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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Just purchased the vehicle about 3 weeks ago and am very pleased with the condition and performance of the vehicle. I did have a sneaking suspicion that my speedo was off, so I wanted to strap it down to check the speedo vs. the dyno, which mysteriously was dead on after 2 separate gps devices told me otherwise.

Anyways, I figured I may as well go ahead and do some pulls to get some baseline hp/tq numbers and check boost levels and air/fuel ratio. Boost levels were between 10-16psi, and air/fuel ratio was ALL jacked up. It's almost like it's staying in closed loop and targetting stoichiometric afr until right before red line where it drops down pig rich in to the 10's. The car runs smooth and no signs of detonation or anything along those lines, but being as that I am an EFI tuner specializing in forced induction applications, I know it is not proper or beneficial to power, longevity, or engine safety to run that lean at those (or any) boost levels. Any insight on what might be causing this issue? I know that this can't be the way Volvo intended the engine run under boost.

WHP/TQ




Boost/AFR (boost is the dotted line referenced to the right axis, AFR is the solid line referenced on the left axis)






 

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that's a very interesting run, especially for a turbo car.

a lot of newer, well, 07+ turbo Subarus were having problems running lean. It turns out Subaru was trying to pass emissions requirements, so they ran the engine very very lean. Result was blown engines, bone stock from the showroom. The solution was to get it tuned with an aftermarket tune as soon as you got the car.

With this engine running this lean, I wonder if they're preventing detonation by excessively retarding ignition timing. Would be interesting to see how much power this engine can make with a good tune, running in the 11's AFR and with advanced ignition timing.

Thanks for the dyno. I've been getting ready to dyno my V8 to get a baseline. Also, your video doesn't have sound. Is this expected?

For comparison, this is my Subaru - a 2005 STi with a professional tune for power. It runs rich to protect the engine. You'll notice that after the turbo spools, it immediately dives down to the 10's AFR. The difference is here, the timing is very advanced.

fair warning for the video; while your video has no audio, mine has very loud terrible music. turn your speakers down, wait a few seconds and turn it up slowly.


 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm not sure why it's running that way under boost, but I am sure the engine, pcm, sensors, spark plugs, every single thing on the vehicle functions 100%, so it really almost leads me to believe that volvo actually intended it to run that way. With 8.5:1 compression and extremely retarded timing, it may be possible to run it that lean?? I don't know, I've never in my 10 years of EFI tuning have seen a factory vehicle that runs that lean under any WOT conditions, boosted or not. Either way it's not optimal for engine safety or power. Fuel cools the cylinder temps along with necessarry for proper combustion. Anywhere from 10.5 - 12.0:1 (11.5 being usually most efficient and safe) afr is optimal for pretty much every forced induction 4 stroke engine, the leaner you run in that window, the hotter your cylinder temps are (which will cause a hotter slightly more explosive combustion, therefore usually seeing a small power increase from running on the richer end), the richer you run in that window, you have proper combustion and a little extra for cylinder cooling. With proper ignition timing maps, any afr within that range will not make much power difference.

I'm hoping for some input from someone who has dyno'd their stock xc90, or has experience with dyno tuning volvo's and what program is the best for end user adjustability. I emailed Rica with some technical questions, hopefully they tell me what I want to hear. A proper tune leaves room for ton's of power on this thing. I was suprised the boost levels are that high from the facotry, but when factoring in a 20% drivetrain loss (which is pretty much typical percentage for auotmatic transmissions), the power works out from being rated at 268hp at the engine, to 212 at the wheels. Oh well, bottom line is it will be getting tuned asap.

Thanks for the vid of your sti, I tune a lot of wrx's, sti's and evo's, (along with just about everything else). We are a cobb pro dealer and certified pro tuner. I've got tons of video's and graphs of sti's I've tuned. I just did a stock block '05 sti with perrin gt35r kit and water/meth about a week ago, made 475whp on 19psi. If your on fb, search 'go majestic', Majestic Motorsports is where I work, we've got some video's and graphs of the stuff we tune.
 

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I'm not sure why it's running that way under boost, but I am sure the engine, pcm, sensors, spark plugs, every single thing on the vehicle functions 100%, so it really almost leads me to believe that volvo actually intended it to run that way. With 8.5:1 compression and extremely retarded timing, it may be possible to run it that lean?? I don't know, I've never in my 10 years of EFI tuning have seen a factory vehicle that runs that lean under any WOT conditions, boosted or not. Either way it's not optimal for engine safety or power. Fuel cools the cylinder temps along with necessarry for proper combustion. Anywhere from 10.5 - 12.0:1 (11.5 being usually most efficient and safe) afr is optimal for pretty much every forced induction 4 stroke engine, the leaner you run in that window, the hotter your cylinder temps are (which will cause a hotter slightly more explosive combustion, therefore usually seeing a small power increase from running on the richer end), the richer you run in that window, you have proper combustion and a little extra for cylinder cooling. With proper ignition timing maps, any afr within that range will not make much power difference.

I'm hoping for some input from someone who has dyno'd their stock xc90, or has experience with dyno tuning volvo's and what program is the best for end user adjustability. I emailed Rica with some technical questions, hopefully they tell me what I want to hear. A proper tune leaves room for ton's of power on this thing. I was suprised the boost levels are that high from the facotry, but when factoring in a 20% drivetrain loss (which is pretty much typical percentage for auotmatic transmissions), the power works out from being rated at 268hp at the engine, to 212 at the wheels. Oh well, bottom line is it will be getting tuned asap.

Thanks for the vid of your sti, I tune a lot of wrx's, sti's and evo's, (along with just about everything else). We are a cobb pro dealer and certified pro tuner. I've got tons of video's and graphs of sti's I've tuned. I just did a stock block '05 sti with perrin gt35r kit and water/meth about a week ago, made 475whp on 19psi. If your on fb, search 'go majestic', Majestic Motorsports is where I work, we've got some video's and graphs of the stuff we tune.
Oh awesome, you'll find me on NASIOC as "atomicfire'

I wonder though, with the Subaru and Evo ECU's we can use an Openport cable and reflash the ECU. There has been some work in this on the Volvo side with Motronic Studio, but it deals mostly with the older 850 turbo ECUs. I don't think anyone has figured out an open-source solution yet for the newer Volvos. Interesting if we could get software and electronics engineers to work on it. My aerospace degree isn't going to help much here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Oh awesome, you'll find me on NASIOC as "atomicfire'

I wonder though, with the Subaru and Evo ECU's we can use an Openport cable and reflash the ECU. There has been some work in this on the Volvo side with Motronic Studio, but it deals mostly with the older 850 turbo ECUs. I don't think anyone has figured out an open-source solution yet for the newer Volvos. Interesting if we could get software and electronics engineers to work on it. My aerospace degree isn't going to help much here.
I seriously doubt there is any open source definition files for the volvo's or I probably would have heard of something by now. I use open source on evo's and wrx's as well, and have a tactrix cable. Surprisingly volvo's and saab's are about the only platforms that I don't have a licensed tuning solution for. I tune everything from 1500+whp race cars with stand alone ems, honda's, vw/audi's, gm, ford, etc. We are dealers and licensed tuners for haltech, motec, aem, Revo, hp tuners, sct, diablo, and I've used just about every off the wall 3rd party tuning software at some point in time as well. I have never until now been approached about tuning a volvo or saab, so never had the need to do any research in to the best option. I too have absolutely no experience with writing software or dissassembling rom dumps, and have learned over the years not to hold your breath waiting for someone who says they're 'making progress' on any open source style platforms.

As far as my video not having sound, I have no clue why it didn't record, but was pretty upset. I didn't realize it until I had already unstrapped the vehicle. I've never once had my iphone record a video with no sound. A dyno video with no sounds is about equal to a woman with no vagina. It does look pretty on the rollers though :) I'll keep the thread updated with what I hear back from Rica, and hopefully we'll become a dealer for them if I'm satisfied with what their software offers for end user/tuner adjustability. There will definitely be more dyno graphs soon, and definitely with sound lol.
 

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I seriously doubt there is any open source definition files for the volvo's or I probably would have heard of something by now. I use open source on evo's and wrx's as well, and have a tactrix cable. Surprisingly volvo's and saab's are about the only platforms that I don't have a licensed tuning solution for. I tune everything from 1500+whp race cars with stand alone ems, honda's, vw/audi's, gm, ford, etc. We are dealers and licensed tuners for haltech, motec, aem, Revo, hp tuners, sct, diablo, and I've used just about every off the wall 3rd party tuning software at some point in time as well. I have never until now been approached about tuning a volvo or saab, so never had the need to do any research in to the best option. I too have absolutely no experience with writing software or dissassembling rom dumps, and have learned over the years not to hold your breath waiting for someone who says they're 'making progress' on any open source style platforms.

As far as my video not having sound, I have no clue why it didn't record, but was pretty upset. I didn't realize it until I had already unstrapped the vehicle. I've never once had my iphone record a video with no sound. A dyno video with no sounds is about equal to a woman with no vagina. It does look pretty on the rollers though :) I'll keep the thread updated with what I hear back from Rica, and hopefully we'll become a dealer for them if I'm satisfied with what their software offers for end user/tuner adjustability. There will definitely be more dyno graphs soon, and definitely with sound lol.
If you do hear more from Rica, I would be really interested in working with you. I'd like to get my V8 tuned, and if you're a Rica dealer I need a new exhaust too :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If you do hear more from Rica, I would be really interested in working with you. I'd like to get my V8 tuned, and if you're a Rica dealer I need a new exhaust too :D
I'll definitely keep everyone posted. I really can't believe nobody has posted up any first hand experience's of dyno'ing and/or having their t6 platform tuned.
 

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I've got several dyno results for my T6. It's in a 2000 S80, but the results are what matters, right?

The first was done to establish a baseline


The second one was done a year later, after I had done a complete stage zero, added a 3" exhaust and an IPD tune:



Unfortunately, neither of the pulls captured AFRs. Afterwards, I found a significant boost leak due to a cracked 2 into 1 pipe. In 09' I added a fmic and water injection, but the transmission died before I could get back to the dyno.

I expect that performance will be limited to around 240whp due to the small hotside of the stock turbo. Do you have any 1st hand experience with Civinco's piggyback system?
 

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I'll definitely keep everyone posted. I really can't believe nobody has posted up any first hand experience's of dyno'ing and/or having their t6 platform tuned.
im not suprised...i dont think there is anyone on this forum with first hand ME7.x tuning experience

tuning the t6 engine especially on an XC90 will make that weak transmission....uhm, dead?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I've got several dyno results for my T6. It's in a 2000 S80, but the results are what matters, right?

The first was done to establish a baseline

The second one was done a year later, after I had done a complete stage zero, added a 3" exhaust and an IPD tune:


Unfortunately, neither of the pulls captured AFRs. Afterwards, I found a significant boost leak due to a cracked 2 into 1 pipe. In 09' I added a fmic and water injection, but the transmission died before I could get back to the dyno.

I expect that performance will be limited to around 240whp due to the small hotside of the stock turbo. Do you have any 1st hand experience with Civinco's piggyback system?
Wow, impressive that your baseline dyno graph, is identical numbers to mine +/-1, on two different types of dyno's none the less. The power it made was pretty much what I expected, the thing that concerns me is the air/fuel ratio under boost and the power curve not being smooth. Peak tq is at about the same place on your graph and mine, however you're tq carries out all the way, like it should.

By looking at your second dyno graph, I almost wonder if the boost leak occurred during your second dyno pull around 4200 rpm's where you see peak power is much sooner, then just falls off. If it carried power all the way out on the initial dyno graph, it should have followed the same curve, just maybe made more.

No, I don't have any experience with the Civinco's piggy back, nor have I heard of it honestly. I have experience with many other piggy back systems (i.e. aem fi/c, greddy emanage, haltech interceptor, split second). I'll have to do a little research on it.



im not suprised...i dont think there is anyone on this forum with first hand ME7.x tuning experience

tuning the t6 engine especially on an XC90 will make that weak transmission....uhm, dead?
haha, let's hope not, guess I'll find out soon enough. My transmission was replaced with an aftermarket reman. unit about 15k miles ago (before I bought the vehicle), tranny cooler, and all tranny lines were replaced as well. I do plan to drop the pan soon and check everything out and possibly add an additional tranny cooler with thermo fan. Time will tell...
 

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I'm not doubting your shop's performance, but there are a few transmission shops out there that have resolved the problems with the 4 speed auto and know how to make it bulletproof now. I got quoted $5200 for work, labor, and parts to service a currently working 4 speed auto that can handle 500hp and 500lb-ft of torque at the crank - so it is possible. You just need deep pockets, a lot of work, and a lot of labor to get that thing out.

I would stay away from piggyback computers for our Volvos - the computer is so advanced that after a few hours of driving the computer can learn to work around the piggyback. This is proven to happen on 32-bit Subaru computers, newer Mazda turbo computers, and the Genesis Coupe computer. The best solution is to download the programming, modify it, and write it back.

As I mentioned before, the Subaru and Mitsubishi crowd has already figured it out - mostly by reverse-engineering the "DIY Software Upgrade" kits that Subaru used to sell. Since I know we have the capability to do it with VIDAS (albeit with a expensive paid subscription to get it to work), I'm sure some bright EE and Embedded Firmware people can figure it out.

It's exciting to see the turbo Saab community - they recently just figured out how to flash and modify the ROM on their computers. In fact, the Motronic Suite is developed by the same guys that spearheaded the effort to reverse the Saab ECUs.

I'm all for major companies like IPD, Viva, and Rica to make money off their efforts, but there needs to be more options. In the Subaru community, Cobb is really the only big name in commercial-paid-for ECU tuning. But even with the availability of completely 100% free tuning software and an open free design on the cable needed to interface with the computer, there are two very active communities for tuning the computer. Cobb Tuning continues to do very well, and there are new developments in the open-source tuning every week.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm not doubting your shop's performance, but there are a few transmission shops out there that have resolved the problems with the 4 speed auto and know how to make it bulletproof now. I got quoted $5200 for work, labor, and parts to service a currently working 4 speed auto that can handle 500hp and 500lb-ft of torque at the crank - so it is possible. You just need deep pockets, a lot of work, and a lot of labor to get that thing out.

I would stay away from piggyback computers for our Volvos - the computer is so advanced that after a few hours of driving the computer can learn to work around the piggyback. This is proven to happen on 32-bit Subaru computers, newer Mazda turbo computers, and the Genesis Coupe computer. The best solution is to download the programming, modify it, and write it back.

As I mentioned before, the Subaru and Mitsubishi crowd has already figured it out - mostly by reverse-engineering the "DIY Software Upgrade" kits that Subaru used to sell. Since I know we have the capability to do it with VIDAS (albeit with a expensive paid subscription to get it to work), I'm sure some bright EE and Embedded Firmware people can figure it out.

It's exciting to see the turbo Saab community - they recently just figured out how to flash and modify the ROM on their computers. In fact, the Motronic Suite is developed by the same guys that spearheaded the effort to reverse the Saab ECUs.

I'm all for major companies like IPD, Viva, and Rica to make money off their efforts, but there needs to be more options. In the Subaru community, Cobb is really the only big name in commercial-paid-for ECU tuning. But even with the availability of completely 100% free tuning software and an open free design on the cable needed to interface with the computer, there are two very active communities for tuning the computer. Cobb Tuning continues to do very well, and there are new developments in the open-source tuning every week.
I agree completely, I dispise piggy back systems, always have. There are some out there that have more ability than others to alter more signals (such as o2 feedback feedback etc.). I would honestly never put a piggy back on any vehicle I own, unless it was specifically designed for that vehicle and was tried and true.

Technically the honda crowd was the first to crack oem processor code data, I was tuning honda's with freeware as long as 11 years ago. I pretty much know the best tuning solution for almost all vehicles (except volvo's and saab's, which ironically I just aquired a '91 saab 9000 as well). The simple fact remains that I am a trained and experienced EFI tuner, and don't like the idea of just a 'reflash' and email tuning. I want to be able to tune my own vehicle :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I'm not doubting your shop's performance, but there are a few transmission shops out there that have resolved the problems with the 4 speed auto and know how to make it bulletproof now. I got quoted $5200 for work, labor, and parts to service a currently working 4 speed auto that can handle 500hp and 500lb-ft of torque at the crank - so it is possible. You just need deep pockets, a lot of work, and a lot of labor to get that thing out..
On another note, it's funny you mention that number... I have the receipts for the tranny work done to the vehicle before I purchased it and was exactly 5200 lol. I've still got a little over 2 years of warranty left on it as well. My shop had nothing to do with the transmission work, it was done before I purchased the vehicle, it was done at AAMCO, with I'm skeptical of, in my opinion they're like the 'jiffy lube' of transmission work. I did go over the install very meticulously and was pleased to see everything was back in exact factory locations (brackets, lines, etc), as well as a very clean install (no scratches or anything anywhere under the vehicle or engine bay). Guess I'll find out. I honestly haven't done enough research on the tranny to find out what the weak point actually is and what can be done to ensure maximum life out of it (especially at higher than stock power levels), other than the obvious tranny cooler upgrade and more frequent than required services.
 

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$5200!?! Wow!

May I suggest that you bookmark http://www.tripledgeperformance.com for future reference. My hi-performance transmission rebuild (with a custom torque convertor) only set me back $3K.

There are several weak links to the 4t65e. The tripleedge website can better explain them than I can. However, an external cooler can really help prolong your transmission - if for no other reason than the fact that the stock radiator has plastic end tanks (which are prone to failure over time) which will take the transmission out with it once it fails.

I asked about the civinco piggy-back system because I had heard that it was a viable solution for our ME7 platform and since you are a professional tuner I thought that you could confirm whether that statement was factual or not. I have spoken with ARD, and I've been assure that they can provide me a custom tune for my application, but I too would like the ability to customize my tune as needed. If you learn of a solution, please let me know. I'm familiar with the Beulaville/Jacksonville area, maybe I'll stop by the shop the next time that I'm down that way.
 

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The quote for $5200 was for a "heavy duty" build that can take nearly double the power and torque output from the engine. The $3k build you have was probably (I'm just guessing here) just a stock rebuild where they replaced the failed parts with stock equivalents and addressed the common failure points so it doesn't fail again - given the stock power level.

Important to note that once you hit the kinds of power levels where you need to worry about the transmission holding up - the angle gear is probably going to be the next concern. I don't know of anyone that makes a stronger collar / angle gear set.

Kevin - I hope you didn't pay for that transmission job. $5200 is a bit steep for a stock-level rebuild on that transmission - though I'd imagine if you paid that much and it included having them remove and reinstall the transmission, the extra cost was probably to get it out of the car and back in for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Kevin - I hope you didn't pay for that transmission job. $5200 is a bit steep for a stock-level rebuild on that transmission - though I'd imagine if you paid that much and it included having them remove and reinstall the transmission, the extra cost was probably to get it out of the car and back in for you.
No, I didn't pay that. The repairs were done by the previous owner about 3 months before they traded it in. I only paid 10,200 for the vehicle, so I know they lost their ass when they traded it in considering they just spent 5200 on it. And yes, that was all parts, labor, as well as a 30 day after repair performance/service check up to ensure everything was still working properly. I still have about 25 months or 85k miles left on the warranty for the tranny, so if it's gonna bust, hopefully it happens before then lol.
 

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The quote for $5200 was for a "heavy duty" build that can take nearly double the power and torque output from the engine. The $3k build you have was probably (I'm just guessing here) just a stock rebuild where they replaced the failed parts with stock equivalents and addressed the common failure points so it doesn't fail again - given the stock power level.
Negative ghost rider.... That $3k total got me what you refer to as a "Heavy Duty" build - consisting of internals (clutch packs, solenoids, shift kits, etc), a heavy duty input shaft, 7/8th hi-performance chain, re-worked valve body and a customized torque convertor with a 3k stall speed. You can read more about my build in this thread here:
http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?130656-S80-transmission-rebuild&daysprune=-1

There is an 11 second turbocharged 5.3 liter FWD Monte Carlo SS whose transmission was built by tripleedgeperformance floating around the internet - that car has over 500hp at the wheels. My transmission was built exactly like that one, by the same person, using the same components (except for the TC - I have a lower stall speed) so I am confident that it too will support far more HP than my T6 can produce - at least until I find a viable tuning solution which is able to support larger turbo(s).

I'm sure that the builder you spoke of can also build a 4T65E to support large amount of HP, I just want to stress that it can be accomplished (and done right) for less than $5200.00

Oh, and here is the video of that monte carlo's 11 second pass. Enjoy:

 
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