[VolvoGoteborg]

Which SEA? there are 5 of them

SEA1 large vehicules wheelbase > 2, 900 mm as the Zeekr 001 with a 800-volt architecture
SEA2 Wheelbase from 2,650 mm to 2,900 mm Next Smart SUV, certainly next XC20
SEA-S (as sport) some info may be presented by Lotus at goodwood this summer
SEA-C (as commercial) which will underpin vehicles between 3.5 and 5.5 tonnes, including buses with a capacity of up to 12 passengers and pick-up trucks.
SEA-E (as entry) base vehicules.

Very interesting.

Lotus' recent PR and new about their future has made a lot of them "having their own platform for future products". But it seems this is a bit of spin since it's actually SEA underpinning them. Seems the CMA and SPA based SUVs have been cancelled plus the last ICE Lotus (to be unveiled as the Emira in July) has adopted the existing Toyoto-Lotus V6 with a Merc 4 cylinder for the entry level model rather than Volvo VEA engines as planned. That's very disappointing. Plus Lotus also cancelled the 450bhp VEA engine + 150 bhp motor powertrain as well to go only EV for all future products - except the Emira.

I would have expected LEVC to switch to SEA-C for their next generation of products after the TX taxi and VN van. The details above of 3.5-5.5 tonnes and buses with up to 12 passengers doesn't seem to capture these 2-3 tonne products. But... SEA looks quite adaptable to a wide range of vehicles so maybe it will be used by LEVC for these smaller products too. The 3.5 tonne and above would likely be Farizon / Geely Commercial Vehicles products but there's probably some overalap with LEVC there too. Pick up trucks is an interesting addition to the SEA-C list there too...

LEVC originally planned, it seems, the TX, VN5, minibus and pick up truck plus there was a 3.5 tonne product in development too. Maybe there still is or maybe these were canned for later SEA based products.

Interestingly SEA is "range extender capable" which aligns with LEVC's current range extender TX and VN5 products (use Volvo's 3 cylinder engine). So that's an interesting capability to have, maybe seeing ICEs continue for a bit longer in this platform.

SPA-2 for next gen S60/V70, S90 and V90 as well? Or will these switch to SEA as well and only be EVs?

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Based on JJK's reply above which copied a post from Volvo's CTO, Henrik Green's LinkIn article/s (1.0 (linkedin.com) it also has this comment at the end...

"Or in plain English - the cars on the architecture formerly known as SPA2 will be pure electric only, and instead of being "2" of "SPA", they are now "1.0" of our future"

So no ICE, MHEV or PHEV for any of the SPA-2 products then?

So they've now canned any ICE in anything from 2022 (starting with the XC90) and it's just EV?

Well, that's one way to meet "50% of sales by 2025 will be EV".... but not making anything else?

Personally I think this strategy is absolute madness.

Bloody hell.

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Second generation SPA is SPA-2 and that’s for everything from MY2022 starting with the new XC90. Polestar 3 also seems to be SPA-2 as well.

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

I think that either Henrik Green’s comments are a little out of context and he didn’t mean what they seem to say ie SPA-2 is EV only and no more ICE for any vehicle launched after 2022 or there will be a clarification and indeed SPA-2 will continue as info above from Medels and each vehicle bodyshell is made with one of two floors: one for ICE/PHEV/MHEV and a flat one for the EV versions

I don’t see it happening that Volvo would continue launching an XC90 on SPA-2 whilst keeping going the SPA XC90 to offer ICE versions. Same for every other X60 or X90 series car from 2022.

Canning ICE in any product from 2022 would be very bold and isn’t something I’d want to see.

But given their conviction that EV is the future maybe this is what’s about to happen.

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

I'm not sure Volvo did cancel the gen 2 XC90 but rather Volvo realised late in the programme than an EUCD platform based XC90 wasn't going to cut it when they needed a plug in hybrid version within the petrol and diesel range too. So they kept the P2 platform XC90 going longer instead whilst the new XC90 then waited for and moved onto the SPA platform.

Whilst e.g. Auto Motor & Sport got aspects of this news and then published a front page "Volvo XC90 cancelled", this then spread like wildfire in the automotive press. Unusually, Volvo got a correction published and then issued their own press release confirming the XC90 was in fact in development.

REPORT: Volvo XC90 replacement cancelled | Autoblog

Second Generation Volvo XC90 Canceled (motor1.com)

(See update at the end of the Motor 1 article)

The big facelift never happened either. A standard facelift half way thru the cycle and then the 2012 changes were minor changes to the rear lights (to mimic the 'follow the car's curves' LED rear lights of the V60)

Volvo XC90 gets a facelift for 2012 - just (carsuk.net)

Given the key difference between SPA and SPA-2 is the computing power and electrical system allowing Lidar and autonomous modes etc, I can't see SPA products continuing alongside SPA-2. If Volvo wants to offer ICE alongside EV then SPA-2 offers this already via the two different vehicle floor options, one for ICE and one for EV. Both versions get the same and latest electrical system etc.

Also, continuing ICE in SPA would still need them to meet e.g. Euro 7 emission standards in due course. Seeing that the engine is tested in-vehicle that's then testing them in SPA cars instead of SPA-2. So I can't see it happening.

If ICE is staying on SPA-2 then great. Henrik's comments imply they've had a moment and chucked out ICE from MY2022 model launches and will be EV only.

It's bold but I fear it's a little unthought through and maybe an overly Sweden-centric way of thinking. EV charging infrastructure is woefully behind in the apparently leading UK so if Volvo go EV too quickly they'll end up losing sales to those for whom an EV doesn't work yet e.g. me.

Only once prices come down, battery durability goes up and either range increase or the roll out of extensive rapid (50kW or more) chargers (i.e. matching or getting close to the 10-15 mins to refuel an ICE car) would widespread EV roll out work.

At the moment EVs are too much "work for some but not all" to make the EV-only shift at this stage.

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

From the accounts I've heard the current gen 2 (as you say really gen 3) XC90 is the gen 2. Reading the Volvo book "the 90 series story" shows that the Concept Coupe, Concept Estate and S/V90 were done in parallel and after the XC90 was finished (but before it was launched in 2014) However, this timeline and the cars shared front end indicates the SPA XC90 received a modified front end grill and lights to match the S90 and V90 "face" which followed.

Indeed interesting to see what the gen 2 looked like....

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Volvo's South Carolina factory will exclusively build electric cars

The firm's US factory just opened three years ago, but it's already set to pivot to EVs.

www.cnet.com

..

Hmmm... so if SPA-2 ICE cars are to come then at first the XC90 Electric will be made in the US only and exported.

Doesn't tally with "build them where you sell them"

Volvo was (pre-Trump and China tariff spat) moving towards a certain model being made in one location and exported globally i.e. the S90 was only made in China and exported globally. S60 only made in the US for example. That's not "build them where you sell them"

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

I agree that whilst the destination might be EVs across the board, the charging infrastructure is too woeful at the moment for EVs to be the only option at the moment.

I think the SPA-2 strategy is sound i.e. ICE and EV during this transition period. To have only EVs in each new product from MY2022 would be too early and way to risky. EVs are currently 1% of Volvos sales.

The C40 however is the first car that is only EV.

On another note, CMA has delivered all the Lynk & Co cars but with no S40 (the Concept 40.2 became Polestar 2, 40.1 the XC40) this platform has only delivered two cars for Volvo. I doubt any more are planned. I was expecting S40, V40 (hatchback), XC40, C40 (as coupe SUV as is the trend).

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Yeah, and obviously my opinion is influenced by the fact, that I'm rooting for BEV cars (and hoping the XC90 or Polestar 3 is good enough that I can switch to either of those).

That being said, if we consider that the current direction in the car industry is pretty clear, towards BEVs (and sure, there are some makers doing stuff with hydrogen also). Take VAG, they have their own BEV platform which they'll use for their electric vehicles. Now, does it make sense that Volvo, who has also said that they'll pivot to BEVs, will make a "shared platform" (i.e., compromised in both ways) for 5 years and risk it, that the cars will be inferior to the competition?

The direction may be towards BEV but charging infrastructure, in my opinion, is too under developed for it to be the time now to switch and not offer customers a choice. With the flat floor for EVs with SPA-2, Volvo has (and in their own words) allowed flat and spacious interiors vs the ICE and PHEV versions.

Personally I also don't understand why people are so enthusiastic about EVs. I think there's some delusion that they are simpler. They aren't. Batteries are complex to make and need sophisticated management systems (unlike the battery in a phone or laptop). EVs are only simple in the same way a laptop is simple as it's "only 3 parts. Screen, motherboard and keyboard"....

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Having dedicated EV platforms is also very expensive and carries risk if the vehicles don't sell. VW's ID3 competes with the Golf whereas a better move would have been an EV version of the Golf, lower investment risk for the OEM. VW Group has also invested heavily in lithium and now a battery supplier too. So now they are trying to force the situation, lobby the German Gov to bring in stricter emissions standards earlier etc, in order to see an earlier return on their investment

Volvo's CMA, SPA capability to do petrol, diesel, MHEV, PHEV and EV is a much better approach that a standalone EV architecture. The latter is much more expensive to do as you end up with two platforms in production in parallel rather than one shared by more products

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

I agree with the risk of alienating customers and the move to EV only too fast and from 2022 will damage sales volumes and revenue at a time that it is so needed to invest in and develop new technology i.e. EV and autonomous kit. Year on year Volvo volume and revenue is growing. Now would be a VERY bad time to slow or reverse that trend. As above, running ICE and EV in parallel on SPA-2 (and CMA for XC40) is the way to go. Volvo wants to be 100% EV by 2030. Whether the global market and demand makes that happen is another questions. Offering ICE and EV of all products (XC/S/V90, XC/S/V60, XC40) is the way to hedge your bets.

ICE will need to meet Euro 7 in 2025 (date not confirmed) for example. Maybe we'll see a transition from VEA to the new Geely-Daimler-Volvo ICEs as well within the SPA-2 era. Prob from 2026 ish.

By time of launch and assuming a 7 year product cycle I make it:

Model / SPA / SPA-2 / New platform/SPA-3 etc

XC90 / 2014 / 2022 / 2029
S90 / 2016 / 2023 / 2030
V90 / 2017 / 2024 / 2031
XC60 / 2018 / 2025 / 2032
V60 / 2018 / 2025 / 2032
S60 / 2019 / 2026 / 2033
XC40 / 2018 / 2025 / 2032

Haken Samuelsson talks of only having one saloon and one estate given the volume and demand for SUVs.

So a middle sized V80 / S80 for example to replace the 60 and 90 model for example

Add a C60 coupe SUV as well

The timeline above to me says SPA-2 could ramp down on ICE versions in favour of EV earlier than the model's End Of Production date and if sales volumes shows this trend due Gov incentives, charging infrastructure, battery cost, range and vehicle costs all making it possible.

The next next XC90 for example is the EV only car from 2029.

EV only from 2022-2026 for SPA-2 is too early.

Audi plan to launch their last NEW car with an ICE in 2026 but make ICE products until 2033.

Jaguar (Land Rover) is planning to launch EV only range from 2026 but they are also undergoing a comprehensive restructuring with the WHOLE product plan now in the bin and no new cars until 2026. Everything is cancelled except the new Range Rover. Jaguar is also planning having their cheapest car at $140,000 and culling volume too. Another discussion on if this will work

But again, Volvo has EVs of every SPA-2 too to cater to that market whilst not killing off ICE and customers who don't want EV too soon. As above, keep volumes and revenue up during the heavy investment period in future EVs

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

If the twin floor SPA-2 was already designed then how would cancelling the ICE version have any impact of the sort of optimisation possible for the EV version. This late in the game what significant changes or optimisation could be made that would improve the EV in a body structure that doesn't need to consider the ICE version which varies only by the different floor structure anyway?

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

If SPA-2 ICE is cancelled then why would it be revealed through a blog post of the CTO on LinkedIn? Bit of a balls up given that the much hyped Tech Day is supposed to be the big news reveal, not LinkedIn.

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

I wonder if the platform previously known as SPA2 now has to be re-engineered to optimize for EV only, vs dual-purpose? Could that now cause a delay on those EV vehicles, in exchange for optimized EV vehicles? Was this a hint of delay:

"I know when I write about our plans and purpose on a million-mile perspective, some people struggle to relate it to the daily fight making the next release happen on time."

Could it be that SPA2 itself is effectively canceled, like XC90 P3 was canceled, due to highly compromised product? So we'll really see SPA3 instead, fully optimized for EV, maybe 1-2 years later?

I think Henrik's point is more how his statements are sometimes far off plans or dreams or strategies or buzzwords whereas most other people are under pressure delivering the next product or aspect of it and don't really have time for / see the point / can't engage with these grandiose plans

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Interestingly Henrik's blog post of 1.0 has now been edited and no longer has this section....

"I wrote recently about a new accelerated plan. A plan to move faster, with no compromise into a new generation of pure electric cars, made for no other purpose. A plan that instead of crowning an era of SPA, with a second and last generation of cars – “SPA2” – will mark the beginning of a new era. Pure electric only, always with core compute, always connected, that will evolve and improve with every new car and every new factory installation, never again standing still. The phantom is dead, long live the phantom. Or in plain English – the cars on the architecture formerly known as SPA2 will be pure electric only, and instead of being “2” of “SPA”, they are now “1.0” of our future. No compromise! "

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

But still, it is the only way to go if you are dedicated to BEVs, which are the future. Pure EV platforms have some advantages, and if you go for a combined ICU/EV platform, you will only miss out on these advantages. Personally, I wonder how the car portfolios are going to develop in general. It seems obvious that most manufacturers will introduce new product lines while continuing their traditional products in a run-off mode. This is especially delicate for the old-established grand brands with their pedigree products they have been developping over decades. S-Class, Golf, 5er and so on: Suddenly they are becoming dusted cars, not only in the overall car market, but within their own brand. I think that Volvo has an advantage there because they never backed on their model names too hard. A German manufacturer would never have given up the V70 moniker for example, but that did Volvo no harm. Therefore, Volvo can easily have a BEV C60 next to the ICU/PHEV XC60 without needing to answer if the C60 replaces the XC60 or not. They are much more flexible, which comes in handy now.

These brands should have been shrewder by talking their long running model series e.g. S-Class, Golf etc and made EV versions of them alongside ICE. The brand and the brand of the model itself offers new powertrains. Product position remains. Volvo said this years ago. "Why make standalone EVs? We will offer EV versions of our products that we know customers already love. Choose Volvo, choose your model then choose your powertrain"

The ID3 is so close to being the Golf VW shot themselves in the foot but not taking the Golf name forward again for a new product. Now it's ID3 instead... losing all that brand of "Golf". Same applies to other OEMs too.....

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

So where will these engines go....

Highly efficient powertrain system specified for hybrid applications | Daimler

"Both groups will use global R&D networks to work together on a next-generation gasoline engine specified for hybrid applications to be produced at the companies' powertrain facilities in Europe and China, which could be utilized by Mercedes-Benz AG together with its established partners in China as well as the wider Geely Holding Group portfolio of brands including Volvo Cars."

"We are looking forward to the future; when, together with Volvo's ICE unit and Geely, we will further extend our synergies in the field of highly efficient drivetrain systems in China and the world."

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Worth remembering a lot of these generic illustrations in press releases are just that. Just general Volvo-ish shape. Rather than a new model

Volvo isn't set to reveal the new XC90 until 2022.

I personally feel the image above and in video in that press release looks a bit ungainly in the same awkward way the first Porsche Cayenne and VW Toureg looked wrong. The original Q7 had the ratios of an estate car just enlarged in all dimensions then sat on large SUV wheels. Worked better be a bit of behemoth.

Volvo has said that the next gen of SUVs needs to be more aerodynamic especially since every little helps with EVs such crappy range. Naturally the SUV flat high front doesn't fit with this. Matching aerodynamic and drag requirements with a good looking car is indeed quite the challenge. I hope Volvo can do it well.

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

Sounds good to me!
Cant it be project code V616 (XC100) that has been mentionned some years ago
V536 (XC90) may still come as ICE and BEV

From the presentation today it seemed quite direct that all cars launched from 2022 will be EV only

I don't agree with the strategy but the battery presentation guys seems quite direct on this point.

With the SPA S60 running till 2026, it will be the last product to go EV. Albeit there's a bit of a flux over only have one sedan and one estate for the SPA-2 products

 

[VolvoGoteborg]

That's a good point that Volvo talks of a flagship but I think that's the XC100 which launches before the new XC90 in 2022.

Closing remarks Hakan Samuelsson says the new flagship will get a name instead of letters and numbers.

Only Volvo I'm aware of with a name with Amazon / 120 and even that name was only used in Sweden.

I hope they stick with the alphanumeric system rather than names for cars going forward