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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am new to the forum and am finding it helpful. I am a few months into installing an LS3 and TKO600 into my 1972 P1800. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated. Hope to figure out how to post pictures soon. I am using Mad Volvo front and rear suspension and so far everything is going well.
 

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A 1972 1800 is an "E" or an "ES" .

the P designation ended when the assembly of the cars was moved from England to Sweden in 1963 and it became the 1800S.

Good luck with the project.
 

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Pictures. We do need pictures.

Strange how the resto-mod seems to dominate this forum.

I am doing a P1800ES on a Miata chassis with a ford 302.

Never heard of Mad Volvo suspension. Links to the product? Not Robert's stuff is it?

Pete
 

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Yes it's Swedish Op's stuff. They swear they are a solid company and are bailing him out of his hole so we'll see how it all shakes out.
 

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Yes it's Swedish Op's stuff. They swear they are a solid company and are bailing him out of his hole so we'll see how it all shakes out.
Would love to hear from some of the people that Robert burned to see if they are being bailed out of their hole. Did they also fix the geometry? From what I could tell in the videos that were shown, it subscribed to the "any suspension will work if you don't let it" school or design. ie Go carts do go around corners.

Me? I would not buy a bucket of water from the guy if I were on fire unless I were standing on the his loading dock looking at the stuff.

If the back orders are being filled, then I applaud the effort to rebuild the name. There was never a lack of fabrication talent in the shop. What was lacking was integrity.

Pete
 

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Did they also fix the geometry? Pete
That geometry cannot be fixed, the roll centers are way off. The fabrication is irrelevant if it does not have engineering in it. Wait a second, I forgot, many/all these cars are not really meant to be driven, its all about the fabrication experience.
 

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That geometry cannot be fixed, the roll centers are way off. The fabrication is irrelevant if it does not have engineering in it. Wait a second, I forgot, many/all these cars are not really meant to be driven, its all about the fabrication experience.
I am relatively new to the classic Volvo community so was unaware of the apparent negative history here of these parts. So I did a little googling. I see a lot of discussion about the roll centers but nothing about the delivery/funding issues.

In this thread, the designer appears to say that the photos are misleading and that the roll centers are inside, as they should be (although he never uses these terms, he just says the camber goes negative in bump). Is there more information somewhere, where someone other than the designer actually measured the suspension?

As of right now, I'm happy keeping my quite-original car stock, but I've been thinking a lot about what I would do if I were to restomod it and these parts have gotten my attention. Assuming they don't suck, they do appear to be the easy button for a restomod.
 

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I am relatively new to the classic Volvo community so was unaware of the apparent negative history here of these parts. So I did a little googling. I see a lot of discussion about the roll centers but nothing about the delivery/funding issues.

In this thread, the designer appears to say that the photos are misleading and that the roll centers are inside, as they should be (although he never uses these terms, he just says the camber goes negative in bump). Is there more information somewhere, where someone other than the designer actually measured the suspension?

As of right now, I'm happy keeping my quite-original car stock, but I've been thinking a lot about what I would do if I were to restomod it and these parts have gotten my attention. Assuming they don't suck, they do appear to be the easy button for a restomod.
The thread did not work for me. But roll center is not something that can be captured with pictures. A quick description s here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll_center
This determines how much the car will roll for a given roll stiffness Iam had substantial roll stiffness, yet his car rolled hugely. So, his roll centers were most likely far too low, possibly below the ground. You can see on the rear suspension, the springs were inboard the frame rails instead of the stock outboard, for example. There were other many flaws related to camber, apparently, which may also have been related to excess roll. All that is too much, that can only be corrected by scrapping and starting all over. The whole premise of the design was to allow the ridiculous huge engine to fit, so everything was moved out, without any engineering applied to it. Unless your only goal in this project is to cut and weld like others in the forum, with little interest on how the end result drives, you are better off to keep the car stock, which is a well refined engineered car from the factory. There are many well established ways that the car performance can be improved. If you need performance that 350 and 400 hp engines offer, you need to focus on a car designed from scratch for this level of power.
 

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The thread did not work for me. But roll center is not something that can be captured with pictures. A quick description s here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll_center
This determines how much the car will roll for a given roll stiffness Iam had substantial roll stiffness, yet his car rolled hugely. So, his roll centers were most likely far too low, possibly below the ground. You can see on the rear suspension, the springs were inboard the frame rails instead of the stock outboard, for example. There were other many flaws related to camber, apparently, which may also have been related to excess roll. All that is too much, that can only be corrected by scrapping and starting all over. The whole premise of the design was to allow the ridiculous huge engine to fit, so everything was moved out, without any engineering applied to it. Unless your only goal in this project is to cut and weld like others in the forum, with little interest on how the end result drives, you are better off to keep the car stock, which is a well refined engineered car from the factory. There are many well established ways that the car performance can be improved. If you need performance that 350 and 400 hp engines offer, you need to focus on a car designed from scratch for this level of power.
I know what the roll center is. I just don't really understand what the big concern about these parts are.

The stock suspension on these cars puts the front roll center below the ground, and has the instantaneous roll points outside the tires. It appears that there was a lot of bashing of this aftermarket part for, basically, doing the same thing ... but the designer swears that (without using the words) that it's not the case. I'm wondering if there's been any determination by another party.

Frankly, even if the Swedish Ops design has these flaws and therefore the geometry is as messed up as it was from the factory, it's not the end of the world. Lots of cars have survived just fine with these sorts of designs. Yes, no one is going to build a race car from scratch with these issues but most people are doing these sorts of mods to make the car faster and cooler and more fun to drive than it was originally, while retaining the personality of the original, and a suspension like this would certainly be adequate for those goals.
 

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I know what the roll center is. I just don't really understand what the big concern about these parts are.

The stock suspension on these cars puts the front roll center below the ground, and has the instantaneous roll points outside the tires. It appears that there was a lot of bashing of this aftermarket part for, basically, doing the same thing ... but the designer swears that (without using the words) that it's not the case. I'm wondering if there's been any determination by another party.

Frankly, even if the Swedish Ops design has these flaws and therefore the geometry is as messed up as it was from the factory, it's not the end of the world. Lots of cars have survived just fine with these sorts of designs. Yes, no one is going to build a race car from scratch with these issues but most people are doing these sorts of mods to make the car faster and cooler and more fun to drive than it was originally, while retaining the personality of the original, and a suspension like this would certainly be adequate for those goals.
We had neat picked all these details a while back. The car suffered from enormous understeer due to these problems that you do not see on the original, despite enormous roll stiffness and very stiff suspension. In fact, the original was a very competent design, as proven by its long race history, and can do a lot without spending a fortune in tires. It is a well balanced car designed by very clever and sophisticated engineers.

You can certainly get away with a lot of design flaws, example many US made cars in the 50's and 60's. Drive it slow enough and you will be OK. But why spend a bunch of time and money going backwards? Some people answer this by saying that it is the trip they are interested, not the destination. They like the cutting and welding and painting, and they like going to a car show, opening the hood, and having a bunch of people looking at their creation, while driving is second to them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Wow! I had not expected so much conversation about a car that I am building purely as a fun street car. I guess I'll have to quit calling it a P1800, so can I call it a 6200E???? Ignorance is bliss.
I'll post pics when I have time to figure it out.
 

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Can someone tell me why the single shear attachment to the steering arm is an acceptable design in this application? The distance between the steering arm and the rod end is a serious lever transferring the steering inputs to and from the steering arm through what I am guessing is a 7/16 bolt. I cant imagine it not flexing under load. For example, would you mount your shocks out on a single shear lever like that?

That said, I have no feel for what kind of loads the steering arms put into the rack so this might be acceptable practice in the automotive industry.


I do know it is for bump steer correction.

 

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Can someone tell me why the single shear attachment to the steering arm is an acceptable design in this application? The distance between the steering arm and the rod end is a serious lever transferring the steering inputs to and from the steering arm through what I am guessing is a 7/16 bolt. I cant imagine it not flexing under load. For example, would you mount your shocks out on a single shear lever like that?

That said, I have no feel for what kind of loads the steering arms put into the rack so this might be acceptable practice in the automotive industry.


I do know it is for bump steer correction.

Nohome, in this application, engineering is optional. In fact, it is unacceptable. Everything is about how it looks and of course, we need to give space to the gigantic (and idiotic) chevy engine. Response: machined out of a "strong" material. How strong? What are the fatigue loads? Why are we designing a critical part like this so long, with huge moment loads and stresses? It could be designed at one tenth the length. And even if there was a reason, did we make a stress calculation? Do we have a clue of what the loads are? What are the maximum stresses of this "very strong" material? Is it brittle? Can it handle shock loads? May be ignorance is indeed a bliss, and the correct answer to this. Until ...

This is, of course, one of the minor issues. Look at his prior videos, how the thing understeered in the curves, and the gigantic camber deflections. It is funny that Iam provided the evidence of his doom. It is amazing that after all the evidence, people are still cutting up good cars for this contraption. Just look at that last picture that Iam himself posted! May be you can get away with that crap on wide and flat parking lot. .....

We have spent way too much time on this.
 

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Dimitri I would not worry too much about my suspension setup at this time. I am working with on of the top suspension guys in the country. He is JJ Furillo and he has his own company Ultimate Performance as well as works part-time at JRI Shocks. He provids tech help and design for some of the best cars in the country. He is here to help me get the most out of my car I can. I used the information about tuning, spring rates and sway bar info from Robert to give me a starting point. I will make adjustments as I need to and in some cases becasue I want to get a little bit more out of it (shocks, springs...).

As far as the question about whey there is such a difference in the size of the spacer on the tie rod I don't know. I assume it is because I am using a different spacer on my rack that does not angle the input of the shaft down (angled spacer v/s straight). An angled spacer would likely pivot the rack up and create a smaller spacer. That is just speculation on my part though.

Trickey1 I am sorry about the diversion on your build thread. I will be watching with interest.
 

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Dimitri I would not worry too much about my suspension setup at this time. I am working with on of the top suspension guys in the country. He is JJ Furillo and he has his own company Ultimate Performance as well as works part-time at JRI Shocks. He provids tech help and design for some of the best cars in the country. He is here to help me get the most out of my car I can. I used the information about tuning, spring rates and sway bar info from Robert to give me a starting point. I will make adjustments as I need to and in some cases becasue I want to get a little bit more out of it (shocks, springs...).

As far as the question about whey there is such a difference in the size of the spacer on the tie rod I don't know. I assume it is because I am using a different spacer on my rack that does not angle the input of the shaft down (angled spacer v/s straight). An angled spacer would likely pivot the rack up and create a smaller spacer. That is just speculation on my part though.

Trickey1 I am sorry about the diversion on your build thread. I will be watching with interest.
68, seeing these horrible videos and pictures from Iam's car, it is you, not I, that should be really worried about the suspension. It is very likely too late for any professional suspension guys to be able to help you that late in the game, as the problems are fundamental design flaws in the basic geometry. But if these guys are working for you, you may ask them to map the whole thing and see if they can figure out where the roll centers are. Then, with a lot of luck, may be a relatively simple adjustment in control arm length or location could help, but that will require cutting, re-welding, and it looks its too late at this point. The spacer, even though a simple item to fix, is just an example of how this conversion completely lacked fundamental engineering foundation.
 

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Tricky1, I'm not going to get involved with the Iam BS again. I will offer this, I have a 71 1800E with a mildly built B-20 and Megasquirt Engine Management. She puts out about 120 RWHP, full urethane suspension, sway bars and bilstien shocks.
My car is a blast to drive, acceleration isn't what a 400 hp V8 (I know, I built 440 MOPAR's when I was in my 20's), would do but it doesn't need to be. It has run next to a Lambo at over 100mph across the desert from Baker to stateline outside of Vegas (about 90 miles at 3 am), without even a hic-up. I would doubt seriously if one of Iam's creations with his suspension would beat me by more then a half second at Laguna Seca raceway. He'd pull me up the main straight and up the hill toward the corkscrew but the rest of the track would likely be mine. I don't think his car would handle an off-camber corner with a change in direction (such as the corkscrew), as well as the stock set-up. Not to mention how much less money, time and work it takes to keep my car on the road (I've got over 15K on it since the rebuild 16 month ago with only oil changes and 1 valve adj at 12K). When you change something that radically you'll always end up having to mess with something.
Huffaker engineering has built an 1800 that equals the lap times of the Bondurant school FR500's at Laguna but, the re-engineering of the suspension and weight distribution of the car is worth about $15K. You can see photos of that car here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kertwerks/15108172473/in/dateposted-public/
It still has a B20 engine. Point is you don't need 400hp to be fast on a track. If you just want to shut down the EVO's and WRX's the local kids have, go for it but understand that wont make a fast track car and it will likely in the long run devalue a classic car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Everybody is totally missing the point. My goal is a very strong street driver with a beautiful body. The P1800 fills the bill in spades. It will probably will never see a road course but I am confident that it will be very comfortable and striking. I started the post to seek input from those who share a common goal and can help with advice or previous experience. I really hate it that Demetria and Robert have chosen to duke it out again here. Give them some brass knuckles and send them out back. Don't get me wrong, I have been to Roberts shop and also the Mad Volvo shop and there has been a lot of thought go into this. The craftsmanship is excellent. They both have very helpful. If anyone has input that would help in the direction I am headed I would be grateful.
 

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I really hate it that Demetria and Robert have chosen to duke it out again here. Give them some brass knuckles and send them out back. Don't get me wrong, I have been to Roberts shop and also the Mad Volvo shop and there has been a lot of thought go into this. The craftsmanship is excellent. They both have very helpful. If anyone has input that would help in the direction I am headed I would be grateful.
Sorry Trickey1 about trying to shut dimitri down once again because he starts the same argument on each obviously stated custom build, and I just wanted to remind him that he has a chance to prove otherwise, and kertwerks please pm me because it sounds like you might have the car that would work for the Optima Invite to educate everyone on capability so we can shut this discussion down once and for all..

Back to the build, and if you need help on how to post the pics, just let me know and I will help you out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks Robert. It is obvious who started it all. I'll be out for some travel for a couple of weeks so will get back to the picture thing after I get back.......
 

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Everybody is totally missing the point. My goal is a very strong street driver with a beautiful body. The P1800 fills the bill in spades. It will probably will never see a road course but I am confident that it will be very comfortable and striking. .....
Trickey. glad you have no illusions about handling and fast driving. As long as you drive it slow and straight, you will be OK. I cannot relate to why you would spend all that time and effort, since the original car would also be a strong runner, reliable (more so), and strong (but admittedly, not so striking to the ignorant public), but then again there are many other things I do not relate to.

Kert, sounds like an interesting car. This is what "swede speed" is supposed to mean. BTW, I do have 2 440s too, good for the straights! And I am not particularly impressed by that silly race from Optima battery, looked a bit too cheezy, and the road course too flat and wide for driving fun. The interstate is just as much fun, and it is free!
 
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