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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

I am currently working on a 68 122s Wagon. I am seeking input. I want to boost my 122s and I have two block options at my disposal. Let me give you what I have established already.

1968 122s:

Lowered overload coils at 4 corners (lowered 2.5")
KYB gas adjust shocks
IPD Sway bars front and rear

B18 bored .020
D grind cam
IPD lifters and pushrods (IPD's Hi-Rev kit)

B20 needs to be bored .020 at least
6 bolt crank
F head port matched intake and exhaust, double valve springs, 5 angle valve job.

Here's what I want:

200-250 hp at the wheels:

Garrett t28 ball bearing turbo OR Vortech V1 Supercharger (I am leaning towards sc)
Air to Liquid Intercooler... I will be running this off of the A/C system to sort of refrigerate the intake air.
forged Pistons either engine (B18 or B20)
Pauter lightweight forged rods

T5 trans
Ford 8.8" IRS or 9" with 4 link (4 link will be easier but again looking for input)

MegaSquirt fuel injection and crank triggered ignition.

Let me know what you think

Thanks!
 

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I note that Dr. Dill has referred you to Phil Singher, as I did on another forum.
Phil speaks with straight tongue - NOT forked!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ok, everything here makes sense. These guys have done the supercharger... The only thing that I see being a problem is cost, v-performance offers this kit for 3250.00 without a throttle body, ignition and fuel management... After doing a bit of research and calculations I can put together a vortech v1 system, with throttle body, megasquirt injection system/ignition system(boost retard&knock sensing) for similar price...

Vortech v1... 1800.00 (headunit and oil lines)
Intercooler, piping and clamps and couplers... 200.00 on eBay air to liquid ic, plumbing, pump, and exchanger...
Microsquirt ecu... 400.00
Remaining injection components (surge tank, pumps, lines, rail, injectors, regulator) 400.00
Sc bracket... 100.00 (steel) 250.00 (aluminum)
Throttle body (80.00 throttle body, 100.00 to adapt d-jet or k-jet intake manifold)

Total...3080.00-3230.00 ish with ignition, fuel, EVERYTHING...
 

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Skip outside turnkey suppliers and put the B20 together yourself.

Also, 200hp is doable for reasonable $$ but shooting for 250hp at the rear wheels will cost at least triple.

The '68 122 wagon can be brought down to 2,300lb dry with B20 and no AC (dry battery in the rear pax-side footwell). Replace the rear seat with a fiber cargo box and run a 5-point driver's seat with no rollbar. The front pax seat depends on her disposition.

Skip the blower (and turbo) and run the bored B20 (custom pistons/rods/crank) with twin streetable race carbs, a street cam, custom intake/exhaust and laptop-controlled ignition. Keep it below 4,500rpm and you won't need alloy/lightened valve train components. Aim for reliability foremost.

If the wagon has stock trans/diff you will need a redo to get a workable drive ratio. For autocross on fat dry tires the stock axles may give up before the drum brakes overheat. Rather than an OD many rodders go with the more robust 4-speed manual from the 164 but this requires playing with the tunnel, custom bell housing and fiddling to get the drivetrain to run true and straight. Diff gear sets of popular ratios are on the same shelf with the hens' teeth.

A total rear axle swap is a no-brainer but needs-nothing donor rear axles/diffs/disk brakes are on that same shelf.

Visualize the final product as you want to drive it on the street then work in that direction.

George Dill
 

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200 wheel HP is not possible naturally aspirated. It is possible with forced induction, IF you can get the exhaust ports to flow well enough -- that will be the limiting factor. I'd say anything much over 200 at the wheels is not going to happen.

Note that acceleration is a function of the area under the torque curve, not peak HP... I don't really care a bit about peak numbers anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Okay,
I am no longer looking for high numbers... Just loads of fun in an interesting ride. I'm taking this project in a new direction... Looking at power to weight, an all motor N/A b20 that is streetable would make about 125-140whp right? So the pwr/wt is around 1/19... Streetable boosted b20 160-180 at 6-10lbs on pump gas? 1/14... 1 hp to every 14 lbs will scoot... I think that this is the route, but what else will I need?

Should I get low comp pistons even though boost will be under 15lbs?
Can I get enough squish and quench by boosting a b18 with b20 head?

Phil, I've heard from several people in the Portland and Seattle area that you have tons of knowledge and have built more than several reliable and powerful engines... I don't question anything said here, but theoretically using an air to liquid ic that has refridgerant in it to supercool the intake charge to below ambient temp would allow for higher boost levels without detonation, right? I have slightly enlarged the exhaust ports, but only to gasket match along with the ipd header I have.

I just want to know what I need to make it perform well and keep it reliable.

Thanks
 

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Chris, here's what you're up against, no matter how you go about it: The biggest factor in making power is how much oxygen you can get into the engine, and that depends very largely on how much exhaust you can get out. B20 heads flow pretty well on the intake side, but the exhaust ports are terrible. You will find that even with a supercharger, you'll hit a wall where more boost does not make any more power, due to the exhaust restriction. So, whatever money you spend on improving the exhaust flow will pay you back. Bigger exhaust valves help (the F head intake valves are already the optimum size). Welding up the floors of the exhaust ports so there's enough material to get a good port shape helps more -- however, this will destroy whatever work has already been done on the head.

Side note... boost is a measure of *restriction* to flow. You will get lower boost gauge readings, with the same blower or turbo, on a head that flows well than on one that doesn't, and better performance at those lower boost readings.

Some other considerations:

A supercharger takes a considerable amount to power to spin, so although the power gains outweigh the losses, they tend to gobble fuel at an alarming rate. Turbos are much more of a "free lunch" in that regard, but generate a lot of heat you somehow need to get out of the engine bay. Neither is easy to make fit (I'm thinking a turbo might go where the battery normally is). Both will require a lot of fabrication.

Is it better to go with relatively low compression and more boost, or higher compression and "low pressure" boost? I don't know myself, but it's something you might research.

Cam overlap is not your friend in a boosted engine -- you don't want the intake charge to get blown out the exhaust before it has a chance to compress. A dual-pattern cam, with more duration and less lift on the exhaust lobes and fairly wide lobe separation, is what you're after. I've used the D cam on many lower-budget NA engines, but that's not going to work well for you in that scenario.

Something I'd be interested in doing, but haven't had a chance to mess with, is fitting a Volvo OHC turbo engine into an Amazon or 1800, complete with the injection, etc. It doesn't exactly drop in, but it is certainly the cheapest route and you're not having to reinvent something Volvo already engineered perfectly well...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So what do you think of a remote mount turbo? Looking at the space right in front of the rear axle, small box probably aluminum with a smaller turbo inside so that it doesn't take a huge beating... Piping shielded from exhaust heat with a aluminum skid plate, exhaust wrapped from header to tailpipe (hot gas moves faster, right) small barrel style intercooler mounted in front of battery tray, and piped into my k jet manifold... B20 with megasquirt perfectly tuned, c grind cam, double valve springs, ipd hirev kit, have the exhaust ports Enlarged to 38mm and do some pretty clean port work...

This would give me a boosted 122 with an interesting setup and cool engine bay that isn't over cluttered with turbos or superchargers... But the boost won't be a huge amount, and there will be a pretty fair amount of lag (I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts of a solution to lag in a remote turbo system)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
George....
I was thinking remotely mounted at the rear axle. I'm looking serious input, if I wanted someone to point out the obvious I'd go talk to the kid at the chevron station.
 

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a boostedr motor

Hi
I have some information that may or may not be helpful.
I had a vintage Judson supercharger that I had rebuilt and running on a stock B18 with C cam But i wanted to build a dedicated Blower motor.
I don't have have bottomless pockets so trick unobtainium parts were not an option.

Head B20 F 74-75 vintage, Swirl polishe intakes with stock valves 38mm Manley Exhaust valves with aggressive exhaust porting and Comp Cams double valve springs and retainers
ARP head studs,,
B 20 block decked and bored .020 with Mahle pistons and Total Seal steel rings
Stock rods beaded, Since no revving over 6,000 I passed on ARP rod bolts
Crank cut .010 under and Rod journals crossdrilled
Also 16 lb flywheel and Stage IV clutch with everything balanced together

and after extensive search world wide an Isky cam ordered direct from Ron Iskenderian (who is great to deal with)
It is called a T-3 grind with 112 degree lobe center and 260 duration
smaller pulley for blower to raise boost from 5 to 8 psi boost and...

a torque monster.

I put taller tires (205-65-15)on it because I don't want overdrive.(and can also light them up easily if I want to return to my childhood). I am very happy, Good Luck with your motor:)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
R-Sport

I just had a couple of e-mails with Ben @ RSI...

Looks like I'm gonna stroke it to about 92mm (from 80mm) and bore it a little bit (.020 over) to give me a little more displacement to work with... The pistons will be custom from Weisco and some H-beam rods from RSI...

Had the block tested and cleaned so that is ready...

Next step is modifying the IPD header that I have to bolt it to the Turbo... reading the turbo maps running around 2.1/2.2 liters of displacement the GT2871RS Turbo will spool really quick (about 2000 RPM and peak at around 4-5000 RPM)

Does anyone have any experience using a T28 turbo on a B21? Just needing some real world experience with a similar displacement motor and that turbo...

Thanks for all the input!
 

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Judson setup for non believers

Got around to posting a video for those who are interested

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJQFJ0D2zrg

Hi
I have some information that may or may not be helpful.
I had a vintage Judson supercharger that I had rebuilt and running on a stock B18 with C cam But i wanted to build a dedicated Blower motor.
I don't have have bottomless pockets so trick unobtainium parts were not an option.

Head B20 F 74-75 vintage, Swirl polishe intakes with stock valves 38mm Manley Exhaust valves with aggressive exhaust porting and Comp Cams double valve springs and retainers
ARP head studs,,
B 20 block decked and bored .020 with Mahle pistons and Total Seal steel rings
Stock rods beaded, Since no revving over 6,000 I passed on ARP rod bolts
Crank cut .010 under and Rod journals crossdrilled
Also 16 lb flywheel and Stage IV clutch with everything balanced together

and after extensive search world wide an Isky cam ordered direct from Ron Iskenderian (who is great to deal with)
It is called a T-3 grind with 112 degree lobe center and 260 duration
smaller pulley for blower to raise boost from 5 to 8 psi boost and...

a torque monster.

I put taller tires (205-65-15)on it because I don't want overdrive.(and can also light them up easily if I want to return to my childhood). I am very happy, Good Luck with your motor:)
 
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