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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

I had an idea. I have no idea if this would work or not, even be necessary, or if it would screw up anything, and that's why I'm gonna ask you smarter people.

Seeing mullen's custom CAP, I was wondering if instead of a full CAP, one could put a small, thin intercooler as a top mount with 2.5" on either side as the rest of the former charge pipe. One like this: http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchan...e=CXR&Product_Code=IC-B928&Category_Code=INCO

Ideally, one would be doing this while doing the hood vent(s) so you get at least a little air flow over the top. I know VW uses a lot of sidemount IC's which get very little flow and it seems to work for them.

I don't see where this would hurt intake temps any as the CAP carries high pressure, high temperature air in a metal pipe :)

The only concerns I can think of are:
1) hood clearance [duh!]...so I tried to find a small IC
2) pressure drop for the system
3) overkill [especially if you have a FMIC already]
4) mounting location [use the old CAP mounting holes with brackets?]

Again, only an idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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I am not fully understanding your idea...

You want to mount that tiny IC in your link on your charge pipe coming out of your turbo and then somehow butcher your hood to vent it to keep it cold?

If that is an addition to an already FMIC aftermarket, it would do nothing for you.

If you added it into the stock system it would do nothing as the "heat soak" is still coming from your crappy IC system before the intake manifold.

That seems like it would not work unless you ran JUST that and routed it directly into your intake manifold to minimize travel of "cold" air...

... or you could just buy a tune
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If by butchering the hood you mean the hood vents that many folks here utilize, then yes. :D

The idea is to pull some heat off the initial charged air before main intercooler(s), whether that be stock or FMIC. So instead of the charge pipe, you have a short pipe from the turbo to a small IC over the engine, then another short pipe to the main IC(s). In essence, you'd run a small IC in series with the larger one(s).

Again, with a FMIC, this may do nothing as the FMIC gets the job done by itself. Or, the extra IC could make the turbo work too much and shorten its life. Hence, why I'm asking the intelligent R folks here. I know there are some engineers on here.

Still interested in opinions on the second link to the big IC with endtanks on top and bottom...
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Ok, i'm just full of questions today.

Would an IC like this work to shorten overall piping if the inlet/outlet were both on top? http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchan...de=CXR&Product_Code=IC0053&Category_Code=INCO
It could theoretically help with not interfering with RKelly style CAI's. I'm thinking this specific IC is too long for our cars though...

I'm not familiar enough with all the bits and pieces in that part of the car since I've never ripped it out before. Forgive my ignorance!
 

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Ideally, one would be doing this while doing the hood vent(s) so you get at least a little air flow over the top. I know VW uses a lot of sidemount IC's which get very little flow and it seems to work for them.
Not trying to sound mean when I say this but, think about what you're saying...a hood vent is exactly that, a vent. Therefore it is only "venting" hot air from the engine bay, as opposed to a hood duct/scoop which would therefore feed cooler ambient air into the bay.

I don't know if users of these hood vents are under the impression that they are guiding air into the engine bay or what...but I feel like there is often some confusion to their purpose. The aerodynamics of the front fascia directs air up and over the surface of the hood, and until someone provides a wind tunnel test, I'm sticking with my hypothesis.

Regardless, I applaud your willingness to brainstorm and put out ideas for new modifications.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Not trying to sound mean when I say this but, think about what you're saying...a hood vent is exactly that, a vent. Therefore it is only "venting" hot air from the engine bay, as opposed to a hood duct/scoop which would therefore feed cooler ambient air into the bay.

I don't know if users of these hood vents are under the impression that they are guiding air into the engine bay or what...but I feel like there is often some confusion to their purpose. The aerodynamics of the front fascia directs air up and over the surface of the hood, and until someone provides a wind tunnel test, I'm sticking with my hypothesis.

Regardless, I applaud your willingness to brainstorm and put out ideas for new modifications.
Yes, it's a vent that lets hot air out, cooling the engine bay to lower temps. Also, the air inside the CAP is hotter than even the unvented engine bay [or so it's been said many times here], so you should get at least a little heat dissipation without vents, and better dissipation with vents. For those not running a 2nd RKelley, you could use a scoop and tube to run cool air from the passenger foglight vent to this CAP IC and probably do a decent job of cooling it down.

Thoughts?
 

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Unless you have a hood scoop like STi otherwise I don't know how you can induct direct cool air into your top mount intercooler.
Hood vents can evacuate hot air out of the engine bay but it doesn't induct air into your engine bay.
If you want custom work a reverse intercooler would actually more beneficial than a top mount.

You seems to have lots of worry about over heating or engine bay temperature.
You can just remove the engine bay trim and hot air will just evacuate from there.
And it's free too.
 

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Yes, it's a vent that lets hot air out, cooling the engine bay to lower temps. Also, the air inside the CAP is hotter than even the unvented engine bay [or so it's been said many times here], so you should get at least a little heat dissipation without vents, and better dissipation with vents. For those not running a 2nd RKelley, you could use a scoop and tube to run cool air from the passenger foglight vent to this CAP IC and probably do a decent job of cooling it down.

Thoughts?
You have a lower engine bay temp.
BUT the air that's supposingly cooling down your intercooler also have been heat up by the engine bay temp.
Which is lower temp? Street running cool air or your engine bay temp?
Also why would you want to run a fog light vent to your intercooler?
Your front lower grille not bigger than the for light grille?
Your ideas are very creative but you are thinking at the wrong direction.
The reason why lower engine temp is better is because you want to keep the intake air temp as low as possible.
You should concentrate on how to lower your intake air temp instead of lower your engine bay temp.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm not worried about it more than I'm just trying to outsmart it :D

found these too. Could be nice for those going with the custom charge air pipe. I think R.Photo had posted a pic of these before but I never thought about it too much.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pre-Interco...ies&hash=item19cdf32e2d&vxp=mtr#ht_2221wt_982

These are much cheaper and much easier to fit atop the engine. If I'm feeling adventurous, I may just try to make a CAP with two of these on it and see how it goes :D
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You have a lower engine bay temp.
BUT the air that's supposingly cooling down your intercooler also have been heat up by the engine bay temp.
Which is lower temp? Street running cool air or your engine bay temp?
Also why would you want to run a fog light vent to your intercooler?
Your front lower grille not bigger than the for light grille?
Your ideas are very creative but you are thinking at the wrong direction.
The reason why lower engine temp is better is because you want to keep the intake air temp as low as possible.
You should concentrate on how to lower your intake air temp instead of lower your engine bay temp.
I think you may be misunderstanding me a bit, and I know I'm talking alot without any visual aids here. I'll try to sketch a mockup of some of my ideas tomorrow.

I'm not trying to replace the current intercoolers in the R. What I'm trying to do is get rid of the hot temp inside the charge air pipe. Under high boost, charged air can hit 350+deg in some cars [don't know exact #'s for our cars, but I'm sure it's well in excess of 250 degrees]. While the car is moving, the underhood temps are much lower as the ambient air "cools" it down, probably between 150-180 degrees; still pretty hot but not as hot as the charged air in the pipe.

What I'm proposing is replacing the charged air pipe with either a very small block intercooler that would fit under the hood or a finned hotside pipe. This would allow some heat from the charged air to be cooled before the main intercooler, reducing heat soak [that's the idea anyway].

Extra ideas I had for this were implementing the hood vents to keep the engine bay cooler, thus a higher difference in temps between the charged air and the engine bay. Also a 2" shop hose [and funnel] like the one used in the popular RKelly kit could be snaked from the passenger foglight vent and be positioned below the finned pipe or "pseudo top mount IC" to blow ambient air across it, with greater effect at higher speeds.

Hope that clears up some confusion. Again, these are just brainstorms at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The ic'd charge pipe or the finned one??
 

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Your trying to reinvent the wheel with something other than round. It's nice to see someone excited, but the mods we have work a specific way for a reason. Get them, then start to fiddle with other stuff. How about putting your brain to work on running a fuel cooler or something that hasn't been mass produced?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm always down on coming up with new ideas for things.

The nice thing about work on the intake is there's little chance I'll blow something up or screw my engine over permanently.

A fuel cooler is getting into territory I'm not necessarily comfortable with, as if something does go wrong, the potential damage is much higher. I'll leave that to the folks who know their cars better than I do.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I am really curious about that cxracing IC that has the endtanks on top and bottom [top inlet, bottom outlet, iirc]. This one: http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant...gory_Code=INCO [the link is being picky right now so I think this is the one]

Anyone know if this would work well in our cars??
 

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I think you may be misunderstanding me a bit, and I know I'm talking alot without any visual aids here. I'll try to sketch a mockup of some of my ideas tomorrow.

I'm not trying to replace the current intercoolers in the R. What I'm trying to do is get rid of the hot temp inside the charge air pipe. Under high boost, charged air can hit 350+deg in some cars [don't know exact #'s for our cars, but I'm sure it's well in excess of 250 degrees]. While the car is moving, the underhood temps are much lower as the ambient air "cools" it down, probably between 150-180 degrees; still pretty hot but not as hot as the charged air in the pipe.

What I'm proposing is replacing the charged air pipe with either a very small block intercooler that would fit under the hood or a finned hotside pipe. This would allow some heat from the charged air to be cooled before the main intercooler, reducing heat soak [that's the idea anyway].

Extra ideas I had for this were implementing the hood vents to keep the engine bay cooler, thus a higher difference in temps between the charged air and the engine bay. Also a 2" shop hose [and funnel] like the one used in the popular RKelly kit could be snaked from the passenger foglight vent and be positioned below the finned pipe or "pseudo top mount IC" to blow ambient air across it, with greater effect at higher speeds.

Hope that clears up some confusion. Again, these are just brainstorms at this point.
But why would you want to IC the chargepipe?
You already have an IC that will do the job.
You just need to IC the air that's before your throttle body.
You don't need to worry about temp. inside the charge pipe.
The chargepipe is still just a pipe before the intercooler so by adding another cooler at the charge pipe you are running two intercoolers while one can't get direct air.

Besides, hot air travels faster than cold one so your turbo spools up faster.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
That's why I'm liking the finned charge pipe idea better now that I know the parts exist. Actually hot air takes up more space than cooler air. Air travels at the same speed regardless of temp, so the turbo doesn't really care what temp, and the pressure the turbo produces in the charge pipe wouldn't be affected by the temp of the air [not to any significant degree, anyways]. The heat the turbo produces is a byproduct of the turbo/exhaust, not the product [which is pressurized air]. If there were such things as a cold running turbo, it would be vastly superior as far as intake temps go, and intercoolers would be needless :D
 

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Pressurized air is why it is hot.

Imagine taking 10 cubic feet of air. The amount of energy stored in that area is relative to the temperature. Now compress it into 1 cubic foot. It now has all that same energy compressed into a smaller area, which causes the temperature to skyrocket.

You ever notice a can of air gets super cold when you spray it? The compressed gas is at ambient temperature, as it is released it expands and the temps drop.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Right, but much of the heat also comes from the fact that the turbo itself is very hot, since the turbo uses hot exhaust gases and has high friction from the high rotational velocity of the impeller. Compression alone is not the source of all the heat, and I would dare say its not the major source of the heat. The turbo is the source of the heat. The air is hot mostly from the turbo, not because it's being compressed.

I am quite aware of the principle of adiabatic cooling as well. Works well in forming clouds and all, or using a cold can to wake up a sleeping roommate ;)

I'm not trying to argue with you here. I'm just saying that the hot air is hot because the turbo itself gets red hot, and that cooling it while its in the charge pipe won't decrease the pressure any in the system. In fact, it could allow a FMIC to get intake temps even closer to ambient. I know we're talking a matter of a few degrees here, but every little bit does help.
 
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