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Bowers & Wilkins vs Harman Kardon... at lower volumes

76K views 54 replies 30 participants last post by  Walter Kopchak  
#1 ·
Maybe this is a me-problem, but I'm sure my final spec will be changing up to the day I order my XC60--a day I expect to see soon :).

My latest struggle is with deciding between the B&W and HK sound systems. I believe I've read every relevant thread on these forums, but I'm still not sure which way to go. I have no doubt that B&W is better, but I can't determine whether it's better by enough to justify the expense (and I totally get that this is subjective). I'd have to stretch my budget to make this add-on, and part of me thinks "I'd rather add the $3k to my home theater budget".

Anyways, something that I can't find a great answer on is: How do B&W and HK compare at medium-level volumes? In my current vehicle, I typically keep music between 40% and 60% of max volume. If the out-performance of B&W is only noticeable at much higher volumes, I won't be hearing it.
 
#3 · (Edited)
B&W is a great system, it will be very noticeable at all levels, frankly it shines at low levels. I think there are better systems out there for blaring music, but I think Volvo presumes that's not their primary customer base. B&W as a company focuses on sound clarity and not changing the color with the speakers. The processors with the system do have the concert hall and now jazz club settings to inflect some sound, but they can be turned off if that's not your thing.

While all the systems do it, I find H&K to have the most aggressive speed compensation, and for some unholy reason, Volvo does not make this adjustable. Drive them both around in stop and go at the volumes you'd like and hear if it will drive you crazy or not.

I have a pair of 607s in my home and they are beautiful and have a great sound for their small size. MSRP on those is $699...that's with no amp, no processor, and 4 cones total... so spending $3k in your car actually goes further than it does in your home... and depending on your schedule, you might get to enjoy it more too.
 
#6 ·
HK is the minimum I'd recommend to anyone who uses their car audio system. B&W is a worthwhile upgrade if it's in your budget.
I second this. Our 2017 Inscription has the standard system. HK wasn't standard on the Inscriptions at the time. After having a loaner with HK, I can say HK is much better than standard, and not terribly far off from B&W. I had B&W in my former 2020, and have it in my 2021). But the gap between HK and B&W is worth it, IMO. My 2021 is a very nice place to be with the sound on [emoji3]

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
#7 ·
B&W no question. It's not even close and $3000 is cheap for a space you'll be in many hours of many days. For the same reason, we didn't cheap out on our mattress either. Improve your quality of live, for it's short and sweet.
 
#8 ·
Just because I can doesn't mean I should. Paying $3+k more to listen to old-times radio shows, the news and/or sports didn't make sense to me. For me, I enjoy taking my V on long drives. luxuriating in the comfort of its seats and the safety of its construction. It's a very nice place to be, talking with my wife as the miles slip away.

With this said, particularly for people who really value high quality audio systems, I can definitely see the advantage of buying the upgraded unit. It really sounds great!
 
#35 · (Edited)
I am with you on not getting the B&W system. Our XC-90 is my wife's vehicle and it has an HK system and she listens to talk radio stations and not any music, never. We recently placed an order for a 2021 XC-60 and discussed getting the B&W but in the end decided it would be a total waste of money for us. Also, we are both retired so we don't spend much time in our vehicles as in our working days. Even when listening to music (if we take her vehicle somewhere and I'm driving) we never have it to loud so we can carry on a normal conversation and hear emergency vehicles before they are on top of us blasting their horn.
 
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#9 ·
My mom has HK in her S60, I have B&W in mine. Mom got her car first, and I was really impressed with the HK. It has excellent sound staging, and regardless of volume the sound is not distorted and it is well balanced. The bass is full and balanced, but it doesn't quite have the design to make the music "thump" (if that's your thing, like it is mine). HK is way better than many systems, and it is high quality for sure.

But.......B&W is completely on a different level. Yes, at low volume the difference it noticeable. A lot noticeable. The real key here is the clarity and sound staging. The music is true to life, you can hear every instrument in every location, and event he smallest nuance of sound can be heard. Of course, tire and wind noise can hide some of that at speed, so sometimes the full appreciation is best experienced at a stoplight or just sitting in your garage. You really need high-quality audio sources to make the most of it, so if you plan on just listening to FM or SXM you won't experience the true difference between HK and B&W, the difference then is much harder to appreciate.

The B&W bass notes are tight...I mean tight, crisp and completely undistorted. The front woofers in the door just pound, and the rear sub fills the cabin with low frequencies in a way the HK can not. At high volumes the entire door panels can literally be seen moving, the armrest door pulls literally will move back and forth. The right song can make the seats shake, enough to wake my iPhone from sleep and turn the screen on if I set it on the seat. You feel the music as much as listen to it with the B&W.

$3,200 is actually a bargain when you consider what you are getting, but that's not to say it's cheap. Its a LOT of money for a car upgrade, and only you can decide if it is worth it. Your listening preferences and how much of an "audiophile" you really are is something only you can decide. The biggest thing I would say is....if you get HK, will you get in the car and every time not see those aluminum speaker grills and feel "man, I should have got the B&W"? Nothing ruins the enjoyment of a new car more than getting in and every time wishing it had been ordered with a different color or configuration....it's never REALLY the car you wanted. Some people are like that, others are not.

Sometimes you can't miss something you never had, and HK is a great system. But don't be misled by some of the comments that say "oh, the two systems are not really that much different". Those people don't really fully appreciated music or are indifferent to exploring that last 20% of faithfully reproducing the music as the artist intended you to hear it. My cousin is a true audiophile (his iPhone has been sent off and the hardware changed so the quality of the connection to his $15,000 headphones is improved). He recently visited and was eager to wanted to hear the system. I queued some high bit rate dance music and some symphony tracks.....he literally looked at me with his mouth hanging open. His comment was, "This is factory!?!?".

When people that upgrade their iPhones, buy $15,000 headphones and spend more money for their home audio than the entire cost of a car are left astonished by the sound I think it's safe to say the system is "worth the money". For me, one of the most enable parts of the day is getting in the car and seeing that B&W logo looking at me across the leather dash with the nautilus speaker pointing at me, knowing that another sound experience is about to be go down.... It's often the best part of the day. Some people would laugh at that, but if you "get" music, get the B&W.
 
#10 ·
My cousin is a true audiophile (his iPhone has been sent off and the hardware changed so the quality of the connection to his $15,000 headphones is improved). He recently visited and was eager to wanted to hear the system. I queued some high bit rate dance music and some symphony tracks.....he literally looked at me with his mouth hanging open. His comment was, "This is factory!?!?".
Not counting the first two models because they are exclusive due to the use of gold and diamonds as well as the exclusive Sennheiser Orpheus headphones model for $ 55,000 I don't see any model that is close to the price of $ 15,000

I hope your cousin also uses some portable Headphone Amplifier like these models, because without this those headphones are not worth it
or
 
#13 ·
I recognize opinions vary and I think anyone considering a purchase should use their own ears.
My personal opinion, after owning two cars with B&W, is that it is not worth it.
I think that the bottom line is that yes, B&W does sound better, no one is saying otherwise, but if it's worth $3200, that's a question that no one can answer for anyone else. It's between you and your checkbook .
 
#19 ·
I do the same thing, quite often. I even turn on pre-conditioning because who wants to sit in a cold/hot car? I won't lie... I've also gotten pretty baked in there just enjoying the music. Sometimes it's a good thing that almost everything is closed and I have nowhere to go [emoji56].
 
#18 ·
I purchased my XC60 with harman/kardon system and wasn't satisfied with its sound first. It sounded quite good and clear with but there was no feel of bass and sub-bass. I thought the speakers should "warm up" for a while but nothing changed. I started to search for solutions to improve sound, compared my car to aftermarket system upgrade cost about $3000 and to my surprise that system sounded quite similar to my h/k system. Then some guy suggested to switch sound focus to Driver instead of All passengers and system's performance changed significantly, bass started to feel and in this mode system sounded quite similar to B&W - I compared 2 cars standing side by side. Of course B&W system has more powerful amplifier and additional tweeter on a dashboard but the difference can be heard with direct comparison of 2 cars and probably with volume above 50%.
As for myself I've ended up with installation of B&W system into my XC60 and enjoy it. I also compared it to another aftermarket system on XC60 which costs $3000+ with good speakers and amplifier by Match audio, as well as with good stealth subwoofer and professional sound tuning, and can't say that system sounds better than stock B&W. I also visited that soud studio and they rated B&W quite good and only made slight tuning of equalizer to make frequency response more flat though I can hardly hear any difference with equalizer "in-line".
117065
 
#20 ·
Thanks everyone for the amazingly detailed responses! I must admit I'm now leaning towards the B&W.

While looking for other opinions on this, I found someone who claimed that B&W audio quality over Bluetooth is noticeably worse than when using the Volvo Spotify app. Something to do with data loss over the Bluetooth link. Although, I've also read that the app sucks.

Does anyone have any first-hand experience comparing the two? How do you play your music?
 
#21 ·
Thanks everyone for the amazingly detailed responses! I must admit I'm now leaning towards the B&W.

While looking for other opinions on this, I found someone who claimed that B&W audio quality over Bluetooth is noticeably worse than when using the Volvo Spotify app. Something to do with data loss over the Bluetooth link. Although, I've also read that the app sucks.

Does anyone have any first-hand experience comparing the two? How do you play your music?
Correct, audio quality is worse over Bluetooth. But it should be a non-issue as you can connect your phone via Car Play or Android Auto and get the higher quality. Or use the Sensus spotify app directly and set to "extreme quality" in the settings.
 
#22 ·
Hi 6F...
I have the B+W system and love it but I can assure you I am NO audiophile (but I could tell the difference with this and the standard and HK systems. It's a car after all and not a concert hall, so any system will be governed by how/where you drive. I have had the same issues with Bluetooth and Spotify and completely dismissed them as a source for crap quality.
Instead I have all my music on a 500GB SSD in FLAC format (see my other posts re how I did this). I also have another 500GB SSD with Audio-books and Podcasts in MP3 format, these are in each of the 2 USB slots in the console and work just fine.
All the comments are relevant to cost vs quality wanted - your choice but I didn't hesitate with the B+W system as it was also part of a bundled option package at my time of purchase.
 
#28 ·
I have been an audiophile since 1973, worked (volunteered) in sound reinforcement for school stage and friends playing clubs, been to the Audio Engineering Society annual conference (though long ago) - the professional audio society in the USA - and think I've got a pretty darned good ear for both live and reproduced sound. Without getting into digital vs analog and all that, what I'll tell you is that the stock HK system is really and truly a fine car stereo. Very fine. 99% of listeners will think it sounds fabulous. When I was shopping for my V60, I didn't think ANY car stereo could possibly be worth $3000, because of the high ambient noise levels in a car. Then the salesman let me sit and play around with the B&W system. OMG.

The B&W system flat-out blows away most people's home stereos that cost a whole lot more than $3000. Seriously. Unless you're an audiophile, it's almost certainly superior to what you have in your home. If for no other reason that very, very, very few home stereos are custom-tweaked and equalized to suit the room into which they've been placed. Only the highest end boutique shops do that for you, which they do because you've 10x what the B&W costs. It's an amazing engineering tour-de-force, and it's custom tweaked for the "listening room" - which your stereo is not.

The caveat is that this statement applies to music. If you mainly listen to news or talk radio or recorded books or podcasts, it's not worth the extra money. But if you like to listen to music, especially if you take the time to load your purchased recordings onto your mobile devices, then get the B&W and don't look back. I don't think you will ever, ever listen to it and think "Well, I wish I hadn't spent $3000 on that". Unless you have a $20,000+ stereo in your home, this is the closest you'll have to having one. From that perspective, at $3000, it's an amazing bargain.
 
#29 · (Edited)
There is something that cannot be used with high-end audio systems: MP3, RADIO, BLUETOOTH and similar sources that drastically reduce the sound quality on those systems.

You can have an audio system of $ 10,000 or more but listening to music on that 96 kbit / s device up to approximately 160 kbit / s is ridiculous


It would be the same as buying a Ferrari 488 Pista and driving on gravel and unpaved roads
 
#32 ·
There is something that cannot be used with high-end audio systems: MP3, RADIO, BLUETOOTH and similar sources that drastically reduce the sound quality on those systems.

You can have an audio system of $ 10,000 or more but listening to music on that 96 kbit / s device up to approximately 160 kbit / s is ridiculous
If you have 4K or even 8K TV doesn't mean that you can't watch FullHD movies on it. It means that you just don't get full advantage of your equipment but a higher resolution screen will let you see some artefacts of video compression etc. The same goes if you run 4K video on a FHD screen - you just don't see all nuances of the image but if a screen is good in terms of color reproduction and contrast ratio you'll enjoy the video anyway.
Good audio system with high resolution will play MP3 or Bluetooth as good as it can but you may hear compression issues on 96 or 128 kb/s MP3 tracks or won't get all nuances of the music if you transfer FLAC via Bluetooth. I often run music from Deezer HiFi via Bluetooth on my B&W and it sounds good. You can hardly hear any differences while driving and with a lot of noises around.
 
#30 ·
Since the OP asked about differences at volume levels, I make up that he/she listens to more music at lower volume levels. I have discovered that most differences between systems can be really heard at higher volume levels (not to say all differences, but the most dramatic)

With that being said, I asked myself the following questions when I made my choice for my car.

1. How much do I really listen to louder music, or is it mostly background music? Since I retired, no commute and that was when I cranked up music or listened with greater attention.
2. On trips, most are with my wife, she doesnt like music to be played much at all, and if it is, at very low volumes.
3. What audio sources do I listen to most often. With shorter drives, mainly fm radio. Poorer quality source seems to minimize differences.
4. My budget. I was cross shopping a Subaru Outback, and the Volvo was more money. One way to get the price down was to forgo a $3200 option.

If I drove a lot I would have gone with the B&W, but given my current situation, I just couldnt justify it.
 
#31 ·
After being around this world awhile. When you decide to "not" get an option, you might second guess yourself and always wonder if you should have.......... We decided for the option and had to drive 5 hours to another dealer to get the options we wanted for our XC60...... Good luck on your decision.
 
#34 ·
Different Volvos, but I have the B&W in my S90 and my wife has the HK in her XC90. I will tell you that at high volumes the B&W sounds better. Much better. But they HK still sounds very, very good. With that being said, I rarely listen at that volume. In the 50% volume setting things are much closer. B&W still wins but not by much. Sadly 80% of my driving (especially during Covid) is with the family, so the volume is closer to 25% where I cannot hear any difference between the two systems.

Add in the fact that I do enjoy talk radio and podcasts which sound identical on both systems I do not believe I am getting the full benefit of the B&W. I purchased my S90 CPO and the cost of the B&W was nearly free so for me it was a no brained. Think about your listening habits to see if it makes sense for you.
 
#42 ·
My opinion is, the B&W does sound extremely nice, but I would never spend my money on that option if I had the choice.
I had a 2018 without and a 2019 now with it. It does sound better, but would I rather have a suitcase full of cash in the trunk instead, hell yes.
But when buying used, it doesn't increase as much, and you can't really choose every option on a pre-owned car quite as much, especially on a Volvo, not like a mass market car where you have hundreds to choose from. I narrowed my S90 search down to 5 cars, in the entire country!
Also speaking of used value, say a car is $1000 more with B&W vs a comparable car without it, if/when you trade it in/sell it, it will still be worth more, maybe not $1000, but say $700? (obviously just hypothetical numbers) so is it worth $300, to have B&W for a while on a used CPO car, heck yeah, sure thing. So that $3,200 initial hit really isn't $3,200, it is $3,200 - the increased value of a B&W used car.
For kicks I just priced a car on KBB, 2018 S90 T6 with 35K miles with and without B&W, $600 difference. So on a used car, YES, get it, but don't be the guy that buys it new if $3,200 can be used elsewhere.
 
#54 ·
For those of use that are emotionally connected to music, B & W is worth every penny. I'd have paid even more for the system, it really is that good. The average consumer really can no appreciate the actual achievement this system brings, especially over lossless music. I could care less what the resale value is (actually, since it's a lease I only payed about 1/2 of the system cost), but when I pull into the garage at night and sit in the pitch black and turn up the volume and play music that gives me goosebumps, makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck and moves me to tears........worth every penny. Many owners have bought the system just for that reason. Many people view music as something to pass the time, while others make it an intricate part of their life. B & W audio is lost on a lot of people, and I'm OK with that. But don't downplay the system for a music lover. It just may be the best audio system in a car in the world.
 
#50 ·
The B & W system has had that design for quite some time. It literally is the entire idea behind the design and the look. I paid a boatload to have it, and I want to be reminded when I look around. There really isn’t any other way to make a forward facing speaker. I don’t care for the XC60 layout as much as the S60
 
#53 ·
Fair enough. I am waiting on my first Volvo ( OSD XC60 T8) that should be here in a couple of weeks, so I have no first hand experience of living with or without the speaker on the dash.
It does seem to go against the whole Swedish minimalist design shtick, but I also get that if you want an effective front firing speaker, that's where it has to go.
 
#55 ·
If the door panel is moving, than it's possible the driver needs to be more isolated from the rest of the door! That's not necessarily a good thing to have happen. And $15k headphones?? Dude, what are you talking about? Let's use Bowers and Wilkins headphones as an example. Their top pair sell for $700 and they sound terrific. Likely as good as or better than the car systems due to isolating the room and tire/wind noise out of the experience. So please, keep the hyperbole under control.