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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, we had a modified S60R vs modified V70R race today on autobahn.<p>Power mods are something like this:<p>S60R - BSR, Iridium Plugs, CAI, BMC, SvR 3" DP, Burns 3" -> Jetex<br>V70R - RICA Stage II, FMIC, CAI, BMC, Ferrita 3" DP, Burns 3"-> Ferrita<p>First run was on the autobahn starting in 3rd gear at 60 mph with V70R about 2 car lengths in front. Drivers had radios, so they were able to coordinate starts. S60R had to hit the brakes after a few seconds to keep from rear-ending V70R. <p>Next two runs were with S60R in front. Both runs yielded same results - despite V70R getting draft benefit, S60R pulled away. By shift to 4th, S60R had pulled 4 car lengths. By shift into 5th, had pulled 12 car lengths. Due to catching up with traffic on the autobahn, could not continue much past 120 mph, but S60R was still pulling away.<p>Things to ponder...<br>S60R weighs less, but pulled away despite V70R drafting<br>Was weight not as big of a factor since race started at 60mph?<br>Does V70R have better cD at high speeds because of back end?<br>Should FMIC have helped even though temps were only 65 degrees? <p>Also worth noting, S60R with BSR has never thrown CEL, unlike both V70Rs that came back from RICA.
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R ("R" Kelly)

S60 R Cd 0.29; V70 R Cd 0.32<p>So no matter what, the S60 R is more aerodynamic. I can only assume the numbers on the S60 R are for a vehicle without the optional sport body kit. I would think that since the sport body kit is rumored to create more downforce, the Cd would be correspondingly lower. <p>Also, I have a suspicion that the SvR downpipe flows better than Ferrita. I have zero data to prove this . . . just a gut feeling after my butt dyno compared two 05 S60 R's, with with SvR, one with Ferrita.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (R Salesman)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>R Salesman</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can only assume the numbers on the S60 R are for a vehicle without the optional sport body kit. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>No body kit. <p>But maybe one of the engineers can comment on .29 vs .32 when .32 is drafting. My gut tells me drafting more than compensated for .03 difference.
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R ("R" Kelly)

Twelve carlengths??? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Something isnt right there...the V70 would have to have like D5 performance to be that far behind
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (JCviggen)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>JCviggen</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Twelve carlengths??? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Something isnt right there...the V70 would have to have like D5 performance to be that far behind</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Or, the S60R could be faster...<IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/rolleyes.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Both drivers agreed on car length distance before leaving the scene.
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R ("R" Kelly)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>"R" Kelly</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No body kit. <p>But maybe one of the engineers can comment on .29 vs .32 when .32 is drafting. My gut tells me drafting more than compensated for .03 difference.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The aforementioned Cd numbers are from Volvo. My comment about with/without the sport body kit was to indicate that I didn't know if Volvo used a S60 R with the body kit, or without, to determine their Cd numbers.<p>Quite frankly, for the V70 R to experience any appreciable drafting benefit, the nose of the vehicle would have to be within about 5 feet of the tail of the vehicle it's following. Much further back than that, and you're really getting nothing but turbulence, no help.<p>Try this little experiment and you'll see what I'm talking about. Get behind a large tractor trailer truck on the highway. Set your trip computer to the instantaneous fuel economy setting. Get closer and closer to the truck in front of you. You'll be surprised at <I>just how close</I> you have to get before fuel economy is affected. Obviously, if your fuel economy increases, you are receiving a draft benefit. And of course you have to compensate somewhat for variations in elevation.<p>Also, anyone who is a serious road cyclist can tell you that you have to get <I>real</I> close to the person in front of you to get a draft benefit. Anything more than about 3 feet back, and you're not getting any benefit.<p>Anyways . . . point is that I seriously doubt the V70 R was getting any draft benefit whatsoever. To eliminate that variable (if possible), runs should be conducted on a three lane highway, one car in the left most lane, one car in the right most lane, starting parallel to one another. That should eliminate draft/turbulance altogether.<p>Nevertheless . . . interesting results. Thanks for taking the time to do them!<p>PS -- maybe I overlooked this, but was the V70 R a manual as well? If so, shifting efficiency could be another variable. Either way, it looks like the S60 R was just plain quicker. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R ("R" Kelly)

All things being equal an S60R is roughly a second faster from ~60 to 100 mph compared with a V.<br>0-125 the difference is near 2 seconds or even more than 2 seconds.<p>Comparing my own V with my S the differences were along these lines. An '05 S60R I have driven did about the same numbers compared to my '04 S60R.<p>This goes stock vs stock, I think it is fair to say this goes for pretty much equal tuning also.<p>Equal meaning no CEL. <p>Both cars mentioned in Kelly's post appear to have issues in the intake plumbing. One even popped a hose while on the dyno. <p>What is known from one car is that the fault code indicates boost leaking so the ECU is probably using replacement values in some area's while the light is on.<br>In other words, totally useless to post these findings at this moment although I would expect an S to be a tad faster.
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (R Salesman)

Well it's crazy how many factors can be involved here, even fuel quality if <br>both cars were not using the same gas bought form the same station, <br>the temp of the fuel, and so much more... <br>Beyond a gaggle of other details...<p>An IC or heat exchanger is going to play much more of a factor if <br>starting from a stop or doing roll and go from 10 mph. <br>It was for the most part taken out as a factor for these runs.<p>If this race was for money, and I was R', I'd of wanted the same matchup. <br>Good job! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (R Salesman)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>R Salesman</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Quite frankly, for the V70 R to experience any appreciable drafting benefit, the nose of the vehicle would have to be within about 5 feet of the tail of the vehicle it's following. Much further back than that, and you're really getting nothing but turbulence, no help.<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>OK, my assumptions about drafting were based on others assertions back when I tried pulling away from Doug's '05. I had CAI, BMC, DP, exhaust, but was unable to pull away. JC mentioned whatever hp benefit my mods were giving me (15hp?) was lost because he was able to draft off of me. But Doug was generally 1-2 car lengths back when we started, so may he wasn't getting any.<p>What was surprising for me is that I thought the addition of a FMIC plus a RICA Stage II that is "optimized" for DP & exhaust would make the V70R quicker. <p>Maybe it was the wheels/tires on S60R that were 11 lbs lighter per wheel than those on V70R? There was that rumor about rotating mass being 6-8 times harder to accelerate per wheel...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Johann)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Johann</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is known from one car is that the fault code indicates boost leaking so the ECU is probably using replacement values in some area's while the light is on.<br>In other words, totally useless to post these findings at this moment although I would expect an S to be a tad faster.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Was V70R showing CEL when when the race happened? <br>Are you sure that the intermittent CEL on the V70R that raced was the same "boost leaking CEL" as on the other V70R? <br>Are you saying that an S60R with non-optimized for DP BSR PPC has equal tuning as a RICA Stage II with an FMIC?
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R ("R" Kelly)

From what I know that R was still showing a CEL, last contact yesterday. The other one the CEL went away yesterday and the code was read from the car indicating a boost leak.<p>
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Dzljet)

The V70R mentioned was me.<p>My CEL went off yesterday after a period of somewhat normal driving. Today I made a 100 mile road trip to take classes at another base. I was driving very fast, in the range of 120 to 140 mph the whole way and peaked at ~160 a couple of times. At my lunch break when I started the car the CEL light was on again and stayed on through our runs.<p>The CEL came on with Bryans car also which is my twin (same car and mods) then soon went off with varied driving. He went to the dealer yesterday and had the codes read. I don't have time to go to the dealer and have my codes read so it is a safe assumption that mine and Bryans codes are the same. As Johann mentioned they point to a possible leak in our intake hoses, probably due to our not so good hose clamps supplied by Alamo with the FMIC kit. We have much better ones on order.<p>I could tell while doing the above mentioned runs, the rocket type of power just was not evident as when I first got it tuned at RICA. I can say I was probably lacking some boost which is why I got beat so bad as mentioned above. Let me get some good clamps on my hoses and I want a rematch!!!!!<p>Kelly post that video!!!! Still this G-tech run was not too shabby but should have been better with my mods. Very disaappointing. I did a 0-100+mph run and smoked the front wheels on launch with zero bog. I pulled a 5.374 0-60mph and a 1/4 mile in 14.02 at 98.38mph. This is only the third time I've launched this way and I was way surprised. Roen at RICA said the stock ECU, on the 6MT has a torque limiter in 1st, and his tune removes it. Now I believe it with this smoking launch. Probably won't do a launch like this again, so good Kelly got it on camera.<p>Again, in all fairness, I want a re-match!!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (speedemon)

Jesse-<p>Dude, I thought you said CEL had gone out. I would have put that as a BIG disclaimer if I had known it was on during runs. I was trying to figure out how aerodynamics had made such a difference, didn't make much sense to me, I expected you to be faster than the S.<p>Video of speedemon's 1/4 mile run, note all 4 tires smoking at launch (hard to see). Apologize for voiceover at end... calling him on radio.<p><A HREF="http://ss.otheron.com/rkelly/video/100_5179.MOV" TARGET="_blank">http://ss.otheron.com/rkelly/video/100_5179.MOV</A>
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (speedemon)

Het Jesse, glad you jumped in! I didn't want to say to much since it's your party but I simply needed to reply because of the mentioned issues at this point.<p>We know Kelly can become a bit cocky in situations like this so I needed to slow him down a bit.. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>Glad you are asking for a rematch after the problems have been solved although I still think the S can come out in front, a bit weather dependant so If you do wait for hot weather and your IC will hopefully get you in front.. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> <p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>"R" Kelly</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>Are you saying that an S60R with non-optimized for DP BSR PPC has equal tuning as a RICA Stage II with an FMIC?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Equal, what is equal. I have had 2 PPC's on my Volvo's in the past One on my S60T5 and one on my V70R. With the V70R the timed numbers were disappointing. After changing to RICA there was about 1.5 second gain I believe it was compared to the PPC between 62-125 mph. The main difference was the low end torque. I don't know what has been changed with the PPC in the last 2 years. I do know that at the time the PPC software used a lot of advanced timing which can make it fast but it also started retarding timing pretty fast. With the current weather it will not be to much of a problem but when temps rise it might become an issue. <br>Also you are using Aral 100 I assume after reading that German pump thread of yours, the 100 octane will help you maintain the power longer, question is how long. <br>At this point the FMIC will show it's real effect. With the current weather the stock IC does fairly well so an FMIC wont show to much of an advantage.<p>I really think for this race the CEL was the deal breaker. Last Tuesday I have driven Jesse's car as a passenger and I think it performed real strong but mostly real fluid, or linear all the way to redline. I was really impressed with the performance and real scared all those Mcdonald's drinks would fly over me.. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Johann)

What are we doing Pinks with Volvos?<p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/screwy.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Sorry maybe the new S40 has created this youth movement<p>Wagons drag racing with CEL's on even
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Johann)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Johann</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Equal, what is equal....</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Johann, if you haven't figured out by now, the reality of tuning this car does not sit well with typical American thinking.<p>If we put DP on, it must make us this much faster.<br>If we put Exhaust on, it must make us this much faster. <br>If we put filter, CAI, etc on, it must make us this much faster.<br>One ECU clearly must be superior, and that is the one we will buy. <p>This whole bit about doing all these mods, only to have ECU maintain 300 hp is just unacceptable (both for us and the aftermarket tuners). <p>So stop raining on everyone's parade... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>btw, if jesse had said CEL was still on, wouldn't have been so "cocky", probably wouldn't have even posted this...<p>BUT, he did have a slightly quicker 0-60 time on the G-Tech than me while I had a slightly faster 1/4 mile time and trap speed, so no indication of problems there. (course I bogged really bad and he got a cool spin).
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Helmut Ranff)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Helmut Ranff</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know why Johann is frustrated just consider the tuning on his S70<p>People with no tuning and a G tech are surely to frustrate him</TD></TR></TABLE><p>The frustration of tuning is: "you are used to the +30hp within 3weeks and are "bored" thus again". THAT'S why I don't believe in "this" kind of tuning....30hp , 50hp (and torque-raise in relation ofcourse... it's not a big deal). IMHO you better save that money and buy something stock really faster next time...for us (R owners) I think of Porsche turbo or F430 ...with just M5 or RS6 you are bored again within a month otherwise!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Helmut Ranff)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Helmut Ranff</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People with no tuning and a G tech are surely to frustrate him</TD></TR></TABLE><p>People can bag on a G-Tech all they want, can bitch about 12" of rollout etc, but the fact is it shows (or in most cases doesn't show) ACTUAL performance increases from mods, from different tires, from weather. <p>Dyno number don't really mean all that much IMO, since they are just PREDICTIONS of how a car will perform in the real world. G-Tech shows actual performance. And dynos CAN NOT simulate real world conditions IMO, no matter how many fans or how much load they simulate. As long as you do multiple runs, and keep your settings consistent, G-Tech is a great way to show performance increases/decreases.<p>Again, I have no problems with people saying I shouldn't have 12" of rollout when I do runs, don't care. But that isn't the point, I have ALWAYS used 12" of rollout, and will continue to. <p>The following shows an S60R, on the same road, same day, same temps, before and after BSR PPC tune (all runs within 30 min of each other).<p><IMG SRC="http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7130/bsrvsstock7ac.jpg" BORDER="0"><p>This shows in real world, quite clearly, what performance gains the BSR gave on this car.
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (JARMO)

Completely agree Antwerpen <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/embeer.gif" BORDER="0"> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/embeer.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: BSR S60R vs RICA Stage II + FMIC V70R (Helmut Ranff)

another...few? <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0">
 
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