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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been pondering an aftermarket turbo for my R. I have been talking with a lot of people and in one of those conversations I came across this GT2871

Based on the ATP website the turbo is available with a turbo housing A/R of .82 and a K24_K26 turbo housing style. Other Specs include:

Turbine
-Wheel: 53.85mm w/ 76 trim
-Housing: .86 or .64 ar
-Maps

Compressor
-Wheel: 71mm w/ 56 trim
-Housing: .60 ar

I wanted to know how hard it would be to get this to work on the R? Since it has the K24_K26 housing will this turbo bolt up to the stock manifold?

Now comes the conjecture; if this does bolt-on what other essential components would be needed for this upgrade. I know a tune is definitely in order but what about new injectors, oil and water lines, wastegate, etc. I am hoping this can remain a discussion on the merits of this turbo or a turbo that can easily (to an extent) be upgraded on the R.

To some degree a lot of this has been discussed before (http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=65830).

I do plan on calling ATP at some point but I thought I would be better off calling after most of the valid questions had been raised and/or answered.

Thanks, http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Modified by Rangeball at 1:41 PM 10-24-2006
 

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Re: Discussion of aftermarket turbos (Rangeball)

Will bolt up but it is missing an internal wastegate so the plus of bolting it up is put to waste.
Also, I believe, the neck of the turbine is longer which means the turbo will be situated further from the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Discussion of aftermarket turbos (Johann)

Quote, originally posted by Johann »
Will bolt up but it is missing an internal wastegate so the plus of bolting it up is put to waste.
Also, I believe, the neck of the turbine is longer which means the turbo will be situated further from the engine.

Excuse the ignorance of this question, BUT would it be possible for them to build one with an internal wastegate?

With the longer neck the downpipe would have to be sacrificed, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: Discussion of aftermarket turbos (Johann)

Ok, disregard my previous response. Since it does not have an internal wastegate the setup would need a BOV and the appropriate hoses. Say ~$300.00.

With the GT2871 (R) I am almost positive the stock injectors can be used. So pending that the longer neck of the turbo fits into the bay this turbo can be used with a new tune and a BOV. Correct?

Bueller, Bueller, ...

Edit-
If you search http://www.HowStuffWorks.com for "Internal Wastegate" the second response is How Sex Works.


Wastegate explained: Without a wastegate, the amount of boost that a turbocharger creates varies with the pressure of the engine's exhaust. This happens because exhaust pressure varies with relation to the engine's speed (measured in RPM's). This implies that as an engine reaches higher RPM's, increasing amounts of boost will be created by the turbocharger. The problem with this is that an engine can only accomodate a given amount of boost. Most stock engines are only meant to take about 10 PSI if not less. In order to regulate the amount of boost that comes into the engine, a wastegate acts as a door only allowing a given amount of exhaust to hit the turbocharger's exhaust turbine. Once the engine starts producing more exhaust pressure then the wastegate system will allow, a flap is opened to redirect excess exhaust away from the turbine blades. In turn, this is where a wastegate gets it's name. It's a gate to carry away waste. In order to regulate when a wastegate opens, a boost conroller can be used.

Internal Wastegate Assembly and Actuator There are two types of wastegates. The first one is an internal wastegate (First). An internal wastegate is a component on the turbo unit itself. The gate is opened via an actuator which is a diaphram type system (see second picture). Excess exhaust is then fed directly into the exhaust system. We also have what is called an external wastegate (second), unlike an internal wastegate, it is seperate from the turbo unit and does not require an actuator. Excess exhaust can either be fed into the exhaust system or it can be vented straight out and into the atmosphere. High performance set-ups typically follow the latter alternative. Most stock systems come with an internal wastegate as this set-up is better suited for low boost applications. However most aftermarket systems perform better with an seperate external wastegate assembly making it an ideal choice for those generating boost in the range of 20-30 PSI.






Modified by Rangeball at 1:55 PM 10-24-2006
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: (Helmut Ranff)

http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Modified by Rangeball at 9:52 PM 10-24-2006
 

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Re: (Rangeball)

Find out what your current A/F ratio is on the dyno and then make changes as needed. You can send it back to IPD so they can richen the tune up for you for the increased boost of the GT28R.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: (Doc GTO)

So with this turbo what would be a realistic hp range? I am under the assumption of around 400+ crank hp.
 

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Re: (Rangeball)

Go with this housing,



The problem with the ultimate gate is that the flapper lever points in the wrong direction resulting in a less desireable angle of the wastegateactuator.

See here a GT2871R with the ultimate gate, Forge actuator and dum(b)my actuator rod for fitment,

 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: (Johann)

http://********************/smile/emthup.gif Thanks Johann,

That setup will require a new manifold, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: (Johann)

In need of updating this thread. New discovery, thanks to Lucky @ IPD.

http://www.atpturbo.com/Mercha...e=FLG



Flange adapter for Volvo allowing T3 flanged (such as GT28RS, GT2871R, GT3071R, GT3076R, GT30R, GT30/40R, GT35R) turbos to bolt up to stock Volvo maniofld made for Mitsubishi TD0X turbos. Models 750, 850, V70, C70, etc.

This adapter will allow the T3 housing to work with the stock manifold.

Issue still remaining: Internal wastegate.
 

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Re: (Rangeball)

Rangeball,
I installed an ATP turbo system on my old Jetta about 5 years ago. At the time ATP was a new company and had far fewer products than they do today. As a result I had to do a fair amount of custom fabrication myself, which was complicated by the fact that it was a naturally aspirated car to begin with. They are a good company and I would recommend them.

I may be joining this conversation a little late, but I have some comments/questions for you. First let me begin by saying that I am not very familiar with a K24's boost map and its potential, so bear with me while I make some assumptions.

I assume that the stock system boosts to around 1 bar/14.5 psi, and that with the standard ECU flash (IPD) it is into the high teens possibly approaching 19 psi. I would guess that the K24 peaks out in efficiency in the low to mid 20 psi range. Which brings me to my point; The reason most of these ECU tunes don't press the boost up higher is because the engine can't handle it in its current configuration. I am talking about A/F ratios and intercooling specifically (otherwise IPD could offer the 380hp ECU tune for more $$).

So, when you look to upgade your turbo to a higher capacity unit you need to realize that you are already very close to your engines max output in its current configuration (not talking about structural capability here). You can spend a lot of money on a new turbo, and fitting it into the engine compartment (which will be a pain in the ass), but when you go to turn up the boost (with a new ECU map) you will see no real power gains , but may see faster/slower spool-up depending on the unit you choose. To get the additional power you will need better intercooling and an injection system that can support the increase in airflow. Without this you will run lean and hot and will have EGT's go through the roof, and likely burn up your turbo from the heat and engine from detonation.

Bottom line, without some substantial changes elsewhere (Injection, intercooling) you are going to spend a lot of cash and be disappointed with the result. Also realize that if you spend the money on intercooling and A/F ratio management now, you will be able to turn up the boost on the stock turbo beyond what the base flash from IPD, or whomever is currently generating (until you peak out the K24). Then it might be time for that shiny new turbo.

I hope that I have not misunderstood your project and goals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: (JAGMAN)

JAGMAN, I will attempt to answer as many of your questions as I can. This is my first turbo car so it has been a learning experience for me as well.

Reason for going with a larger turbo is the idea of doing more with less. Bigger turbo moves more air without having to increase the psi. From my understanding the R's engine is sturdy but has a few inefficencies, namely the thin walls between cylinders. Using the stock k24 to up the psi to 21-23 (from my understaning) puts a lot of stress on those walls. By using the GT28R turbo the engine is able to push more air through without uping the psi. I have also been told the GT30R may even be a better match for that philosophy but I would like to stick with the stock injectors and maintain more mid-range torque.

On the injectors, I can't exactly remember but the stock injectors are capable of handling approximately 420ish crank hp (90% duty cycle), about what the GT28R is capable of producing. Also the larger 750cc injectors cause a rough idle, atleast so I have been told.

FMIC is a definite regardless of stock turbo or upgraded turbo.

I am not qualified to answer why IPD, or others for that matter, choose the psi and hp range. I would venture to say, especially with IPD, reliablity and consistency. I currently have the IPD Stage II tune and it offers a great power range. I know when Boosted up'ed his psi on the stock turbo he ran into problems, but then you have R_Rated who I believe has stock internals (Corrected, see below) is running a GT30R with no problems, all be it thanks to IPD.

Hope that helps. I am really not qualified to answer most of those questions and I am sure I will be corrected in posts to come.

Modified by Rangeball at 10:47 AM 11-13-2006
 

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Re: (Rangeball)

I wish that I had a background in fluid dynamics so that I could speak more articulately. But the reason to go with a larger turbo is to ensure that at any engine rpm you could deliver the required volume of air. For ex., 2000 rpm @ 20psi requires less volume than 6000 rpm at the same 20psi.

A turbo pressurizes the air in the intake manifold, then the intake valves open and the air in the intake manifold rushes in to equalize the pressure between the intake manifold and cylinder. Regardless of the size of your turbo you can't get more air (volume) into the cylinder without increasing the pressure.

Your assumption is that the larger GT28/30 turbo will move a higher volume of air (which is accurate) at a given psi. Let's say that you run the GT28 at 20psi and the k24 at 20psi. When the intake valve opens the GT28 will have pressurized the intake manifold to 20 psi and will fill the cylinder with the volume of air required to reach 20psi. The k24 will also fill the cylinder to 20 psi (in this example). Though the GT28 is moving a higher volume of air into the intake manifold, pressure is what matters here(you just can't sneak in more air [volume] into the cylinder without a corresponding pressure rise).

The only thing the larger turbo will do is aid in volume for replenishment. The tell tale sign that you need a bigger turbo (one that can flow more volume) is when you are under full throttle acceleration and your boost pressure begins to decrease as rpm's rise. When this happens it is because the turbo can't keep up with the increasing volume required to maintain manifold pressure (at a given psi) because the engine is consuming more air.

Now, the GT28/30 will not have to work as hard to build pressure. For example a k24 boosting to 20psi @6000 engine rpm may require 80,000 compressor rpm to create that pressure, whereas a GT28/30 may only require 60,000 rpm to generate that pressure. This difference will be revealed by different spool up times between the two units. Keep in mind though, the bigger unit (though it flows more volume at a lower rpm) is heavier and will take longer to spool up.
 

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Re: (JAGMAN)

To clarify, there are two reasons a turbo may not be able to maintain manifold pressure as engine RPM's rise.

1: the compressor is too small and just can't move enough air (but you're not filling a big block V8 with air).

2: the compressor is operating outside of its efficiency zone. AKA a turbine/compressor can only spin so fast before the compressor starts to stall. At that point pressure will fall and the efficiency of your system is shot.

All I am saying is that a bigger turbo won't help until you've done some considerable work on the other components of your R's engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: (Rangeball)

Quote, originally posted by Rangeball »
In need of updating this thread. New discovery, thanks to Lucky @ IPD.

http://www.atpturbo.com/Mercha...e=FLG



Flange adapter for Volvo allowing T3 flanged (such as GT28RS, GT2871R, GT3071R, GT3076R, GT30R, GT30/40R, GT35R) turbos to bolt up to stock Volvo maniofld made for Mitsubishi TD0X turbos. Models 750, 850, V70, C70, etc.

This adapter will allow the T3 housing to work with the stock manifold.

Issue still remaining: Internal wastegate.

Updating; this adapter will not fit our engine. This adapter is meant for the older 4 cylinder engines. This leaves the only available option to upgrade the turbo to machine the manifold to fit the T3 turbo.

Waiting to get some more information but it looks like there should be some more options coming this summer. Will post more when I hear more.
 
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