SwedeSpeed - Volvo Performance Forum banner

41 - 60 of 69 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Hi,

I have S40 2005.
I fitted 35W HID kit and it is working fine with no modifications. (It has been a while sins last post here, so the may be upgraded the HDI ballast to work with DRLs).
I want to install 55W kit, but it starts for a second and then it shuts down.
If I disable the DRLs will it work, or do I need to make a KBOWE?
Thansk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Officially I'm on sabbatical from SS until blazedani gets banned, but:

Hi,

I have S40 2005.
I fitted 35W HID kit and it is working fine with no modifications. (It has been a while sins last post here, so the may be upgraded the HDI ballast to work with DRLs).
I want to install 55W kit, but it starts for a second and then it shuts down.
If I disable the DRLs will it work, or do I need to make a KBOWE?
Thansk.
KBOWE (with grounding) should be enough. Mine is still working (from 2009). DRL disable adds some extra protection and makes the KBOWE last longer but is not sufficient on it's own.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Hi,

theshadow27, I hope you're still following this thread. I have couple of questions.

1. Does solutions in the first thread could apply to other cars? For example, I read on few places that wiper motor fails on Peugeot 407, Audi A3, and maybe others.
2. I just want to make sure I understood one of the solutions. The second one. So, I need to connect HID kit directly to my car battery and halogen installation will only start the relay? Can I use chassis for (-) wire or should I also connect it to car battery? I'm asking because you mention wire sharing between headlights and wipers.
3. If I use this second solution, does it matter if xenon kit is can-bus?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Yes, still following all my threads :) I just choose not to reply in most of them due to obnoxious members disseminating false information :(

1. Does solutions in the first thread could apply to other cars? For example, I read on few places that wiper motor fails on Peugeot 407, Audi A3, and maybe others.
I don't know.

I don't have access to Peugeot, Audi, or other cars; nor do I have any technical documents, knowledge, or experience with them. The KBOWE is engineered specifically to deal with the ~80Hz PWM modulation in P1 Volvo cars, so I would not use it on anything else unless you know for sure that this is the one and only factor involved. Despite there being "universal" error-code eliminators, the modulation and bulb-out detection mechanisms vary GREATLY between manufacturers, and even between models of the same make; for instance, the KBOWE does not work on P2 Volvo cars.

2. I just want to make sure I understood one of the solutions. The second one. So, I need to connect HID kit directly to my car battery and halogen installation will only start the relay? Can I use chassis for (-) wire or should I also connect it to car battery? I'm asking because you mention wire sharing between headlights and wipers.
You can (and should) use the chassis for ground. The negative battery terminal should never be used for grounding (aside from perhaps a battery charger) as it will create a ground-loop when the alternator is charging the battery. See this thread for more details: http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?129216

3. If I use this second solution, does it matter if xenon kit is can-bus?
No, it does not matter.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "can-bus" ballast that connects with two wires. If a ballast was actually CAN enabled, it would need at least four wires: power, ground, CAN_H and CAN_L. And even then it would not be very useful for retrofitting because you would need a microprocessor to turn it on and off. In my opinion, you should avoid any brand/person that advertises their ballasts/kits as "can-bus" because they clearly have no idea what they are talking about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Thanks for reply. I didn't specifically mean on KBOWE, I meant on battery relay harness as solution for other cars. I know you don't have access, but in your opinion, should battery relay harness work on other cars? Should they all have CEM with PWM? I mean, the same wiper problem happens on the cars I mentioned. People mention lin transceiver gets broken. Although I have Peugeot 307, not 407, I don't want to risk my wipers. Some brands actually claims that their kit won't cause problems. So, if you have some advice here, please write it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #46 ·
This is getting way off topic - remember this thread is about PWM on P1 Volvo cars.

Thanks for reply. I didn't specifically mean on KBOWE, I meant on battery relay harness as solution for other cars. I know you don't have access, but in your opinion, should battery relay harness work on other cars?
Sorry, I'm not going to generalize. A battery harness can bypass some the potential issues, but there are still other ways the retrofit could affect the car.

Without detailed information I can't make a recommendation. I spent 6 months researching, measuring, and analyzing the S40 before I published results.

Should they all have CEM with PWM?
No.

Not all cars have a CEM. Many use distributed modules rather than placing all functionality in a single location. No two cars will be grounded the same way, period. Even if there is a central module, there are many ways the headlight circuit could be switched.

Not all cars use PWM on their headlights, and of those that do, PWM can be voltage, current, or open loop, using fixed or variable frequency from 60Hz to 600KHz. Each feedback method and frequency presents it's own problems.

Not all cars monitor for BOW, and of those that do, there are many methods (voltage, current, hall, RC, RL) of doing so.

I mean, the same wiper problem happens on the cars I mentioned. People mention lin transceiver gets broken.
That is the symptom and not the problem. It is like saying "Many people are dead, therefore, they must have died for the same reason", which is a logical fallacy.

Although I have Peugeot 307, not 407, I don't want to risk my wipers. Some brands actually claims that their kit won't cause problems. So, if you have some advice here, please write it.
Due to the factors I listed above, it is not very likely that a "universal" HID retrofit kit can guarantee that it will not cause problems in your specific car. Maybe you can find an electrical engineer who has researched your Peugeot to give you an answer you like better. But my advice: If you don't want to risk your wipers, don't modify your car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Sorry for going off topic, and thanks again for explanation. The thing is, you're the only one that wrote any explanation about this problem. And I can't find anyone reliable to examine this. And if there is somebody mentioning this, they only say put can-bus, which I suspected is just a marketing, and you confirmed it to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Measured 82 hz, 12.02 volts at the bulb. I'm very suspicious of that measurement... PWM (for LEDs anyway) is normally in the 100-300khz range. <p>If that's the real measurement, there isn't a big enough coil available to do solution II practically. That leaves I and III.
I have been planning my HID install for some time and had planned a completely different approach. I was going to solve the BOW problem using resistors but still wanted to do the fogs for DRLs. So I worked up a circuit design to filter the DRL signal to tell me if the car was in DRL mode or headlight mode. Just to confirm I got out my oscilloscope to check the waveform. 80Hz is right but the odd thing was the duty cycle. Only about 8% low. Here is a drawing of the actual waveform.

With this I had to redesign my circuit as the design I had did not work on this odd waveform, as it was intended for 50% duty cycle. In the end I went a completely different way and am still troubleshooting some issues but at least the HIDs work.

But I thought it would be helpful to show the actual DRL waveform.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #49 ·
80Hz is right but the odd thing was the duty cycle. Only about 8% low. Here is a drawing of the actual waveform.
Cool, always good to be independently verified :) That's pretty much what my scope looked like.

The duty cycle is expected to be high (short "off" duration) - as noted in the first post, the PWM regulation is designed to maintain an output voltage of 13.0V. Assuming an input of 14.0V and constant load, we would expect a duty cycle of 13.0V/14.0V = 92.85% or 7~8% off time. The exact off time depends on battery voltage.

Some suggestions for detecting this sort of signal:
  • Use a 1:1 high-impedance transformer (1+kohm), primary across CEM output, secondary to bridge rectifier with capacitor. Capacitor will only charge when signal is AC (PWM)
  • Two optoisolators, one connected B+ ---|>|--- E:25, the other E:25 ---|>|--- GND, with capacitors on the output. Consider the outputs to be 2 bits:
    00 - Car off
    10 - Lights off
    01 - Lights on
    11 - PWM on
    then use relay logic (or an actual gate) to detect the appropriate condition.
  • A 555 missing pulse detector (e.g. http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/555.html#22) is a workable approach.
  • Obviously, a small ATTiny (40 or 80) could provide very reliable detection, but would have to be programmed and ruggedized.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
How about this:


The 3904s play clamp to rapidly pull down the voltage across the cap in the narrow pulse and then the RC pulls it up slowly so that it only crosses the comparator threshold when the headlights are to be on.

But I went another way after this, one without electronics that still needs some work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #51 · (Edited)
The 3904s play clamp to rapidly pull down the voltage across the cap in the narrow pulse and then the RC pulls it up slowly so that it only crosses the comparator threshold when the headlights are to be on.

But I went another way after this, one without electronics that still needs some work.
Hmm.. Elegant concept, complex implementation... If we're playing spice, this works just as well:



(Turns on after ~250ms)

Do note that neither of these are entirely accurate simulations - the CEM output is not grounded during the off cycle, it's a P channel FET that goes high impedance. The signal is pulled down by the bulb (or resistor) which is usually around 3 ohms. Basically, the equivalent resistance is <.1 ohm when on, and 3 ohms when off. Just trivia, can be ignored for all intents and purposes.

BTW though the output is not as clean as a dedicated comparator, the trusty LM741 is rated at +/-22V rails and 30V input differential, so it can usually be used directly in automotive applications without extra protection (though a bypass cap and reverse polarity protection never hurt) and can sink enough current to drive a small relay (e.g. RadioShack 275-233 1100 ohms, ~12mA).

Out of curiosity, how did you implement this without electronics?

Edit: Just pulled the datasheet for the LM111 - I assumed from the +5 on your schematic that it was CMOS but it's a good-old-BJT chip after all. I withdraw my previous comment about the LM741 being more suitable, the specs are similar and it can sink more current. (741 is probably easier to get, however). Not sure why you have it running on a separate +5 rail though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Kill the DRLs, then the headlight signal IS the headlight signal which we were trying to derive and the former DRL signal is the inverse, so use the headlight signal to drive a Form C relay with the wiper arm being the fog light, NC being switched 12V and the old fog light signal is the NO. I figured out the switched 12V the hard way by first using the battery 12V and then having the fogs always on, even when the car is off. So I am looking for switched 12V under the hood to make it happen. I was running out of time by then and had to concentrate on the HIDs, so fogs/DRLs are now a project for later. Never used them as fogs anyway and can live without DRLs for awhile.

I had actually bought LM311s not LM111s but my free version of Pspice has only limited components, so I used the one comparator I had for the simulation. I am a comparator as a comparator purist and had to buy all the parts anyway (my old parts selection getting lost 20 years ago or so in some various packing/cleaning effort), so might as well use a real comparator to drive the PCB relay that was the real part driving the HID and fog relays. And then I figured out the relay approach and left the parts in the parts bin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
I had the +5V because 1) that is what I always used back in the beginning of time as a real working engineer doing engine controller and similar designs and 2) I do not like powering the electronics directly from the battery because of the nasty voltages and transients that float around and can toast them. I use LM3940s, which originally was an automotive-oriented low drop out voltage regulator and specifically designed to filter out all of the VBatt nastiness and provide a nice, safe voltage. I remember back when National had just developed it and it was magical to drive our controllers. Radically simplified the power supply designs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #54 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Had my HID kit installet inside the headlights for 3 years with no issues.
Nothing has melted or anything.
35W kit with digital ballasts.
Connected to a "HID Decoder/Canceller"

Without that HID decoder/canceller the light was flickering like a stroboscope :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Unknown

So I hate to be that guy, and being new here and all but I recently got a bow-3 kit to put on my 2010 v50 thinking to myself this was a rather splendid idea as it would keep the light off and id have HID's in my vehicle but after reading everyone talking about the DRL disable I got curious as to why they were disabling them and got to searching and now I'm worried :( if I take my vehicle to the dealer and get the software update to disable the DRL's will I be in the clear or will I still be on borrowed time till the PWM takes out both my HID's and my wipers?

Thanks for your input.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Discussion Starter · #58 ·
So I hate to be that guy, and being new here and all but I recently got a bow-3 kit to put on my 2010 v50 thinking to myself this was a rather splendid idea as it would keep the light off and id have HID's in my vehicle but after reading everyone talking about the DRL disable I got curious as to why they were disabling them and got to searching and now I'm worried :( if I take my vehicle to the dealer and get the software update to disable the DRL's will I be in the clear or will I still be on borrowed time till the PWM takes out both my HID's and my wipers?

Thanks for your input.
As you've found this thread I assume you know my opinion - based on what I've seen your best bet is a full KBOWE. This is a hard line to take as I'm not making them and it's not a simple automotive DIY (especially now that Radio Shack has closed...) but the combination of capacitance and separate ground seem to be the most effective approach. For the record, I'm coming up on 7 years of the original system, having gone through 2 sets of ballasts and 4 sets of bulbs (@55w, bulbs don't last long) without issues.

There's lots of other opinions, many without basis in fact, see http://forums.swedespeed.com/showth...ID-Data-If-you-have-installed-a-kit-read-this if you're interested.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
180 Posts
I've had a wiper motor go bananas when I didn't have a KBOWE, kind of hilarious but I was glad it happened in summer and I found a cheap replacement. Would have sucked if it was the CEM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
So I decided to do some testing of my own, now ive only owned this vehicle for a few weeks and know that the previous owner serviced it at a dealer (have yet to get the service records from them), but my DRL are still in operation knowing that the CEM PWM the voltage to be a constant 13v at the bulb I figured my voltmeter would also see 13v and I could see if the CEM also PWM the voltage when the switch is in the "Manual" On postion (last position on switch). I found something rather odd I was getting full system voltage at the lights in both DRL and Manual on position does that seem odd to anyone else?
 
41 - 60 of 69 Posts
Top