[dubh055]

Yeah, the first words out of service writer's mouth were to "talk about incidentals". He caught it when we both rolled our eyes at the same time, so he was careful to be a little more specific. We figure they're gonna be looking to make something off this.

We don't know yet if it's just rings and pistons or new engine. He said they can tell us more when they get the head off. Which puzzles me just a little bit. I have a 40 dollar fiber optic scope that can easily visualize cylinder bores. That's not that high tech any more, and I'd think a service department could do the same thing to save some time on initial diagnosis.

Spark plugs are a given. At 100k, might as well. If it's only rings, then timing belt and serp belt are probably a given at 100k as well. He said they can't really save the coolant, and it will need coolant. No kidding. Do people really ask them to save the coolant and reuse it at 100k?

As for any other "incidentals", that's TBD when they get an idea what route they're taking.

 

[dubh055]

The lifetime warranty certainly is good for people who use the dealership and keep their cars for a long time.

I don't know if there's a creative way to bill out your job now that there is an extended warranty on it. If they could find a way to bill it out and bill you for some of it to get the lifetime warranty, that would be the way to go.

At the very least, now is a good time to buy any "while you're in there" parts if you're going to keep the car a while. The block comes with the timing components, but I'd buy a drive belt and associated pullies at the minimum. Anything else would be up to you depending how long you want to keep the car. Alternator? Compressor? Supercharger? It can all add up but lifetime warranty on all that plus a new engine should give you peace of mind for a while.

Absolutely agree with all this. She's been doing some number penciling and looking at trade or sale value. Discussion to be had with dealer about creative billing and possible warranty. That's good to think about.

If it gets new engine, then it's definitely a keeper. Just ring and piston replacement leaves a sour taste for waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sure, that most likely will be a successful fix, but then it becomes a wait to see if it defecates the bedsheets just a little farther down the line. It casts a cloud over the perception of reliability and she might just dump it after the repair. At least she wouldn't be unloading an oil burner on some poor soul looking for a deal on a used Volvo.

 

[MyVolvoS60]

Absolutely agree with all this. She's been doing some number penciling and looking at trade or sale value. Discussion to be had with dealer about creative billing and possible warranty. That's good to think about.

If it gets new engine, then it's definitely a keeper. Just ring and piston replacement leaves a sour taste for waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sure, that most likely will be a successful fix, but then it becomes a wait to see if it defecates the bedsheets just a little farther down the line. It casts a cloud over the perception of reliability and she might just dump it after the repair. At least she wouldn't be unloading an oil burner on some poor soul looking for a deal on a used Volvo.

95% piston and rings when done right, no future issues. I've got 40k plus on engine since piston, rings, serpentine belt, tensioner, timing kit, and plugs. Zero issues.

 

[Tech]

Yeah, the first words out of service writer's mouth were to "talk about incidentals". He caught it when we both rolled our eyes at the same time, so he was careful to be a little more specific. We figure they're gonna be looking to make something off this.

We don't know yet if it's just rings and pistons or new engine. He said they can tell us more when they get the head off. Which puzzles me just a little bit. I have a 40 dollar fiber optic scope that can easily visualize cylinder bores. That's not that high tech any more, and I'd think a service department could do the same thing to save some time on initial diagnosis.

Spark plugs are a given. At 100k, might as well. If it's only rings, then timing belt and serp belt are probably a given at 100k as well. He said they can't really save the coolant, and it will need coolant. No kidding. Do people really ask them to save the coolant and reuse it at 100k?

As for any other "incidentals", that's TBD when they get an idea what route they're taking.

A scope like that can help give an idea if there may be scoring, but sometimes what may look like scoring actually isn't. You may see it on the scope but not be able to feel it with your fingernail and if that's the case, it doesn't get an engine.

When I did rings or pistons and rings, I never had a problem billing coolant and oil to warranty. Same with spark plugs. Maybe things have tightened up since I've been gone though.

 

[dubh055]

A scope like that can help give an idea if there may be scoring, but sometimes what may look like scoring actually isn't. You may see it on the scope but not be able to feel it with your fingernail and if that's the case, it doesn't get an engine.

When I did rings or pistons and rings, I never had a problem billing coolant and oil to warranty. Same with spark plugs. Maybe things have tightened up since I've been gone though.

Yeah, I'm wondering if Volvo requires head removal and video/pics of scoring before they'll send a new engine. If that's policy, I get it, but it seems like they could save some teardown labor if they knew it needed an engine right off the bat.

I agree with you about the coolant and oil. I thought it was strange that he needed to tell us that it will need coolant. Although, I can't imagine what kinds of conversations they're having with customers over this repair campaign. He said they're doing a lot of them. It can't be fun dealing with people who are already pissed off about it.

 

[Tech]

When I was doing them, there was no way to get an engine covered without having the head off to feel the scoring. I'm sure that hasn't changed. Not a huge deal, I could get the head off pretty quickly. I'd always start there so I didn't waste time dropping the pan for nothing.

 

[dubh055]

When I was doing them, there was no way to get an engine covered without having the head off to feel the scoring. I'm sure that hasn't changed. Not a huge deal, I could get the head off pretty quickly. I'd always start there so I didn't waste time dropping the pan for nothing.

That's pretty much what I figured. Did you take vid or pics to show customers? Does Volvo require pics to prove it as well?

 

[Tech]

That's pretty much what I figured. Did you take vid or pics to show customers? Does Volvo require pics to prove it as well?

Volvo takes the engine back so if I replace it and it didn't need it, the claim can be debited.

If it was straight warranty, I'd just order it.

If it was partial goodwill, the customer would be advised prior that the numbers could change. We'd give them the price if the job didn't need an engine and the price if it did prior to doing anything.

 

[dubh055]

Volvo takes the engine back so if I replace it and it didn't need it, the claim can be debited.

If it was straight warranty, I'd just order it.

If it was partial goodwill, the customer would be advised prior that the numbers could change. We'd give them the price if the job didn't need an engine and the price if it did prior to doing anything.

Tech, bear with me here. I appreciate your candor.

We're understandably cautious and skeptical about this process. If they decide cylinders are ok and not badly scored, and they go for rings/pistons, I assume they'll properly bottle brush the cylinders and restore a decent crosshatch, right? Otherwise, I don't see this as more than a band-aid fix. Forgive me if it's a dumb question, but they're under the microscope in our eyes on this one.

We're also concerned about them upselling parts (incidentals) to get some profit on this, and that may cloud their decision on rings vs engine replacement. We know they can upsell more parts as incidentals that would otherwise come on a new engine at no charge. Sorry if that sounds hypercritical, but Volvo doesn't have a good track record with her on this up to now.

We feel that they've been putting her off and delaying a proper OCT (since early 2020) to avoid this issue until the 100k mark. Every time the oil warning came on, she'd stop on the way home from work and they'd tell her they're too busy to even look at it quick, just add a quart. Seems like a quick hookup to VIDA would tell them how much oil it needed. I can do that with an OBD2 reader, but this was before we met. This was at least 5 times between oil changes, and this was after the first OCT, which said her consumption was WNL. And now we know Volvo considers using less than a quart in 650 miles to be WNL. Holy crap, I'd be raising unholy hell about servicing that engine way before that if it was my car, but we've made plenty of noise about it already. She's had several conversations with owner about this.

She's not happy and I get a little more pissed off every time I go with her and talk to them about this. I'm darn glad I'm not a service writer for a Volvo dealership right now, but my empathy extends only so far when we're talking about thousands of dollars in repairs for an acknowledged engineering defect, regardless who's paying for it .

 

[Island_V70]

Sadly putting something off as "normal" until the warranty runs out is not unknown. The XXX high end dealer here had my mother's car in at 98,000 miles to have some complaints looked at. "All those cars do that." At 102,000 miles it was "OMG this thing is about to croak, we can fix it for $6,000 now the warranty has run out"

 

[dubh055]

Sadly putting something off as "normal" until the warranty runs out is not unknown. The XXX high end dealer here had my mother's car in at 98,000 miles to have some complaints looked at. "All those cars do that." At 102,000 miles it was "OMG this thing is about to croak, we can fix it for $6,000 now the warranty has run out"

100%. We'd have trouble naming an automaker that doesn't do this. Even if you document the issue while it's still in warranty, they'll claim they're doing you a favor by "good willing" it. Service writer has the attitude that they're doing us a favor by fixing an acknowledged engineering defect.

Still not excusable, and we shouldn't mind calling them out for it.

 

[FredH]

Sadly putting something off as "normal" until the warranty runs out is not unknown. The XXX high end dealer here had my mother's car in at 98,000 miles to have some complaints looked at. "All those cars do that." At 102,000 miles it was "OMG this thing is about to croak, we can fix it for $6,000 now the warranty has run out"

If you have the documents proving the issue was put to Volvo before the warranty expired, and the later documents at 102,000 miles indicate the $6,000 "fix" is the solution only 4,000 miles later, it shows bad faith on the part of the dealer. Your mother's timely claim during warranty period still stands and Volvo remains responsible if the documents say what what you've described. Of course, it's unlikely the dealer will accept Volvo's responsibility without some pressure being brought to bear.

 

[Island_V70]

If you have the documents proving the issue was put to Volvo before the warranty expired, and the later documents at 102,000 miles indicate the $6,000 "fix" is the solution only 4,000 miles later, it shows bad faith on the part of the dealer. Your mother's timely claim during warranty period still stands and Volvo remains responsible if the documents say what what you've described. Of course, it's unlikely the dealer will accept Volvo's responsibility without some pressure being brought to bear.

Not everyone has the time, energy, and a spare car to be able to deal with what could be a months-long fight with a dealer that may not even prevail.
I wasn't even specifically picking on Volvo, I have personally seen Volvo, Mercedes, and BMW do this. I complained about a BRAND NEW Mercedes using a quart of oil every 500 miles from when the car had 500 miles on it for YEARS. I finally got a repair near the end of the warranty, they put a new cylinder head on. They then forgot to attach a couple of hoses, the car would barely go 30 MPH, and despite me driving it about 3 miles round trip from the dealer back to the dealer, they at first denied all responsibility and didn't want to fix it
* me threatening to abandon it locked blocking their entrance helped them get motivated

 

[Tech]

They don't do any sort of honing. If there are no indications of excessive scoring (defined as scoring you can feel with your fingernail), they replace the pistons and rings (or rings on 5 cylinders).

Regarding upselling incidentals, wait until they determine what it needs. An engine comes with spark plugs and timing components. I've gotten plugs covered when doing pistons and/or rings without issue.

Regarding them kicking the can down the road previously, if the car was out of warranty and she stopped in with a low oil light, it's a much easier path to top it off and send her on her way rather than tell her they need to do an oil consumption test (that she would have to pay for) to determine if there was consumption (which there clearly was) and then the repair would be expensive.

Now that there is a way for them to get Volvo to pay for the test and repair, it's a lot easier.

 

[wujek]

Not sure about petrol vea engines but diesel engines have technical journal and it says about changing piston rings if the oil consumption is too high. My car has had done it at cca. 100k miles on the clock, they replaced also a lot of internals etc. but as the car was at the extended service program they did not charge for that at all. I asked them how much would this cost if I had to pay for that - cca. 4500 euro ~4000 $. Problem was resolved without machining the block, they take measurments but they do not make honing. Now it runs well, and the problem is gone.

 

[dubh055]

They don't do any sort of honing. If there are no indications of excessive scoring (defined as scoring you can feel with your fingernail), they replace the pistons and rings (or rings on 5 cylinders).

Regarding upselling incidentals, wait until they determine what it needs. An engine comes with spark plugs and timing components. I've gotten plugs covered when doing pistons and/or rings without issue.

Regarding them kicking the can down the road previously, if the car was out of warranty and she stopped in with a low oil light, it's a much easier path to top it off and send her on her way rather than tell her they need to do an oil consumption test (that she would have to pay for) to determine if there was consumption (which there clearly was) and then the repair would be expensive.

Now that there is a way for them to get Volvo to pay for the test and repair, it's a lot easier.

Interesting. In the past, I've known it to be customary to knock the glaze off the cylinder walls and restore the crosshatch to give better lubrication and wear in of the rings, but I've been reading about needing to do this less because of improved metal technology and better tolerances, as long as cylinder walls aren't significantly scored.

She kept insisting that the car was using too much oil, and she did have one OCT, which was WNL at 84k. But she kept having to add oil more frequently and she got the distinct impression they were just blowing her off and didn't want to investigate it, especially when they told her it needed a newly revised OCT at significant cost to her. And no one wanted to take the time to discuss it in depth with her at all. After we met, internet research brought us here and then we gathered all the TJs, VIN info, engine serial number, and other specifics. That led to a lengthy discussion with owner and decision to comp a second OCT before the letter came out and now it's a done deal.

So, the car was done today. They replaced pistons and rings over the weekend. We didn't expect that and we didn't ask them to expedite. We were fine if it took a week or longer. They most likely wanted it done and gone so they could move on to the others. They're doing several a week now.

No charge for any incidentals, even though she said she understood some things might need to be replaced. Pistons, rings, timing set, serp belt, oil, filter, coolant, and attendant gaskets and various parts, all warranty work. Total cost to her zero. She has always been assertive, but not uncivil or rude. It paid off.

So, if the repair campaign letter still applies to anybody here, stay on top of it and make sure you get clarification if you need it. No one has ever been overly rude to her, but we can see this is a big thorn in a dealer's side. They don't make these cars, but they're the face of Volvo that customers have to deal with.

 

[FredH]

Not everyone has the time, energy, and a spare car to be able to deal with what could be a months-long fight with a dealer that may not even prevail....

...Total cost to her zero. She has always been assertive, but not uncivil or rude. It paid off....

As Island_V70 says, not everyone has the time or energy to insist that Volvo honor its obligations, but for those that do like dubh055, it can pay off in spades. When the complaint is timely made before the warranty expires, don't roll over simply because the dealer fails to make the fix before that expiration date.

 

[dubh055]

As Island_V70 says, not everyone has the time or energy to insist that Volvo honor its obligations, but for those that do like dubh055, it can pay off in spades. When the complaint is timely made before the warranty expires, don't roll over simply because the dealer fails to make the fix before that expiration date.

Agree. I think the timing of all this was also in her favor. Vehicle service date is June 2015, and she had 97k on odo, kind of a perfect storm to jump on it. We were talking to owner at the same time that Volvo was in the process of sending that letter, unbeknownst to us. I suspect he's been pulling his hair out prior to this with all the other conversations and unsavory customer interactions over this issue, since it's been an ongoing problem with these engines. He's a fairly high volume dealer and he probably has lot of these floating around out there. Service writer indicated as much to us, so I'm not really surprised if he as a tech working overtime to get these taken care of. We didn't ask or expect them to do it over the weekend, but it was a nice touch. (they probably needed the loaner back ASAP as well. LOL)

We were in the middle of performing revised OCT when she got the letter, so it was slam dunk at that point and the only sticker was rings or new engine. As Tech said he was often able to do, they comped all associated incidentals under the warranty, which was also a nice touch.

I hope this helps somebody else dealing with this. We've found other owner accounts helpful here.

Tech, if you're reading this, thanks for the insights into the mechanics of the process.

 

[dubh055]

They don't do any sort of honing. If there are no indications of excessive scoring (defined as scoring you can feel with your fingernail), they replace the pistons and rings (or rings on 5 cylinders).

Tech, I have to say it surprised me that the cylinders weren't scored, with oil consumption at more than a quart in 600 miles, but maybe all that excess was coating those bores really well and it was extra lubrication.

How does a car burn this much oil and and not foul the cat or throw an emissions code?

 

[Tech]

Tech, I have to say it surprised me that the cylinders weren't scored, with oil consumption at more than a quart in 600 miles, but maybe all that excess was coating those bores really well and it was extra lubrication.

How does a car burn this much oil and and not foul the cat or throw an emissions code?

I never had one burning oil with a current code related to the cat or oxygen sensors. Never had one come back shortly after repair with those either, but they could have come in since I left.