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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Guys,<br> In my effort to modify the car in different ways I dont think anyone has played with Nitrous yet on an S40. Now I know there are differing opinions regarding such juice but this is more of a general question concerning Nitrous and its applications on a Turbo Charged car.<p>I have been looking around and it seems that nitrous kits that are out there are supposed to be installed into the intake before the throttle body....except if you have a Turbo in which case it will just make the turbo spin faster (aka: wasted money). I havent been able to get a good look at the innards of our cars so im not sure how the full intake track works, but would Nitrous work on our cars in the conventional sense of a dry/wet shot into the engine? If so, what would be the best placement for such an injection? Im curious to see reactions and if people think nitrous could be used in the conventioal way, if it needed to be placed/sprayed on the intercooler, or if a water/meth system would be better for our cars to produce more HP. Preciate the responses guys.
 

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You asked a lot of questions here.<p>Yes, nitrous can be used conventionally (wet shot) on turbo Volvos. This will create scads of exhaust gases, causing the turbo to spool to unseen boost levels. The tiny internal wastegate, even at full open, will not be able to vent all the excess boost, creating an unstoppable overboost situation. Your car's ECU, seeing the uncontrollable overboost, will react accordingly, cutting fuel, timing, etc. If it doesn't blow up. My point is, on an ME7 car, you will need custom ECU tuning to allow for the use of any noticable shot of nitrous.<p>Spraying the intercooler with nitrous or C02 can show great power gains, probably up to 20hp on an S40 T5. It would be wise to first invest in a front mount intercooler.<p>Water\methanol injection is also a good solid investment. It will allow your car to run maximum timing under boost, so the car will run at it's full potential.<p>I'd say an FMIC with C02 spraying and water injection would be the best idea. Nitrous is a little dangerous for an S40.
 

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Nebor to the rescue, thanks for the idea. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"><p>How hard is it to install an FMIC? And where would I find one, i mean, are they general or they have to be suited to the car?
 

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Best bet would be finding your local import performance shop. Generally a place that does a lot of work on Evos or STI should be able to take a generic Spearco or other type of intercooler core, and build the custom piping and mounting brakcets necessary to make it work for your car. Expect this to cost between $400 and $1000.<p>You could buy a core off ebay, then attempt to purchase pre-bent aluminum piping and silicon couplers and piece together your own FMIC piping. <p>As far as something that's Volvo specific, it doesn't exist yet.
 

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Re: (cicatrizdare)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>cicatrizdare</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How hard is it to install an FMIC? And where would I find one, i mean, are they general or they have to be suited to the car?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Have you even looked at the front of your car? "Where would I find one"... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/rolleyes.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: (tmtalpey)

Thanks for the input. I was actually talking to the guys who Dyno'ed my car and I think im going to get them to put a larger intercooler with a nitrous/CO2 sprayer on it and all requsite piping. <p>In two weeks im going back over there and they are going to do some measurements for the FMIC and see what parts are out there that would fit. Hopefully, since the S40 already has a FMIC, it wont be to hard to place a larger or more efficient one up there and then strenghten the piping all around.<p>Nebor, where would you suggest the water/meth system go in the whole setup? before the throttle body on the intake? I know some other's have put a aquamist system after the IAT sensor on the exit piping of the FMIC but I thought that with a nitrous/CO2 spray would be completely redundant. Also, what are the benefits of CO2 compared to nitrous?<p>Thanks again for the help and hope to have some more info for you guys as the weeks unfold.<br>
 

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Re: (Tarheelvolvo)

no free lunch, you can cool the turbo boost all you want but it does make the turbo work harder, which could be a bad thing for a marginal turbo. Niot really an issue on a high flow high pressure turbo, but this ain't it.
 

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Re: (tmtalpey)

I guess i assumed there was a diff between the stock one and another, or upgraded. I knew there was one there..but I was under the impression that they could be upgraded.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: (Oldman)

So I double checked with my buddy in Singapore and he says he put the Aquamist system into his intercooler track post FMIC to give the air an extra cool boost. <p>If I were to put a CO2/Nitrous spray on the intercooler, im assuming it would be completely redundant to also have the water injection system on the same track. So then does anybody know exactly where the throttle body is on the S40? I would like to locate that then move back a few inches and install a water/meth injection then get maybe Marco to come specially tune my ECU to advance the timing a bit to get the most out of the water/meth injection, DP, exhaust, and CO2 spray.<p>Anyone know when Marco is coming back stateside? TIA
 

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Re: (cicatrizdare)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>cicatrizdare</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How hard is it to install an FMIC? And where would I find one, i mean, are they general or they have to be suited to the car?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Correct me if I'm wrong but the T5 already has a FMIC. If you look in the lower grille, it's right there. So if you want you can try to find a bigger intercooler with same width and piping and install. I don't think they should be any or very little piping work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: (volvoNB)

VolvoNB, the T5 does and it's actually infront of the radiator this time (volvo liked to put them behind in previous iterations of their T5 engine (read: previous S70's and 850's)).<p>The piping should be okay but it never hurts to upgrade if your going with a larger intercooler anyway. Maybe get some SAMCO silicone hoses up front to handle the extra cooling capacity.<p>Glad to see lots of chatter on this subject!<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (Tarheelvolvo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Tarheelvolvo</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it never hurts to upgrade</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I respectfully disagree. Besides, what evidence do you have that the LPT is driving enough air to require a larger IC, and/or that IAT is rising to the point that one is needed?<p>Here's a generalization, take it for what it's worth. The Volvo is a well-engineered, well-integrated system. Even the most obvious standalone change will have ramifications outside of the change itself, from interactions with other factors. (For example, increasing IC diameter increases the pressurized volume driven by the turbo.) While it's certainly possible to improve the system, it's by no means as simple as bigger-is-better. If you find something that works though, by all means bring it back here!<p>Tom.
 

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Using a nitrous or C02 spray on an intercooler coupled with water\methanol injection you can see IATs MUCH below ambient temperature. Although either one would work fine by itself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: (tmtalpey)

I hear you Tom, and I plan on getting the whole system together with a new turbo, exhaust manifold, and full DP-cat back exahust system as well as the larger FMIC and all subsequent piping and cooling required. <p>I agree with you that I have no categorical evidence that the Volvo FMIC is poor in its cooling capabilites for the turbo supplied from the factory (in fact I might say it does a pretty good job based on my Dyno runs thus far). But as you advance the timing and create more boost on either this turbo or a new one, heat is going to become a factor as well as pre-detonation which leads down the path of water injection, nitrous/CO2 sprayer, and FMIC to keep everything cool and working at the optimal temp/output even with WOT. <p>Who knows, maybe im just throwing money away by upgrading the FMIC before I get a new turbo and subsequent exhaust system. But R&D takes risk and money and since im willing to do it and then share the fruits of my labor with the rest of the community I hope it wont all be in vain, haha! <p>At any rate, it is well known that many factory cars, unless built for speed straight from the factory like a porsche 911 Turbo, are built for the masses (and yes, even then 911 has room for improvement but not a whole lot!) but we are what is classified as the 1%. That group of owners who pushes the car to its limits because we are crazy gearheads or just have a love for and get exhiliration from speed/customization. So cars are not built for the 1% they are built for the 99% who is happy just crusing along in their rides and enjoy them as they are....me, ive always been into customization since age 12 when I started tooling around with the family cars so its in my blood and I guess its something people either get or they dont....sorta like girls and their constant (at least mine....sorry if I offend) need to accessorize their outfits when two pairs of shoes will do....no need for 20...but then again I dont get it so I just leave it be. <p>Sorry for the rant but Tom, you do have valid points and ones that I am certainly taking in consideration and have thought myself. I started this thread to see what other thought about the subject and see if we can think outside the box (ie: chip, intake exhaust) and really create some wilder customizations for the Volvo! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: (Nebor)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Nebor</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Using a nitrous or C02 spray on an intercooler coupled with water\methanol injection you can see IATs MUCH below ambient temperature. Although either one would work fine by itself.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Wouldnt the ECU compensate for the reduced temp and try and limit fuel flow or something? The reason I ask is that I thought it would be better to place the systems after the IAT in the intake track to get better cooling efficiency while maintaining current fuel/air levels. <p>Clearly in a bit new to this world of tuning but very curious and appreciate the help thus far. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (Tarheelvolvo)

in general the cooler the IAT reads the more fuel and the more advance the ECU will give within the program limits of course. So it is always good to get the IAT into the game plan. <p>Like I've said above, cooling the boost or increasing the boost makes the turbo work harder and this may not be the best thing to ask for a way small turbo.
 

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Re: (Oldman)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Oldman</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cooling the boost ... makes the turbo work harder</TD></TR></TABLE><p>How do you figure? <p>Lower IAT doesn't equal more stress on turbo... ?
 

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Re: (Tarheelvolvo)

if you are using it in conjunction with tuning, then its better to have the IAT recording actual ambient temperature... that way a tuner can get the most accurate gauge of how far to advance ignition temps.<br>just that in our car, stupid IAT probe is right at the intercooler exit core, so not possible.<p>if you are going with a nitrous spray on the FMIC, make sure you have a set up where you have multiple nozzles and not just 2. to give you any idea, stick your hand out of the window at when you are doing say 60mph... thats the kind of force your spray has to counter to get a decent spray coverage over the FMIC.<p>tarheel, whilst CO2/nitrous spray on the FMIC is not a bad idea, in a way, theres no substitute for a good FMIC. i wouldnt consider CO2/nitrous just because of the cost and hassle.<p>also,for me, cooling down IAT is a big issue because of local tropical temps.<p>before you decide which route to go down, i sugges you MAP your IATs with an OBD sensor to see what kind of temp spikes you are getting on WOT.<p>as a rough rule of thumb, everything up to around 60+ degrees C is okay, but once over about 70, the stock ECU will start retarding timing.<p>
 

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Re: (Tarheelvolvo)

S60R uses two front mounts, two the same size as our one front mount if I recall. There is room for a second one if you plumb them in series it should be easy and provide double the area with little increase in piping distance....resulting in little increase in lag. Which is to say it would still probably have zero lag.<p>Also, the water/meth injection would be a good idea. I also think the nitrous injection with lower shot #'s is feasible and something I've considered myself. Maybe a 35shot would be controllable. The cooling effect of the nitrous may offset the added exhaust pressure to prevent damage from higher boost resulting from the possible overboosting.<br>Only one way to find out, but I'd surely be interested in your results. If it were me, I'd run a wet kit though so that both fuel and N2O were independent of the existing volvo fuel system.
 
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