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LTA's MT R vs. Zigger's GT R, and the winner is...

The stakes were high at the local closed road drag strip, pink slips were on the line! ...Actually, in Ontario they are green <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Zigger and I met up last night for some g<I>R</I>eat fun. You might have called it a mini-GTG!<p>Our cars: (significant differences in <B>BOLD</B>)<p>His car: Sonic Blue/Nordcap MY06 S60R <B>GT</B>, EST cat-back, BMC filter, <B>BSR/PPC</B>, lowering srpings, 18" Pegs w/OEM P-Zero 35psi?, ?? tank of Sunoco 94 gas (to be confirmed), chassis ADVANCED mode<p>My car: Sapphire Black/Atacma MY06 S60R <B>MT</B>, EST cat-back, BMC filter, <B>Ferrita 3" DP</B>, Aquamist, 18" Pegs with PS2's 39psi, 1/4 tank of Sunoco 94 gas, chassis ADVANCED mode<p>Temperature was not too hot last night at about 20C/68F for our rolling starts and 16C/60F when I did my G-timer runs.<p>Generally speaking we're compairing my MT with 3" DP to his GT with BSR/PPC ECU tune. We know that stock-for-stock the MT is faster than than the GT. We <I>think</I> the ~30hp gain of the BSR tune in Zigger's R versus the (controversial) ~15hp gains from my 3" DP make our cars nearly even. 0-60 I believe my MT has the edge and possibly for 1/4mile as well (that's IF I manage a GREAT launch which is NOT easy to do repeatedly). However, with rolling starts and highway speeds we believe Zigger's setup is faster than mine.<p>Further to the above and before getting into the nittgy-gritty of the G-timer numbers we found our cars to be pretty darn close from a rolling start in 2nd gear from around 40Km/h (25mph) to 120km/h (75mph). If I hit it first I could usualy hold the slight lead, if Zigger hit it first it was hard for me to catch up although I seemed to start gaining back some ground near the top or 3rd gear. Don't get me wrong, in most cases we're pretty sure Zigger's GT R did better in the rolling starts.<p>We used my Beltronics FX/2 G-timer which I have yet to compare to and calibrate to a real 1/4 mile track. The G-timer's accuracy between our two cars might have been marginally affected by Zigger's stiffer springs. It's probably insignificant becuase according to the manual and my estimation of how much stiffer his car is, an incorrect G-Timer pitch setting will affect 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile times buy only ~0.05s (but 60ft times should be accurate).<p>I had the advantage or making 15 or 20 runs before logging some really good times earlier in the year, whereas it was Zigger's first time using a G-timer to test drag-strip runs. The pics below show my best time ever in BLUE (recorded in April with slightly cooler temps of 16C/61F) and Zigger's best runs in GREEN out of his 5 total runs.<p>Zigger's Run #9 (Green) was one of his two best 1/4 times (both were 14.33):<p><IMG SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/field172/G-Timer/RvsR_1.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>Zigger's Run #7 (Green) was a really good 0-60 but he slowed up before completing the 1/4 mile. If you were to continue the green curve I think he would have beat my time of 14.00 (the blue curve). You can see how he stated to pull ahead as I shifted from 3rd to 4th. I think that's were the BSR ECU tune really starts to come alive and kick some serious butt! <IMG SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/field172/G-Timer/RvsR_2.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>You can see the biggest difference in the 60ft times, that's where the GT suffers the most due to the torque limitting, sorry Zigger <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/frown.gif" BORDER="0"><p>Bottom line as I see it: Through 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears a GT R with BSR tune should beat an MT R with 3" DP more times than not since the MT driver will always have a harder time getting a good launch off the line. IF the MT driver is a real pro, and likes the smell of a burning clutch, he could get ahead of the GT and stay there until the top of 3rd gear. Or, the MT driver with Aquamist can wait for another hot day of 35C/95F and kick Zigger's @ss!<p>Zigger plans to do more runs with the FX/2 and get some practice. We'll log some times with BSR ECU and stock ECU, I'll post those graphs in a couple days.<p>LTA<p><br>
 

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Re: LTA's MT R vs. Zigger's GT R, and the winner is... (LTA)

great analysis! but I thought zigger's 06 doens't have torque limiter?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: LTA's MT R vs. Zigger's GT R, and the winner is... (stevectsai)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>stevectsai</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">great analysis! but I thought zigger's 06 doens't have torque limiter?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Most guys 'in the know' will tell you there's still some torque limitting there in MY06.<p><br>
 

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Hey man... awesome write up! But... I had 2 wicked runs tonight on the same course best 0-60 time was 5.48X and best 1/4 mile run was 13.9 @103 Mph I dunno why mayve cuz I was 1/4 tank tonight and last night full? Or that this time I turned off Dcc completly I had some crappy times to tho worst run on same road trying to use the Gt with diff shift points was 0-60 in 6.1 and 1/4 mile in 14.9 @97 that was the worst but at 1 point I hit 0-60 3 times in a row in 5.68 exactly and 1/4 mile in 14.1 twice and 14.3 once with a trap speed of 98+ mph (sucked) this was after like 20+ runs...thanks again for letting me use it. <br>Btw - The e46 m3 came out tonight...I left the info the same he has a cab so weight is almost the same he did 5 runs best run for him was 5.7 0-60 and 14.1 @98 mph in 1/4 mile he also has smg
 

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im actually kind of disappointed, zigger.<p>with a lot of people running close to 14.0sec 1/4 mile times STOCK, you ran two consecutive 14.33s WITH a BSR tune.<p>it appears the e46 had a really bad night too if he was only running a 14.1.<p>ouch.<br><IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (phuz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im actually kind of disappointed, zigger.<p>with a lot of people running close to 14.0sec 1/4 mile times STOCK, you ran two consecutive 14.33s WITH a BSR tune.<p>it appears the e46 had a really bad night too if he was only running a 14.1.<p>ouch.<br><IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthdown.gif" BORDER="0"></TD></TR></TABLE><p>It sounds as if ambient conditions were bad. What is your elevation? An E46 should be able to cut 13.6 with minimal ease if the driver knows how to use their launch control.<p>Good write up LTA! I can't wait to go back to the track myself. This time I will have over 400 ponies to bring to the show though. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (Rangeball)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Rangeball</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Good write up LTA! I can't wait to go back to the track myself. This time I will have over 400 ponies to bring to the show though. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>range, since you ran a 13.6 (or 13.5, i forget) STOCK, I am anxious to see how you do. what combination of goodies (beside nitrous <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif" BORDER="0">) are you going with to obtain your 400hp. and i assume you mean crank hp?
 

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Re: (phuz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>range, since you ran a 13.6 (or 13.5, i forget) STOCK, I am anxious to see how you do. what combination of goodies (beside nitrous <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif" BORDER="0">) are you going with to obtain your 400hp. and i assume you mean crank hp?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Yes crank. Today the down pipe, exhaust and pulley will be installed. This weekend I should be getting the Aquamist and NX kit installed (keeping my fingers crossed as it was supposed to be last weekend). ECU will be shipped off either next Monday or Tuesday. With the combination of ECU and dp/exhaust the car should be good for 360hp crank and with the combination of the 50 shot of nitrous the car could very well be producing 420-430hp. <p>I have been talking with Scott at IPD and with the 12:1 A/F ratio on the IPD tune I should be able to squeeze in a 50 dry (yes dry) shot. I will be taking the car to the dyno hopefully three weeks from now to see how much the car can handle on the dry shot. Since Boosted is the only one that has used nitrous and his was a wet shot I am venturing down uncharted territory which is scaring considering Mike just blew his engine. Which probably had nothing to do with the nitrous but still makes you think. <p>Either way I should hopefully have some good numbers to post in the near future. Further if the nitrous kit goes well and others would like to do a kit we might be able to talk with Marco at TME to create a slightly richer tune so that the nitrous should remain within the green. (hint, hint) <p>Oh yea, it was a 13.6 @103 with a 1.9 60'. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (Rangeball)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Rangeball</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Either way I should hopefully have some good numbers to post in the near future. Further if the nitrous kit goes well and others would like to do a kit we might be able to talk with Marco at TME to create a slightly richer tune so that the nitrous should remain within the green. (hint, hint) <p>Oh yea, it was a 13.6 @103 with a 1.9 60'. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> </TD></TR></TABLE><p>well congrats man. i am highly interested in the work you're doing because unlike some things i read around here, i actually trust your results. make sure you get plenty of dyno #s and track #s WITHOUT the Nitrous. I'm hoping you can tap a 13.0 without the NOS. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"> Best of Luck!
 

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Your right Phuz about dissapointing times that night. Again it was my 1st time trying to do someruns and I was trying different methods Like the Tip (which somtimes I hit the reline and it would hesitate) or sport with S button Vs adnavced. Anyways last night I figured out my optimal shift points and finally broke into the high 13's and trapped at over 102 mph. I dissagree tho about the M3 being able to easilly hit 13's and a trap speed of 105 . Those are the best times 1st of all that a m3 does secondly he will never do launch control(7 times and it voids your warranty) plus it's realy bad for the car. He has RWD so is tires would spin alot through 12t & 2cnd but from a roll I assure you his car will rip a stock R. Unfortunatly I also have a automatic ( I dunno why my wife made me arggg) which is why I ain't into the mid 13's and low low 5's. I can't launch this thing and I am still hitting mid 5's and pretty good 1/4 mile /trap speed times from a roll like LTA said my car is much faster
 

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Re: (zigger)

I still think that if someone could custom-build a high stall converter, a GT would out-perform an MT at the drag strip. <p>Say "adios" to trans warranty, though.
 

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Re: (zigger)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>zigger</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your right Phuz about dissapointing times that night. Again it was my 1st time trying to do someruns and I was trying different methods Like the Tip (which somtimes I hit the reline and it would hesitate) or sport with S button Vs adnavced. Anyways last night I figured out my optimal shift points and finally broke into the high 13's and trapped at over 102 mph. I dissagree tho about the M3 being able to easilly hit 13's and a trap speed of 105 . Those are the best times 1st of all that a m3 does secondly he will never do launch control(<B>7 times and it voids your warranty</B>) plus it's realy bad for the car. He has RWD so is tires would spin alot through 12t & 2cnd but from a roll I assure you his car will rip a stock R. Unfortunatly I also have a automatic ( I dunno why my wife made me arggg) which is why I ain't into the mid 13's and low low 5's. I can't launch this thing and I am still hitting mid 5's and pretty good 1/4 mile /trap speed times from a roll like LTA said my car is much faster</TD></TR></TABLE><p>7 times using the launch control and it voids your warranty? Sounds odd, I wonder why they would give it to you then? If that is true that sucks! It's like taste the fruit but you can't have it. <p>Either way sounds like fun. A day at the track is still better than a day at work! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/embeer.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (zigger)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>zigger</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...all that a m3 does secondly he will never do launch control(7 times and it voids your warranty)...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>who monitors this? i've never heard of it.
 

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Re: (phuz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>who monitors this? i've never heard of it.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I have, and although I've never done a lot of research, I believe it to be true. <p>BMW's in-car computers monitor and record EVERYTHING. They are either coming out with, or already have come out with, a system wherby your information is downloaded to your KEY, and it's read every time you bring the car in for service. And did you ever see the commercial where the guy is driving the 5 series singing "The Wheels on the Bus" and Bimmer calls him to tell him that the car said it needed service? <p>Back on topic, Zigger I think you should try full auto mode with the S engaged. I know that many car magazines report that they get better times on a tiptronic car with the car in auto than by shifting themselves.
 

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Re: (needsdecaf)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>needsdecaf</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Back on topic, Zigger I think you should try full auto mode with the S engaged. I know that many car magazines report that they get better times on a tiptronic car with the car in auto than by shifting themselves. </TD></TR></TABLE><br>yep i feel the same way when i'm driving mine. <br>especially after the mods.<br>in geartronic mode, in the first two gears when i push it close to redline and try to shift up, the car just hesitates for a moment and then shifts. now this may only be a fraction of a second or something like that but from 1st to 2nd and then from 2nd to 3rd i'm sure that it adds up to at least half a second or so. of course it's not a complete loss of say 0.5 seconds since i'm still moving but it does make me miss that sweet spot to shift up and sure feels like some loss in my boost & torque too.
 

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Your right. I only use the Tip when I am rolling than I can get into my sweet spot like 3rd gear 4 krpm and than just shift from a dead stop I found my runs were much stronger in D
 

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Re: (zigger)

So after a little practice the Ziggmeister lays down some better times. His 13.80 1/4mile should help get rid of that buyer's remourse he was surely feeling earlier in the week <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Relative to my runs with the FX/2 this is more of what I expected his GT with BSR/PPC to do:<p><IMG SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/field172/G-Timer/Zigger1.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>He'll have a couple better onces to post later in the week. I think he said a 5.33 0-60 and 13.7-something 1/4 mile. I'll post it when I get it...<p>LTA<br>
 

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Thanks buddy, Yeah I am pooped my wife thinks I am nutz now <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> . I am done for now yes my best run with very little gas S button engaged and in sport mode D (not tip) I hit 0-60 5.33 and 1/4 mile in 13.7 @ 105.6xx mph! <br>That was a awesome run and I knew it the car shifted so quicly in that run. It was faster in Sport mode than Advanced not by much Vs 13.8 but still quicker <br>I need to buy myself one of these.. Thank g-d I don't have a MT cuz by now I would need a new clutch..rofl.
 
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