
| Quote, originally posted by KVB » |
| ... What changes with the 4C setting is the valving. It's hard to explain, but simply, there are valves within the shock that adjust all the time.... regardless of 4C setting. Kevin |
I thought Volvo uses magnetic-fluid shocks which is really cool but some quick googling shows only GM is usig this technology.
Go to this link and do a CTRL-F and find "volvo" and you'll jump right to the piece related to this http://www.epinions.com/content_113876569732
Not a big deal since I believe 4C boast 500 adjustments/second versus the 1000/secod for GM's magnetic-fluid shocks.
This link explains the technology:
http://www.djc.com/news/ae/11151055.html
Does anyone know how Volvo controls the valves for the 4C system?
LTA
Re: (R Salesman)
less travel but travels faster and more load since it is already somewhat comressed/lower.
![]()
| Quote, originally posted by R Salesman » |
Wrong. A stiffer spring rate = less suspension travel overall. That means the stock shock has to function less. Less function leads to greater life. Plug it into your software and you'll see I'm right. |
less travel but travels faster and more load since it is already somewhat comressed/lower.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
