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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Back when I did my CAI, I didn't have a dremmel, so I never removed my "keyhole" support.



I have a dremmel now, although I don't have the hang of cutting plastic yet. Either I melt it because rpms are too fast, or I chip the disc.




Anyways, thought you would appreciate this. I call it "Keyhole of Turin".




Clearly shows that air (along with dust) was making it into airbox even when it was only feeding small area. Not surprising that air will force its way in when you feed from possibly the highest pressure point on the car (fog light grills).

And that is with my bad adapter nozzle pointing 45 degrees away from airflow (haven't actually put proper nozzle on yet).



But even with that, check out this video clip. Had a guy point air gun at fog light grill simulating air flow...

http://www.ss.otheron.com/rkelly/video/CAI.MOV

Stay tuned, I've found some even better part options recently and may be selling a kit that works better, looks professional and will be easy to do yourself. Will be under $100 if it works out right.
 

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Re: (JimLill)

I think Volvo calls it the "snow valve". The intake can plug up in winter and this is designed-in as insurance.

Worth considering that when drift-busting! I guess only Bylle needs to worry about that right about this time of year tho.


Tom.
 

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Re: For anyone doubting the airflow benefits of fog-light CAI ("R" Kelly)

Thx, the "dirt" on the filter proves the airflow gets in, THAT's what I wanted to know.

The movie proved "nothing
just "pointing" an airgun towards the fog-grill isn't a REAL simulations of the airflow irl.
I feared that the aerodynamics would have pushed the air (at higher speeds) away way before it could hit the grills. Think of the "bug-shield" some cool US-trucks have at the front top of the hood -> that creates an airflow that directs the air (and thus incomming bugs) towards the hood of the truckcabin so the windscreen stays clear of "most" dirt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: For anyone doubting the airflow benefits of fog-light CAI (JARMO)

Quote, originally posted by JARMO »
The movie proved "nothing
just "pointing" an airgun towards the fog-grill isn't a REAL simulations of the airflow irl.

You are absolutely right, no air gun with a tiny nozzle can simulate the amount of air that will get forced in when traveling at 60+ miles per hour. It was coming in with so much force that it made its way out of the keyhole, and that is why you see dust build up to the right of keyhole, where air makes its way out of filter towards turbo.

I don't think your analogy makes sense, because fog light grills are recessed, the lower lip of the grill acts like a splitter forcing air up and in, and the lower bumper (foward most part of car) directs air down and into fog light area.

Hence this diagram. Although stock R doesn't have this much of splitter, aerodynamic principle holds.

 

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Re: For anyone doubting the airflow benefits of fog-light CAI ("R" Kelly)

Quote, originally posted by "R" Kelly »

Stay tuned, I've found some even better part options recently and may be selling a kit that works better, looks professional and will be easy to do yourself. Will be under $100 if it works out right.

Hmm... I might be very interested in this. Keep us up to date. Nice work!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: (cloaked)

Quote, originally posted by cloaked »
mounting that filter that low can cause some serious problems with water splash.

what filter are you talking about???


Do you have any idea what you are talking about or are you just posting because you have a problem with me? The only filter is the stock or BMC filter.
 

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Re: ("R" Kelly)

Does the increased airflow (and perhaps excess air flow?) mean that the diameter of the intake should be 1/2 inch smaller? Just asking...also, for the stock air filter, did you have the "sock" on or off the filter?

BTW, this is excellent DIY work, IMO.
 

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Re: (cloaked)

Running in the rain, and theoretically even submerging that inlet in a puddle, although i'm not sure why you would do that (what puddles are you driving through that are that deep anyway) wouldn't do anything at all.

Consider the actual physics of it...here's a good test for you - go out and lunch and order a glass of water. Ask the waitress for two straws. Put one straw in the water, one straw outside the glass, and the other ends of both in your mouth. Now try really hard to suck water up out of your glass. You won't be able to, because the straw that is outside the glass equalizes the pressure by sucking in air. Therefore, no water in your mouth.

Same principle holds true here. As long as the main intake isn't submerged, then it won't matter if hte CAI is or not, there wont' be enough pressure to suck water into the system.

I woulnd't worry too much.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: For anyone doubting the airflow benefits of fog-light CAI ("R" Kelly)

Quote, originally posted by cloaked »
Well put it on in the rain and drive through a nice puddle of water then report back since you have all the answers lol

Dude, seriously, read a science book if your going to spout your mouth off in my thread. I answered this previously.

Quote, originally posted by LTA »
I'm not too worried about one other the other getting plugged up. I'm more interested in the possibility of rain water or snow ending up in the box and what that might do. I know the filter is there but if the CAI adds potential for more water getting in the box than it was desinged for it might be a problem, no? What's your experience in heavy rain and snow been like?

Quote, originally posted by "R" Kelly »
The air box/filter is about 2 feet higher in elevation than the intake hose at the fog light grill, so for ANYTHING besides air to even make it to the filter inside the airbox it has to defy some gravity and make a couple of turns.

The only way for there to be enough of a vacuum in the CAI line do defy this gravity and make the turns is if the main intake was plugged IMO (or if you were running a PHENOMENAL amount of boost).

Even if the CAI line was under water so it plugged, the engine would just suck air in through the normal intake (like it was designed to do), which should be above water (if it isn't, you have bigger problems). You would have to have so much vacuum in the air box that the main intake couldn't satisfy it, so it starts inhaling water from the CAI line.

Perfect example, put one end of a straw off to the side of your mouth and keep your mouth open. Insert the other end into a soda. No inhale really hard. Did the soda climb the straw? Only if you close your mouth almost all the way (e.g. only if main intake plugs).

Now, take that same straw and stand off to the side of a fan, but put the end of the straw in the air stream. You can still breath normally through your mouth, but you will have extra air forcing its way into your mouth through the straw, pre-emptively satisfying any air requirement from heavy breathing as a result of exertion (a slight RAM-AIR effect).

Something to note, the main intake is essentially level with the airbox, so you are more likely to get snow/water (bee) in through there because there is no gravity to fight, they just have to ride the air current.

Quote, originally posted by JimLill »
In my original design, one of the reason I brought the added duct in on the cover was that it makes the line 2X as long and gravity will keep more of the water out...

Jim, since you only ran a 2" hose instead of a 2.5", if there were a "vacuum" effect in the CAI tube, wouldn't it be stronger in yours because it has a smaller diameter? Again, this is more of a ram air system, NOT a vacuum system unless the main intake gets completely plugged.

And wow, since I used 32" of hose line, I have a hard time believing that you used twice as much line. Certainly not 32" to get around the side of the airbox.

Also, with your placement, if water did make it's way into the box from the CAI line, it would spray onto the top of the filter and possibly fill up the the top grooves (again, this would never happen, but we are dealing in silly theorecticals here). Feeding air into the bottom means if any water did make its way in onto the bottom of the filter, gravity would drain it out of the drain hole in the corner.

Finally, I can make my airbox stock again valve and all in 5 minutes. Hard to do with a hole drilled in the side


Quote, originally posted by Sailrace »
Running in the rain, and theoretically even submerging that inlet in a puddle, although i'm not sure why you would do that (what puddles are you driving through that are that deep anyway) wouldn't do anything at all.

Consider the actual physics of it...here's a good test for you - go out and lunch and order a glass of water. Ask the waitress for two straws. Put one straw in the water, one straw outside the glass, and the other ends of both in your mouth. Now try really hard to suck water up out of your glass. You won't be able to, because the straw that is outside the glass equalizes the pressure by sucking in air. Therefore, no water in your mouth.

Same principle holds true here. As long as the main intake isn't submerged, then it won't matter if hte CAI is or not, there wont' be enough pressure to suck water into the system.

I woulnd't worry too much.

http://********************/smile/emthup.gif http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
 

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R Kelly,

Good to know there are some rational people here who still believe in science and physics.

It was great to see that the CAI is working with pressure enough to show that Keyhole imprint of dust.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: (23109VC)

Quote, originally posted by 23109VC »
does the car FEEL any faster with this mod?



nah, not really.
 

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Re: ("R" Kelly)

...and in layman's terms, what do all these graphs mean? Comparing before & after, what are the differences?
 

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Re: For anyone doubting the airflow benefits of fog-light CAI ("R" Kelly)

No way a water puddle is going to go up that ridged hose into the filter. Air has a hard enough time making turns due to its mass. Water finds it nearly impossible. Your hose is ridged and bends up. Water isn't going to go past the first ridge it hits, except a few drops of splash off that. We had systems designed like that in the Navy, using simple physics to remove the water from air. A lot more water and a lot more air. Now if you're submerged, that's a different problem and we're no longer caring much about the air filter.

All that said, I just don't get this second intake, if you can call it that. If ram induction could provide enough air flow, we wouldn't have a turbocharger installed. The turbo only needs help with feed airflow when the exiting intake flow is insufficient for the turbo's needs. In other words, the turbo can compress more air than it is able to get.

Did someone measure and find out the volumetric flow rate of the turbo's intake was less than its capability?

Before and after the mod, did someone measure the volumetric flow rate of the turbo's exhaust to see if it had changed?
 
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