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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 2004 s60R GT. I recently purchased the IPD rear sway bar (neutral balance kit - rear bar only). My local volvo dealer is actually pretty cool - the service mgr owns an 04 s60r gt as well. As we got to talking about the bar install, and discussing the rear end hop, he indicated that there was a warranty bushing kit to fix, and that they could do the rear sway at the same time.<br>well, they had a lot of problems (NOT with the IPD part - the subframe bushing mount on one side was worn out - new subframe required) They got it all buttoned up, a 4 wheel alignment, and SUM calibration. Now here is the problem...<br>The car is downright scary to drive. The back end feels "floaty". the car feels disconnected in yaw. The initial turn-in response seems excessive. Once the car is in a corner, it takes a great set, and the understeer experienced previously is gone. Also, for example, when under hard acceleration in a straight line, if i back off the throttle abruptly, the car pulls to the right.<br>I have driven neutral/balanced cars before (but not R cars). I have been through the Bondurant school, so i would like to think i at least know a little bit about neutral vs. oversteer, etc. My question is - is this kind of response normal for the neutral kit, or is something else wrong from all of the other work done previously? Are these symptoms indicative of what is normal for the neutral bar? It almost feels like it is on the verge of oversteer (snap oversteer actually) at initial turn in at highway speeds.<br>Does this make sense? I welcome all thoughts and inputs, as i need to contact the dealer to see how to fix this.<br>Thanks in advance!
 

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Re: IPD rear sway and rear hop problem - please help - advice (rgrove)

Sound like a misalignment. thrust angle or toe, probably the last but with the subframe replaced the thrust angle could be off.<p>Also ask your dealer if they tightened the suspension while the car was on it's feet. If tightened hanging there will be to much tension in the bushings.<p>The neutral bar does give a bit more feel in the rear but nothing overreacting, more solving the heavy front end feel.
 

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Re: IPD rear sway and rear hop problem - please help - advice (rgrove)

I recently got TME springs, the rear bushing fix, and 22mm rear sway bar. <p>The back end was definitely more active at Nurburgring than last year. Not that it was bad, but the back end was much more responsive to throttle/brake inputs. <p>I also think my dealer tightened up the suspension while it was in the air, so there may be more tension in the bushings that normal.<p>I just need to get used to it, and learn not to hit the brakes in the middle of the turn because I took too much speed into the turn. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: IPD rear sway and rear hop problem - please help - advice (rgrove)

The bar was really designed to go with lowering springs.<br>You are probably the first to install the bar without springs.<br>That being said it sounds like you have a problem, perhaps with rear toe specs<br>It still should make the stock set up better, certainly not scary<br>If this car never had the SUM (chassis compuer) updated and still was running REV 2 (much stiffer) which is what most 04's came with and they did what they should caliibrate the SUM, REV #4 would have been installed which is a MUCH softer, looser set up. Not a whole lot you can do except learn how to drive it. I suspect this is what happened. Also please remember that you have a <B>FWD </B>biased AWD setup and you cannot change the laws of physics<br>Find out first if that's what they did and get back to me<br>(There is a way to go back but it's not easy)
 

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Re: IPD rear sway and rear hop problem - please help - advice (rgrove)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rgrove</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a 2004 s60R GT. I recently purchased the IPD rear sway bar (neutral balance kit - rear bar only). My local volvo dealer is actually pretty cool - the service mgr owns an 04 s60r gt as well. As we got to talking about the bar install, and discussing the rear end hop, he indicated that there was a warranty bushing kit to fix, and that they could do the rear sway at the same time.<br>well, they had a lot of problems (NOT with the IPD part - the subframe bushing mount on one side was worn out - new subframe required) They got it all buttoned up, a 4 wheel alignment, and SUM calibration. Now here is the problem...<br>The car is downright scary to drive. The back end feels "floaty". the car feels disconnected in yaw. The initial turn-in response seems excessive. Once the car is in a corner, it takes a great set, and the understeer experienced previously is gone. Also, for example, when under hard acceleration in a straight line, if i back off the throttle abruptly, the car pulls to the right.<br>I have driven neutral/balanced cars before (but not R cars). I have been through the Bondurant school, so i would like to think i at least know a little bit about neutral vs. oversteer, etc. My question is - is this kind of response normal for the neutral kit, or is something else wrong from all of the other work done previously? Are these symptoms indicative of what is normal for the neutral bar? It almost feels like it is on the verge of oversteer (snap oversteer actually) at initial turn in at highway speeds.<br>Does this make sense? I welcome all thoughts and inputs, as i need to contact the dealer to see how to fix this.<br>Thanks in advance!</TD></TR></TABLE><p>RGROVE, <p>As these folks have mentioned, I"d start with double checking the alignement as the bar upgrade should only make it feel more stable and planted. If you are getting excessive turn in etc, that is almost definately caused by an error in alignment.
 

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Re: IPD rear sway and rear hop problem - please help - advice (JRL)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JRL</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The bar was really designed to go with lowering springs.<br>You are probably the first to install the bar without springs.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>well, I did mine in March--rear bar only, no springs--and I wasn't under the impression that I was the first.
 

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Re: IPD rear sway and rear hop problem - please help - advice (rgrove)

rgrove, I had the rear bushing fix and software update (to address the side-hop issue) last summer, and after getting the car back it was much worse, and behaving similarly to what you describe. Needless to say I was pissed. I brought it back in, and they found some interesting stuff, see: <A HREF="http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=43879" TARGET="_blank">http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=43879</A><p>after fixing those issues, it was actually noticeably better in terms of the hop<p>I installed my IPD rear sway last month, and honestly there isn't a big difference in the side hop--maybe a little better, though thankfully it is certainly not worse.<p>What made the biggest difference has been tires--with my dunlop snow tires on (before the sways were installed, after the bushing/software fix) the hop was virtually gone. My current tire, pzero nero all-seaons, are clearly better than the rossos,but not as good as the snows with their more pliable sidewalls. <p>bottom line, I agree with some others above, sounds like something went amiss with the alignment or install--perhaps an accelerometer got knocked loose like was the case for me. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks to all for the input - I appreciate it very much. I will be following up with the dealer as soon as I get a chance....very busy at work.<br>Scott Hart, can you comment on whether the bar is ok to work without lowering springs?<br>What i can tell you is that once the car is in the twistys, it is much better with the ipd bar. problem is going in a straight line!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Kenschel, we are going to the same dealer group. Im at the libertyville Fields, and so far they have been very good
 

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Re: (rgrove)

i installed my rear IPD bar without lowering springs on my V and notice nothing but improvement. i'm sure it would be even better with springs but i'm not interested in springs at this time. <p>
 

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Re: (jasondew)

They work fine without the springs...<p>I have a track spec setup on mine with stock springs, definitely better planted overall<p>
 

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Re: (rgrove)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rgrove</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kenschel, we are going to the same dealer group. Im at the libertyville Fields, and so far they have been very good</TD></TR></TABLE><p>yep, Fields Waukesha. Your location might be where they got the master mechanic guy who came up my way and figured out what went wrong after the bushing install (see my old thread link above).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Problem solved, by another dealer.... you will NOT believe the cause.<br>I was on my way home from a client and decided to stop at another dealer for an oil change. (This is the dealer I purchased the car from) I mentioned that my headlights were aiming very low, can they please check?<br>About 30 mins later, the tech comes out and says they will be giving me a loaner car - the car should not be driven. I go over what was done, and how i was trying to get the sway-bar installing dealer to respond to feelings that the car was unsafe, etc. to no avail. They then inform me that most of the rear suspension bolts are either loose or falling out. The bolt, for example, that mounts the rear hub to the trailing arm was HALF WAY OUT. These guys immediately put me in a loaner, called the other dealer to determine who would be doing the repair (it was determined that Patrick, the selling dealer, would repair). They showed me pictures that are unbelieveable. Oh, and the reason my headlights were screwed up is because the bracket that connects the alignment sensor to the frame FELL OFF due to loose bolts. It was dragging/hanging down.<br>Also, the other dealer told me that the 10 disc changer i scored on ebay for $50 "just wouldnt work" with my car. This dealer had it installed and working in an hour, and idicated that it appeared the other dealer never even tried to hook it up. <br>The pics of the suspension are staggering. My blood ran cold when I saw them. The endangerement to my life, my wife's, and my unborn son is mind boggling. Im not even sure how to approach/deal with the installing dealer (this was my first interaction with them - and obviously my last) I know that the selling dealer, who fixed the problems, called the service manager at the installing dealer, but i have yet to be contacted by him....<br>Anybody have any thoughts?<br>Thanks fo rthe advice offered!
 

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Re: (rgrove)

I guess the first step would be to bring it up with the original dealership. Maybe you can get a refund on the labor. You have a pretty good case if you have photo evidence.
 

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Re: (frankhoffy)

Could you PLEASE share these pitures with us? If you do not know how to post them I could do this for you. Let me know. I have very similar issues to these and my dealer says all is fine(yea right) like the clunk in the trunk is ok.At low speeds it sounds like I have a dead body in there! Thanks in advance, Rick
 

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Re: (Mash)

Woah! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/eek.gif" BORDER="0"> That is downright scary. I'm glad that you and your family are safe. <p>Honestly, I have no idea how I would even approach the installing dealer with this situation. If you had been in an accident, they could have been liable for faulty installation I would think. At the very, very least, they should refund your money. <p>Again, glad you are ok.<p>P.S. Let us know how it feels once everything is buttoned up!
 

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Re: (frankhoffy)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>frankhoffy</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess the first step would be to bring it up with the original dealership. Maybe you can get a refund on the labor. You have a pretty good case if you have photo evidence.</TD></TR></TABLE><p><br>agreed, the honorable thing would be to refund the labor if you have that kind of proof (found by another volvo dealer even)...there should be groveling involved as well imho.
 

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Re: (rgrove)

And definitely report it to Volvo NA. Send pictures and everything. Ask your fixing dealer if they could write a letter confirming their findings and how the other dealer royally screwed up. I smell a lawsuit.
 

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Re: (rgrove)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>rgrove</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Problem solved, by another dealer.... you will NOT believe the cause.<br></TD></TR></TABLE>I don't find it hard to believe. More often than not, the installation aspect of aftermarket parts is often overlooked as the primary source of issues. I'm glad nothing serious happened and everyone is safe. Give the installing dealer a chance to respond before taking it to the "next level." I don't think you should be paying for the repair at all. If the repairing dealer says you don't owe him anything (assuming the installing dealer is paying for the repairs) , then I wouldn't pursue the matter any further. Also, reporting this to Volvo NA won't make matters better since ithey generally frown on aftermarket issues and would tell you they are not responsible for installation of non OEM parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I will see if I can post pictures. I may need to ask for help on that.<br>As for labor, I was charged 1 hour of laor, because they did it the same time they were doing the rear bushing warranty fix for rear end hop. It was the installing dealers idea to do them both at the same time. I guess my point is that the issue really isnt related to installing an aftermarket part - the majority of the parts that had issues were directly related to the warranty bushing fix, not the parts that were touched to do the anti-sway bar. I guess that to me is more telling than the fact that it was related to an aftermarket bar.<br>Im not sure what to do next. For sure a letter to the dealership owner (actually of both dealerships - one positive, the other maybe not so much so...) and pursuit af a refund. I will probably contact VCOA. Im not much of a suing guy, though, so no lawsuit likely.....<br>ON a positive note, the new rear bar (IPD neutral balance) is SPECTACULAR. Performs exactly as advertised. Also, the rear end hop appears to be gone a this point - car feels best ever.
 
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