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From the seller...

"...It is a 122 that was restored as a 123GT..."

Footwells rusted through partially hidden by undercoating, rust bubbles, etc.

Long-term storage and idleness can be very detrimental to a car's overall health.

For the time, money and effort TWO real 123GTs could have been sourced and restored.

Nice car - if bidders get buck fever it could go for $10,000+.

George Dill

From eBay...

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1968 Volvo Other 123GT
Volvo 1968 123GT Show Level Master Class Amazon 122 130 Restored Maryland
This is a 1968 Volvo 123GT which was restored to show condition 16 years ago. It was always kept in a warehouse since restored and was rarely driven. It is a 122 that was restored as a 123GT. the restoration cost approximately $50.000.00 in 1996 dollars. All parts were bought new where ever possible and a 123GT was used for the GT specific parts. The engine came out of that car, a B18B #4968 60 2985. It was trailed in a enclosed trailer when brought to shows and used by Volvo for promotional tours. It has only logged about 2000 miles since being restored. i have put on about 500 miles since I have owned it taking it to local car shows. It is currently running, licensed and on the road and kept in a garage. It is considered by many to be one of the best condition examples of the 123GT/ 122 in the US. All new head liner, rubbers, floor mats, restored speedometer, Volvo - Bendix AM radio, Rebuild M41 J type 4 speed transmission with overdrive, rebuilt SU carbs, No rust anywhere. Paint very good. Lots of clearcoat, very straight panels. A few fin holes from bugs on the hood and slight scratches on tops of fenders that can be buffed out. Small paint chip on bottom of the drivers door I took a picture of. Chrome- good. The front left and center section should be redone as the have bubbling on them that I took pics of. Everything works on the car. I have a MD title in my name. The car has a larger diameter nza Exhaust, Biltstein Shocks, IPD sway bars front and rear, IPD lowering springs. the wheels that are on the car are British "Two Gates"- 14" wheels. They have Michelin 185/75 R14 tires on them. the car also has a thermostatically controlled aux fan on it. it also has a rare rear defroster in the rear hat shelf. One seam needs to be sewn in the back of the passenger seat bottom. the antenna is in the trunk as there was never a hole drilled in the fender for it. the passenger side foglight is not working. the trunk does not stay up when opened but there is a prop rod to hold it up. The car has retractable modern seat belts installed. All aluminum on the car has been polished. the car was offered to Volvo in Gothenburg , Sweden, but they turned it down with the response- "The car is better than we could produce from the factory". I reserve the right to end the auction. I encourage inspections if you wish or you can send a mechanic or appriaser to assess the car. Sold as is. All sales final. $1000.00 down payment due within 24 hours. Payment due within 7 days of close of auction by cashier's check. Car to be picked up within 2 weeks of close of auction. The car is currently stored 10 miles south of my house in West River, Md and can be picked up there in it's garage. If you cannot follow the payment terms or pick up the car within two weeks or make arrangements to have it picked up and / or shipped, please do NOT bid on the car. If you have o or negative feedback, please contact me before bidding. Zero feedback bidders who do NOT, will have their bids removed at my discretion.If the deposit is not paid and arrangements are not made to pay for and pick up the car within the rules outlined in this auction, a non paying bidder report will be filed with Ebay at 4 days from auction end. Thanks!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q233/jet646/DSCN0101-1.jpg
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Still looks good, and I bet this is going to be a very fun car to drive. If it has the 4.56 rear like the 123 GT had, it will be fairly quick too. Is it worth the current bid of $7K? I wouldn't pay that much for an Amazon for my own use, I would be too hard on it!
 

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footwells NOT rusted through. The car has been driven and started on a weekly basis for the past year with no issues. Prior to that, it was periodically started and driven. Perhaps you should try sourcing a 123GT in good shape. i am sure they grow on trees with no rust in Texas and can be had for 3-5k Right?
 

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Even without the rare GT items, that car is worth every penny of $10k and should go for more, although I've never seen a restored 122 go over $15k. I saw an all original unrestored genuine GT in nearly that good condition go for something like $23k a few years ago. Unfortunately these cars cost more to restore than to buy. I'll probably have $15k in mine before I even get to bodywork, and that's with me doing most of the work myself.

I assume you're the owner mparramore? Is the reserve closer to the restoration cost or is it more in line with market value?
 

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Up to $20k now, impressive. (and still not hitting reserve).
 

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Up to $20k now, impressive. (and still not hitting reserve).
Makes me wonder what they are trying to get out of it.. I am glad so see that it is hitting up over 20k and climbing in the OEM form, it is giving me a bit more hope for what a top dollar could be on some of these cars. I know there arent that many nice examples that come up that often, and that does affect the overall market value.. I have seen car clubs advertise their cars for unbelievable money or high reserves, with no intent to sell them, in order to make the overall perception of the value/interest increasing.

This sort of thing works, and is done way more than people may realize, whether it be from increased media/movie exposure or groups doing their thing. I have suggested in the past for the Classic Volvo owners to get together and list some of their nicer examples of cars, and then everyone bid up each others cars. That would artificially inflate the overall perception of value to the public, and get some more people interested in investing in them, which would cause some of the increased value perception to stick.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
I think the main reason that this car is going so high is the 123GT element, which would obviously appeal only to the original or near OEM form. The "123" means something only to those who know these cars well, and I think few of these people would care for a non OEM form 123 GT.

But the only/main factor on the current value of the classic cars is how they were perceived when they were new. And the average public in the 60's was even worse than it is now (which may explain in part why so many cars were so sub-standard back then). The main attraction that made a car sell was 1/4 mile times and styling, i.e., image of performance as opposed to driving experience. The Amazon was seen as a conservative car, and it appealed to the person that wanted a small (by US standards) car of high quality, and rather expensive for its size (all the domestic small cars of the time were basically junk). But the styling of the car, even though we like it now, was not fashionable then (a brand new 66 Amazon looked like a 15 year old car). So, even though the cars sold reasonably well by European production standards, they were largely unknown back then (I think Mustang sold 500,000 cars in 65, about the total production of the Amazon sold globally for 14 years).

So, given all that, the popularity and demand of these cars is doomed to stay low. Which is frankly not too bad, as we can get a high quality good looking, economical, reliable and safe car that handles and performs well for not all that much money. And its healthy to see the rare versions like the 123GT (or even a clone 123GT) to reach high prices.
 

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I think the main reason that this car is going so high is the 123GT element, which would obviously appeal only to the original or near OEM form. The "123" means something only to those who know these cars well, and I think few of these people would care for a non OEM form 123 GT.

From what I understand, this is not a real car, but a Clone built in the 123GT theme? That is sort of like building a RS or SS Camaro out of a base 6cyl car, and it does increase the value, but it will never be the Real Deal. This exact car is a Non OEM 123 GT, so I think you are splitting hairs there, because in most of the real classic automotive world, that instantly affect the overall resale value.

But the only/main factor on the current value of the classic cars is how they were perceived when they were new. And the average public in the 60's was even worse than it is now (which may explain in part why so many cars were so sub-standard back then). The main attraction that made a car sell was 1/4 mile times and styling, i.e., image of performance as opposed to driving experience. The Amazon was seen as a conservative car, and it appealed to the person that wanted a small (by US standards) car of high quality, and rather expensive for its size (all the domestic small cars of the time were basically junk). But the styling of the car, even though we like it now, was not fashionable then (a brand new 66 Amazon looked like a 15 year old car). So, even though the cars sold reasonably well by European production standards, they were largely unknown back then (I think Mustang sold 500,000 cars in 65, about the total production of the Amazon for 14 years).

Perception of the car does have a bit of influence on price, and that is what I have been arguing about from the beginning.. It was the lack luster performance that kept these cars down, because if they had performed to the standards that were measure back then, these cars would be worth considerably more.. But, and this is a Big But. If people can make something of these cars now, public image will change, which will drive the value up. So many cars have become Iconic, just because of Exposure and a new look, and you cannot argue that fact.. It isnt all about what they were, there is alot that has to do with, what can be done with them.

So, given all that, the popularity and demand of these cars is doomed to stay low. Which is frankly not too bad, as we can get a high quality good looking, economical, reliable and safe car that handles and performs well for not all that much money. And its healthy to see the rare versions like the 123GT (or even a clone 123GT) to reach high prices.
It is that attitude that is keeping these cars down, and that is all there is to it. There is no reason for these cars to remain low, and that is why there needs to be some new life and exposure brought to them. Dimitri, I am sure you are noticing more and more of these Classic Volvo's having High End Custom builds being done, and if it all works out right, there will be new blood inspired to do something with these cars, and then inflated values will arise. I know you dont want that, for what ever economic reasons you say you appreciate their depressed value, but that isnt healthy for the car overall.

We have had this discussion on several levels before, and by some of the higher end builds that have been done and what builds are going on now, I think the increased value is inevitible. Just better be ready to pay double or triple the current prices for a standard condition car, because it is already being noticed in the P1800's over the last year.

Personally I am very happy that this example of a Clone is doing so well, because that is now another new price level that is being made precedent, and there are some new people noticing something. It is very depressing to see a nice build, with considerable time, effort, money, and dedication, to be penalized by a lackluster resale value, and that is the catalyst that keep most people from coming on board with classic Volvo restoration.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
If the Amazon was designed around the US vision of a desirable car (1.e. drag racing, flashy styling changing every year), it would not have been what it is. I think the market is full of Mustangs and Camaros and the likes.

Just about the only thing that helps the cars is historic racing, and that has worked well in Europe and other places. Unfortunately, that form of racing is not as popular here. The type of driving that these cars excel in (road racing in tight winding roads) is not so popular here. The majority of car enthusiasts still want to see tire burning gas guzzlers, which is not consistent with the Amazon.
 

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If the Amazon was designed around the US vision of a desirable car (1.e. drag racing, flashy styling changing every year), it would not have been what it is. I think the market is full of Mustangs and Camaros and the likes.

I also think the market is full of Mustang and Camaro's, so we agree there.

Just about the only thing that helps the cars is historic racing, and that has worked well in Europe and other places. Unfortunately, that form of racing is not as popular here. The type of driving that these cars excel in (road racing in tight winding roads) is not so popular here. The majority of car enthusiasts still want to see tire burning gas guzzlers, which is not consistent with the Amazon.
I am sorry Dimitri, but the historic racing hasnt had the greatest results when it comes to value or support, and that is supported by the pricing.. I understand where thid has been true for other models of cars, like the Jag, Alfa Romeo, ect, but the Amazon/P1800 got the short end of the stick with benefiting. All I can say is just wait, and you better start buying up all you can in the near future, because the depressed market is going to start changing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It is probably impossible to prove the effects of the historic racing (and also the rally success in the 60's) since you cannot prove what it would have been without it, and cannot isolate its effects.

A simple comparison of the Amazon values compared to Jaguars and Alfas is comparing apples and oranges. The Jags were much lower production, and a much higher price range car when new, with higher displacement and higher sophistication, (DOHC Hemi engines, rear independent suspension, rear disks etc etc -incidentally the brake calipers are shared between Amazons and certain Jags-). The Alfa comparison is again pointless, since you only refer to the sporty alfas which are also very rare now because few survived the hard driving (the alfa 4 door family sedans do not have any better values than the Amazons). Also, most of the Amazons in Europe were the 121 version, which does not help with sporty image, even though their reputation for quality is far better known in Europe. But comparing, say an Alfa GTV with a 121 Amazon in price, and concluding from this that Amazon has not been helped by rally success seems a very stretched argument to me.

Just about every historic rally you see in Europe, almost always an Amazon or 544 will be in there, and very often win their class or outside of their class. If there were such races here, where the typical camaromustangs is totally uncompetitive, the public would have known more about their capabilities and their objective value.

But may be we should all follow your advice and start loading up credit cards and stocking up in Amazons! ;) It will be the investment of the future!
 

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The seller has revised the following item information:

Date Time Revised Information

Nov-25-12 16:35:52 PST Description

Nov-25-12 16:41:02 PST Description

Nov-28-12 12:24:24 PST Description

Nov-29-12 16:26:50 PST See Description - Reserve Price
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George Dill
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Interesting, on the value discussion, I was watching the video that another member published:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oKtzrOO7a4

Around minute 8:30, the fellow says that "originality" is what adds values to these cars. May be that applies more to the P1800's, and may be it applies more in Europe where people know about these cars. But it sure seems to be sending a signal to be careful before you start using that grinder and the torch in an effort to "improve" the car ... Even for a clone like this 123 GT. Even for rust buckets, the effort to make all these "improvements" may be more than to bring the car close to OEM specs.
 

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Dimitri.. Originality does play into values on some levels, but that really depends on historic or top of the line options in various models of cars, but with out a thought people instinctly cry originality the need for originality all the time.. There are examples of American and European cars that bring more money original, but again, they are note worthy or historic cars. Nicely done custom cars tend to bring Increased Value over the original counterpart, and there is a whole industry dedicated to just this fact.. The aftermarket industry is way larger than the OEM restoration industry as a whole, because people are constantly upgrading and modifying their cars, whether they be old or new.

From what I gather from watchig that video, Originality is best for the price point they were trying to reach on Resale, because half way between either OEM or Modified tends to not gain any additional value, or could actually hurt the over all value. As I have said before, I have built plenty of OEM builds, because it was more Profitable based on a Effort/Time/Investment ratio.. Meaning I can build a OEM Freshed Up in far less time, and flip it for a quick profit, with minimal investment in time and money, so if you figure the time/profit ratio, it made more sense. I have also done plenty of cars on the other end of the spectrum, and there is a generally a much larger profit on the right cars, because the Time/Profit ratio fits the price points and demand. It is really about just assessing the project to find the optimal build direction, that factors in time, profit, and demand.

There are of course other factors involved in determining build direction versus profit, and this has to do with how much sublet you have to do, because if you are handing off profit to your sublet needs, then that is profit/labor you could have had on your end.. Whether you pay some one to do the job, or you do the labor yourself, there is a measurable worth/profit invested in every part of each build task. So when you hand it off sublet parts of your build, that is lost labor/profit on your end, which can be applied to personal equity and profit.. For instance, I have a decent builder Triumph TR4 that can be put together relatively cheap, with about an easy 8,000 dollar profit margin for just a couple of weeks of fiddling with it off and on, but I sold the car as it is, because the particual sublet needs situation of this car will eat to much of my potential profit at this point, due to scheduling needs for the sublet body work. Time is money, and that has to be considered before you take on a project for profit.. If it takes you a year to build a car, to maybe gain a few thousand profit, then it wasnt that profitable.. Divide the profit by 52 weeks of a year, and you will see the gain, atleast that is how I do it..

For the hobby builders, it tends to get a bit tricky, because you can invest a vast amount of money over time with out really feeling it, so it is easy to get lost in investment. Most hobby builders tend not to be jack of all trades, so they have to pay people to do parts of their builds, and the people doing those parts are in it for profit, so that is lost equity in the car.. Any work you can do yourself, is like getting paid a wage to do so, and that is a personal equity gain in your build.
 

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Complete piece of Junk. per comments of American from Texas. Will per parted out and turned into planter... I am sure he looked and the car and can verify these statements. Looks like GG is the guy to go to for cheap REAL 123GT's " "Footwells rusted through partially hidden by undercoating, rust bubbles, etc.

Long-term storage and idleness can be very detrimental to a car's overall health.

For the time, money and effort TWO real 123GTs could have been sourced and restored."



George Dill
 

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Complete piece of Junk. per comments of American from Texas. Will per parted out and turned into planter... I am sure he looked and the car and can verify these statements. Looks like GG is the guy to go to for cheap REAL 123GT's " "Footwells rusted through partially hidden by undercoating, rust bubbles, etc.

Long-term storage and idleness can be very detrimental to a car's overall health.

For the time, money and effort TWO real 123GTs could have been sourced and restored."



George Dill
Really? I guess if reserve is met, there will be some very disappointed new owners..
 

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Depends on what and who you believe I guess. Perhaps one should inspect said car before opening one's mouth..

Oh.. I guess you are the owner trying to quote a statement from George.. You might want to be clear on that, because first glance makes it appear that you are backing up the statements..
 
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