SwedeSpeed - Volvo Performance Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello alll - i have a 1985 240 dl - i replaced the rear brake pads, it seemed simple enough, any way - now I have no brakes - I tried to bleed the brake lines - to no luck - the only brakes I have are the emergency brakes. I have replaced brakes on my wifes BMW several times, so i'm not sure why the volvo is giving me issues - prior to changing out the back brakes, they worked fine - can someone point me in the right direction, i'm dead in the water and need to get her back on the road. is there a certain order to bleed, or an easier way to bleed, more so the cortrect way. What did I do wrong to loose all breaks just for changing the back pads? Thank you all in advance -

Fred
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,169 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (fmacdowell)

You have air in the brake lines... or a leaking brake line.

The order for a 240 is RR, LR, RF, LF.

The biggest challenge to overcome is loose bleeder screws.

Did you use a vacuum bleeder tool like MityVac or did you pump the brake pedal?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (RearWheelPaul)

thanks for the response - initially i attempted to bleed via pumping the brakes - and i did not know it needed to be done in a specific sequence - i will try it per your outline. When i do pump the breaks, at some point the breaks do get firm but no response from the brakes, as the vehicle still moves. I will try to bleed in your order - and will let you know how it goes. thanks again Any additional help is greatly appreciated

Fred
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
19,953 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (fmacdowell)

Pumping the brake pedal to bleed the brakes can be bad news in an older car with an ancient brake master cylinder/booster. The seal(s) operate in an area of the brake master cylinder not normally occupied during routine braking. If the crud in this area damages the seal the brake fluid may fill the booster instead of the wheel brake cylinders/calipers.

Also, when installing the new rear pads what procedures/tools did you use to widen the opening between the rotor and caliper?

Lastly, are you certain of the correct application for the new rear pads?

http://www.ipdusa.com/uploads/images_skus/791.jpg

George Dill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (gdill2)

i am now begining to think what initially seemed to be an easy project has ended up in disasyer - I have replaced the brakes on my wife's BMW on numerous occassions and thought heck and old Volvo piece of cake - yeah right. I used a C clamp to depress the caliper in order to fit the new pads. I have on order a Chiltons book since no local parts stores have them in stock. I'm going to try and bleed the lines in the correct sequence. I purchased a bleeder tool to help verses depressing the break - any tips on getting this going? thanks Fred
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,169 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (gdill2)

Exactly. I fear that Fred may have damaged his car's master cylinder when pumping the brake.

Damaging master cylinder seals easy to do in any car, using this method of brake bleeding.

When damaged, the end-seals in the master cylinder allow fluid to work its way around the plunger. This reduces line pressure and causes the master cylinder to lock. Sometimes, the fluid goes all the way past the master cylinder and enters the brake booster. Not good.

If this is the case, repair involves replacing the master cylinder with a new or re-man unit, re-bleeding the brakes (using proper tools).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (RearWheelPaul)

when i do attempt to manually bleed -i do get fluid out of the bleeder valve when i depress the brake - is that a sign that the master cyl may still be functioning?

thanks Fred
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,169 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (fmacdowell)

Not necessarily.

Loosening the bleeder screw makes it easier for the master cylinder. So instead of having to generate a few thousand psi, it only has to generate 1-2 psi.

If the performance of the master cylinder has degraded, it will manifest itself when the bleeder screw is closed. It is at this point that demand (~ thou psi) exceeds capacity (1-2 psi).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
19,953 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (RearWheelPaul)

Widening the space between the rotor and caliper using force WITHOUT first loosening the bleeder valve can do huge damage to the caliper innards.

George Dill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (gdill2)

Well, after 1.5 hours and some choice words, i was able to bleed all lines (the right way)
and my brakes are working fine now - woahhh what a relief; i purchased a bleeder tool from Harbor Freight tools, it worked like a charm, and not having to have someone depressing the brakes was in itself GREAT!. Not having to replace the Master Cyl, and whatever elese i initially thought I damaged in the process of changing the rear pads was AWESOME. I thank everyone who provided feedback, as it was much appreciated, at one point i was about to give in and take her to a break specialist and fork out the $$$, thank goodness for "swedespeed".


Thank you everyone
- my breaks are back!


Fred
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,305 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (fmacdowell)

Nice to hear you got things back in working order.

We started a "simple" brake job on my 244 last year, and it wasn't 'fun' having the pedal go to the floor with the "brake failure" light on, as I tried to stop (this was after the job was supposedly done!)at a red light.

Several trips back to my indie and a few posts on here & we found a series of problems & finally fixed them all.

Happy driving...again! http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
19,953 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (Taleof2Bricks2)

One finds both good advice and other here on Swedespeed as is elsewhere on the www.

Reminds me of the young man in a motel room on his wedding night calling his dad for advise - "Just put the biggest thing you got where she pees."

He put his bowling ball in the commode.

George Dill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
371 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (RearWheelPaul)

Quote, originally posted by RearWheelPaul »
You have air in the brake lines... or a leaking brake line.

The order for a 240 is RR, LR, RF, LF.


Hey, Paul... this seems to fly in the face of the Volvo brake manual, TP 11485, Page 7, for Volvos 1975 and on where it says to start at the left front, right front, left rear, right rear with the insert update stating that the upper pistons should be bled first in the sequence of all calipers.
Don't get me wrong... In every manual that I have, it says to start with the caliper furthest from the master cylinder (as I have always done it) but not in the Volvo manual. The last time that I bled the brakes on this Volvo two years ago, I followed the manual without a hitch. Are the Volvo manuals (The old Green Books) wrong?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,169 Posts
Re: Bleeding brake lines - changed back pads now i have no brakes (JBLasVegas)

Quote, originally posted by JBLasVegas »
Are the Volvo manuals (The old Green Books) wrong?

Dunno. There were several versions of TP 11485 published.

In any event, the caliper layout of the really early model 240s are different. The front calipers have three bleeders and two flex lines. Volvo has a funny sequence for bleeding those systems, which is again different than that which you quoted.

The Volvo Shop Manuals (Green ones) for cars built from the mid 80s to early 90s follow the pattern I described. At least they do in the ones on my bookshelf. The only notable difference involve ABS cars (TP 31678/1) -- but this makes sense given that they have a much different brake line layout.

There is at least one really good reasons why it's prudent to drain the long line first: It is the line with the highest volume. Therefore, if air is somewhere in the system, its most likely to be in the long lines;

If you drain the LR and RR lines first, but keep the reservoir high enough to avoid getting air into the system, you'll get about 70% of the old water-laden fluid out. In doing so, you'll prevent the new fluid from acquiring the water which is saturating the old fluid.

[edit] Since I change between ATE Blue and Typ200 fluid, I've been able to measure the volume of the lines in my 1991 240 w/ABS. (Yeah, I know. Keeping stats like this is anal retentive, but it helps prevent wasted money on the expensive fluid that I use -- ATE costs more than the run-of-the-mill stuff)

They are:

Long rear line requires .3 litre, rear line 0.1 litre, long front 0.25 litre, short front 0.1 litre. [edit]

Because of brake fluid's hygroscopic nature, water will disperse throughout the fluid. It will move from areas of high concentration (old fluid) to low concentration (new fluid).

So if you drained the short lines first, you'd need to use much more brake fluid for a proper flushing.

Bleeding pattern aside, the most important thing is to use new fluid and the proper tools.

The OP's problem probably had more to do with using the pedal method than anything else. That's why the first thing I asked was what type of bleeder he was using.

Modified by RearWheelPaul at 5:28 PM 4-5-2009
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Is it really that important to bleed the brake system when changing brakes?

I've changed brakes on my old S10, my dad's GMC Jimmy, my mom's Pontiac Vibe, and my Pontiac G5... NEVER once did I bleed the brakes, I just popped the brake res lid and then used a clamp and pushed the brake piston back into the chamber.

NEVER had any problems with this method and the cars have had over 50k put on them since the jobs...
I just have to pump the brakes afterwards to get the pads to sit on the rotors again, no big deal... I'm just wondering cause I'm going to be tackling this job soon on the 242 and I don't understand why you have to bleed a brake system if there is no air in the lines.

Modified by 78brickonwheels242 at 6:28 AM 4-12-2009
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,169 Posts
Re: (78brickonwheels242)

Quote, originally posted by 78brickonwheels242 »
Is it really that important to bleed the brake system when changing brakes?

No.

Quote, originally posted by 78brickonwheels242 »
I don't understand why you have to bleed a brake system if there is no air in the lines.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic -- it pulls moisture out of the air. When it becomes saturated with water, the boiling point of the brake fluid is reduced significantly. Water saturated brake fluid corrodes internal surfaces of the brake system, which are not plated.

Bleeding should be done every 2 years. Doing it when you change the pads is a good idea. It saves time because the car is already jacked-up, the wheels removed, the the caliper pistons retracted...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Re: (78brickonwheels242)

The sequence for the 240's up to ~'90 without ABS are the same, and each of the 8 bleed niples should be bled with the proper procedue. The master cyl is a LR/RF & LF& RR set-up, so following the Volvo sequence is best.
The later ABS cars got the one bleed/caliper as stated, and would always do the rears first, really doesn't matter, the farthest from the master cyl 1st is a good rule. There is only one line to the rear of the ABS cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Re: (RearWheelPaul)

Not in the US market cars.
AFIK, only the 240 ABS cars got the Girling calipers with the single bleed nipple. All other were the four piston Girling calipers with 3 bleeders, through 91, when afterwards the ABS was offered as standard equipment.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top