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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hi everyone.<br>i'm having a custom 3'' downpipe + 3'' race cat made for my car. so the first half of the exhaust system upgrade will be done as of tomorrow hopefully:)<br>i have 2 questions though :<br>1 - i already have a superchip tuning on my ecu. do i still need software adjustment for the down pipe + cat or will it work fine with the current chip?<br>2 - gas mileage... what kind of effect will this upgrade have on my mileage do you think?<br>thanks & all the best,
 

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Re: downpipe + ecu (Serdar-S60T5)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Serdar-S60T5</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hi everyone.<br>i'm having a custom 3'' downpipe + 3'' race cat made for my car. so the first half of the exhaust system upgrade will be done as of tomorrow hopefully:)<br>i have 2 questions though :<br>1 - i already have a superchip tuning on my ecu. do i still need software adjustment for the down pipe + cat or will it work fine with the current chip?<br>2 - gas mileage... what kind of effect will this upgrade have on my mileage do you think?<br>thanks & all the best,</TD></TR></TABLE><p>you will need to have your ECU updated for that current stage so it can compensate for increased ability to flow, otherwise you may experience detonation.<p>gas mileage has the potential to increase because most tuners tend to lower the A/F mixture just a tad to gain a few ponies, thus saving you some fuel, but as most people report, you will not notice any increase because you are enjoying the newly found power <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"><p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: downpipe + ecu (phuz)

thanks phuz...<br>if you don't mind, can you make a brief explanation of "detonation" ?<br>(pardon my ignorance)
 

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Re: downpipe + ecu (Serdar-S60T5)

detonation (aka knock or pinging) is the ignition of your gases in the cylinder before the spark plug has a chance to fire. the reason that it is so bad is because its not a regulated burn and usually ignites in a non-uniform fashion which causes damage to the top or sides of the piston...maybe rings too. <p>it is a result of too much boost (ie, boost spikes from adding a downpipe and exhaust without a proper ECU tune), too lean fuel mixture, poor octane rating, etc.<p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: downpipe + ecu (phuz)

ok i got it now, thanks a lot man... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>well, superchips is asking for additional payment for the software upgrade,<br>in the amount of US$400.- <p>i'll have to check out the new set up first and then make up my mind i guess. <p>is there even the slightest chance that the boost will increase only very moderately and that the current chip will react to a certain point to support it with sufficient fuel ? or is there no way?
 

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Re: downpipe + ecu (Serdar-S60T5)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Serdar-S60T5</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>is there even the slightest chance that the boost will increase only very moderately and that the current chip will react to a certain point to support it with sufficient fuel ? or is there no way?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>there is always a "chance" but the question is: are you willing to take it at the risk of ruining your engine?<p>you should start by asking superchips if the tune that you are going to buy will support a downpipe and exhaust setup. if it does, then you don't need to spend the extra $400....but if it doesn't, i would suggest you save the $ to do it right. <p>i have taken shortcuts in the past and got greedy with power in order to save a few $. guess where i ended up? in a sheetz parking lot on a friday night waiting for a tow truck...spent the next few months rebuilding the engine. NOT fun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
+ 1 last question :<p>how does the downpipe effect pre-boost rpm performance?<br>say, between 0 - 3000 rpms... any significant loss of torque in that area due to decrease in back-pressure?<p>the reason i'm asking is that the exhaust upgrades usually make very significant loss of low end torque in naturally aspirated cars. so i was wondering what happens to our cars with the dp and race cat, before the turbo kicks in?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: downpipe + ecu (phuz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>there is always a "chance" but the question is: are you willing to take it at the risk of ruining your engine?<br>you should start by asking superchips if the tune that you are going to buy will support a downpipe and exhaust setup. if it does, then you don't need to spend the extra $400....but if it doesn't, i would suggest you save the $ to do it right. <br>i have taken shortcuts in the past and got greedy with power in order to save a few $. guess where i ended up? in a sheetz parking lot on a friday night waiting for a tow truck...spent the next few months rebuilding the engine. NOT fun!</TD></TR></TABLE><br>i get your point... <br>the superchips tuning is a standard chip program for the T5. the superchips dealer in istanbul is not really sure whether it will support this upgrade or not, because my downpipe is a custom one we're yet to see, and superchips can not make guesses about upgrades... he says that after the dp, we'll have to check the boost pressure to see if it peaks above the 1 bar (14.5 psi) level which it held steady till redline before. and if we see that it does, then we'll have to ask superchips london to send a new software program which supports this new boost level.
 

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im not sure that i understand the correlation between decreased backpressure and loss in torque. essentially that is saying you are allowing the engine to breath more freely, but its losing power?<p>the bigger downpipe and exhaust allows the turbo to spool faster and you will notice a slight increase of transient HP...thats all.<p>if superchips is unsure about this, i would be very cautious with how you proceed. can they tune this car "on the fly" ?<br>if so, i would suggest that they start with their normal tune and closely monitor the A/F ratio and make adjustments as necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: (phuz)

hey again, <br>the correlation between the backpressure and the low end torque is that in a naturally aspirated (non turbo) engine, a certain amount of backpressure is in fact needed in the exhaust system, in order to keep the right amount of air (and fuel) to avoid detonation, especially if the ecu and the injectors are stock. <br>cuz when you take away the backpressure, automatically you're letting out burned gas faster, easier and earlier than usual. thus you gain space and start to take more fresh air than the car is used to, into the combustion chamber. if the ecu and possibly the injectors are not upgraded accordingly to supply more fuel especially down low, your a/f will be running too lean, again especially down low, where the ecu can't keep up with the faster incoming air. <br>this will result in the loss of some low end torque, but it will maximize your high end performance, where your fuel supply is already sufficient, but where your n/a engine is now starting to beg for more air.... <br> <br>that's why the downpipe doesn't work on the n/a engines... and that's also why i wondered about our pre-boost torque... <p>i wish they could do that my friend... superchips turkey is not half of what you're assuming they are. they do not even have a dyno. and they don't have a wide band sensor to measure a/f ratio... all they do is, they ask you about your mods, they take out your ecu and send the readings to london, and they wait for london guys to send them back the upgraded software, which then they install on the car and wish you good luck. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> <BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Serdar-S60T5 at 7:51 AM 7-18-2006</i>
 

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Re: (Serdar-S60T5)

you dont have to worry about that.<p>the turbo keeps enough backpressure by itself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: (phuz)

thanks again... <p>just now i noticed that you've been online for the last couple of hours and your local time shows 07:48 a.m. at the moment. don't you ever sleep man? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: (Serdar-S60T5)

Set your clock to YOUR correct local time. his local time was 10:00 in the AM
 

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Re: (Serdar-S60T5)

just find out if they will do tuning on the fly.<p>if they are not sure whether the superchips ecu upgrade (stage 1 i assume) will support downpipe/exhaust, then im not really sure what the extra $400 is for.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Serdar-S60T5</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks again... <p>just now i noticed that you've been online for the last couple of hours and your local time shows 07:48 a.m. at the moment. don't you ever sleep man? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"></TD></TR></TABLE><p>fix your clock. I only woke up at 7:30am today <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: (phuz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just find out if they will do tuning on the fly.<br>if they are not sure whether the superchips ecu upgrade (stage 1 i assume) will support downpipe/exhaust, then im not really sure what the extra $400 is for.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>they are saying that once i pay the 400 dollars, they will give me 1 week during which i may ask them as many times as i like to change the software. so i will have the chance to try and re-tune over and over again till i am fully satisfied with the performance. at first it sounded like a generous offer but then i was like " man, why don't they just come up with a nice standard program that supports a dp and an exhaust system ?? "<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fix your clock. I only woke up at 7:30am today <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"></TD></TR></TABLE><br>oops <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"><br>ok i did fix my time settings. thnx.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
UPDATE

hello again,<p>i borrowed a boost gauge from a friend and did a quick run. <p>before the downpipe and race cat, the boost peaked at 1.1 bars (16 psi) and held 1 bar (14.5 psi) steady till redline. <p>now it peaks at 1.4 - 1.5 bars (20 - 22 psi) and holds at 1.2 bars (17.5 psi) steady till 5000 rpm and then drops to 1.1 bars (16 psi) between 5000-6000 rpms. <p>the peak numbers troubled me a little... my car is a geartronic and the boost peaks just when the gears are shifting and then drops to normal level.<p>i shared this new information with superchips and they are emailing their london office. they will get back to me soon. <p>what do you think?
 

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Re: UPDATE (Serdar-S60T5)

this is why you need to have the car re-tuned after the additions.<p>FYI, most dyno shops charge $150 / hour to tune your car on the dyno. I think $400 / week is good for unlimited re-tunes during that period.<p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: UPDATE (phuz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is why you need to have the car re-tuned after the additions.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>you mean a re-tune can normalize my boost peaks? <br>but superchips guys are saying they cannot do anything about the peaks or otherwise they'll have to decrease my steady boost too.... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/confused.gif" BORDER="0"> <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>phuz</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FYI, most dyno shops charge $150 / hour to tune your car on the dyno. I think $400 / week is good for unlimited re-tunes during that period. </TD></TR></TABLE><br>i agree. but then these people don't even have a dyno... <br>so all i will be basing my decisions on is my butt dyno... oh well... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif" BORDER="0"> <p><br>
 

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it is IMPERATIVE that you get your car on a dyno to have it tuned properly.<p>at the areas where you have boost spikes, you are going to make sure that there is extra fuel so you dont have detonation. if your spikes are that high, and you don't have a proper tune, you are almost certain to experience problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: (phuz)

hey. thanks<br>looks like you have become my personal mod advisor <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>superchips has sent an upgraded software according to the information we gave them today... i'll have it installed tomorrow. i hope it works fine... <br>
 
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