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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well I did my first and last autocross event and have decided the R is NOT a good autocross car. While I was somewhat competitive I found the R to be just too heavy.<br> There were 6 right turns in the course and I started with 45psi all around. After the first run I upped the front tires to 50psi as the tires were getting scuffed well down on the side walls. After a few more runs I increased the left front to 55 psi but after another run or two it was obvious the side walls were still getting scuffed mid way down on them. I talking sidewall now not the top or near the tread of the tire. I figured at this point the R was just too heavy in the front. <br> I see now why 85% of the other cars there were Miatas and WRX's. I was hanging with a 350Z owner and he had to reduce the air pressure in his front tires...<br> The R was making a lot more power than most of the other cars and my instructor was pretty impressed how I could squirt down the short straights and make up time, never having to leave 1st gear.<p>Just curious if anyone else here has autocrossed their R and what their impressions are?
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

Propably some more camber is needed on the front. Also it appears as if you push the car in to corners to hard but difficult to say if one doesn't know the track.. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>The car is heavy yes. With the iPD track kit and Eibach springs it feels like half the weight.
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

If you were doing the whole course in first gear is wasn't a very good course. With the R's you really need to left foot brake so that you can get back on the gas as you are entering the turn and slowly release the brake on exit to increase you exit speed. The R is definately finicky, I found the drive by wire and turning radius to be the bigger obstacles than mass. If this was your very first autocross then the car has more to offer with seat time.
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (vintagemilano)

i took my R to Buttonwillow - and on a bigger track - the R does fine. It's not as fast as Vettes and other lighter/higher hp cars - but it would roast the Miatas....<p>I've been to autocross, and been along for the ride - those tracks are made for small light cars - and big hp isn't necessarily going to help. That's why guys in Miatas can turn times as fast as some Vettes.... a great driver and a well balanced car will easily beat out a novice in a "fast" car.<p>once you get onto the open road, or a larger track - the lightweight flickability of the miatas, and other small compact cars, is less noticeable and the all around abilities of the car (plus the driver!) make a bigger difference.<p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Auto Crossing the R (23109VC)

I have 6 days already on the track at Watkins Glen and going back in a few weeks for 2 more. The R is just fine on an open road course. Maybe I need more seat time like suggested above for the small tight autocross courses but it seamed no matter how much air I put in the front tires, it wasn't enough. I think the corners were too tight and I was pushing too hard. It was amazing to watch those much smaller cars zip through the course.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Auto Crossing the R (Johann)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Johann</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Propably some more camber is needed on the front. Also it appears as if you push the car in to corners to hard but difficult to say if one doesn't know the track.. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/wink.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>The car is heavy yes. With the iPD track kit and Eibach springs it feels like half the weight.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Already got maximum negative camber and staying within Volvo specs. It was the 90 and 180 corners that were getting me, I did just fine in the saloom part of the course. Now that I think about it, when I first drove Watkins GLen, I used to push like hell all the way through the "Toe of the Boot". With experiance I cut the push down to a minimum and was faster. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>PS. hate all the negative camber, tires rub now where they never did before.
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

I just worry about having to make a 3 pointer on the course. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

Jay regarding the front tuck, what sneakers do you have on it? Also, from the sound of it you would probably make good use of a stiffer rear bar - to get some rotation. You might find that playing with the rear pressure (instead of front) might make a similar effect.<p>Tom.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: Auto Crossing the R (tmtalpey)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>tmtalpey</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jay regarding the front tuck, what sneakers do you have on it? Also, from the sound of it you would probably make good use of a stiffer rear bar - to get some rotation. You might find that playing with the rear pressure (instead of front) might make a similar effect.<p>Tom.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>You could be right but I have decided not to autocross in the R. The course we were on was very uneven and bumpy and I felt I was punishing the R a little too much. On top of all that I lost AWD by the second to last run. I had an" Anti Skid" needs service warning and drove around in FWD for almost a week before I got the car into the dealership. Turns out I had a bad module for the RWD. 3 days and $1300 for the part. Luckily for me they covered it under warentee. I also was getting way to much tire rub from the sharp corners.<p>Autocross was fun but I still prefer the open track with high speeds. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/tongue.gif" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>RhaRdeR</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>...It was the 90 and 180 corners that were getting me, I did just fine in the saloom part of the course...</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Yeah, it depends a whole lot on how the course is set up. We had a guy in our region that used to set up courses for his VW Superbeetle. He had it figured perfectly for his suspension's transient response and damping rates. Nobody could keep up with him ... not the 'vettes or the sprigets or the alfas ... only one Lotus came close. It was really funny. After a few weekends we let somebody else set up the cones. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> <br>
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>RhaRdeR</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>I did just fine in the saloom part of the course. .</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I routinely slalom, informal course set up and the car tosses well. Most<br>of my friends are impressed with that part the most of this car<p>
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>RhaRdeR</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turns out I had a bad module for the RWD. 3 days and $1300 for the part. Luckily for me they covered it under warentee.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Ouch. "Module" as in electronics (DEM), or the whole Haldex unit? I can't see autoX killing a circuit board, though I certainly could see it heating the unit up.<p>As for continuing, I understand your decision. AutoX just isn't what the R's all about.<p>Tom.
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

I don't autocross the V70R, but I used to autocross a heavy, high-hp car. I learned to avoid events organized by the local Honda Civic club, the Miata club, even SCCA. Small, tight, slow. They would stage an event in someone's living room if they found a volunteer.<p>Look for big venues and something run by a Corvette club, Viper club, or -- better yet -- an Impala SS club! You'll have to travel more.<p>As Carroll Smith was rumored to say before a TransAm race...<p>"Time for the dance of the fat ladies!"<p>
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (ljjones)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>ljjones</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>Yeah, it depends a whole lot on how the course is set up. We had a guy in our region that used to set up courses for his VW Superbeetle. He had it figured perfectly for his suspension's transient response and damping rates. Nobody could keep up with him ... not the 'vettes or the sprigets or the alfas ... only one Lotus came close. It was really funny. After a few weekends we let somebody else set up the cones. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/smile.gif" BORDER="0"> <br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>Ha ha! That's exactly what I was thinking about in my post above. <p>What would be an ideal R course?
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (Dyno)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Dyno</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What would be an ideal R course? </TD></TR></TABLE><br>Well, I was impressed with Jay's runs on <A HREF="http://www.r-series.org/wg-gtg.html" TARGET="_blank">this one</A>! <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> <p>Seriously. Look for open courses that use HP. Sweepers. Esses. Not second-gear flat-out-and-turn-around things.<p>Tom.
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (RhaRdeR)

I've done extensive autocrossing with my S60R... I think I've taken it as far as it can go within stock rules. I've gone with Kumho VictoRacer 700s on 225/45/17 and Kumho V710s in 245/35/18... added 5mm spacers, alignment changes (maximum negative camber, for instance - but that's only about 0.5 degrees). On street tires, you're going to understeer like a madman. I wouldn't go above 50psi on street tires. On race tires, I run my V710s with 37.5psi in the front, and 32psi in the rear (yes, only 32!!!) It's taken me several dozens of runs to get to those numbers....<p>Overall, your assessment is correct. The S60R coming in at over 4,000 lbs. loaded is simply not nimble enough for tight curves, nor does the turbo spool quick enough to gain a significant horsepower advantage. I have speculated that a GT tranny with left-foot braking would actually out-perform an MT, even with good heel-and-toe shifting, but I don't have access to one to prove/disprove that theory.<p>Now, having said that, here's some pointers.<p>* Brake late, but very hard AND STRAIGHT. Use those big discs. Although heavy, the S60R's braking capacity in a straight line is phenomenal.... but ONLY in a straight line... If you have a curve, brake before the curve, and then get back on the gas, quick!<br>* Use the steering gingerly - any sudden steering changes will understeer almost immediately. This means you have to plan ahead more than any other car! (You should always be planning ahead, but the R's incapacity to change direction at will makes it more of a necessity)<br>* Heel-and-toe will help keep the turbo spooled.<br>* Gas, gas, gas..... in the middle of the curve, get back on the gas - all the way wide open. After a turn, you'll be running low power - it will take a while for the turbo to get you back to full power. Use that to your advantage. AWD+turbo is a good combination for exits.<br>* Enter slow, leave fast. If you enter a curve in the perfect position and get on the gas early, you'll be rewarded!<br>(A lot of these techniques are also taught in Autocross Evolution School)<p><i>and the pointer that will shave off a second or more:</i><br>* Disable 4C by unplugging one of the sensors (I usually do the one in the trunk)<p>I know the last one doesn't make sense, but I've run a fixed course on all suspension settings. The body roll you get with 4C disabled <i>helps</i>.... it puts more weight on the front tires and help your grip. The numbers don't lie. I've done it at several autocross events, and my time always dropped by at least 1 second per 40 seconds of course.<p>Overall, it's still a blast to take the 4-door family sedan out there. You'll beat a lot of older cars, and a number of 'vetts and even possibly an E36M3, although the latter is stiff competition since it corners better. The straight WRX you should be able to take... but not the STi. Against other cars in your class (DStock) like the Integra Type R or the Mazdaspeed Protege, you'll lose every time against a competent driver.<p>Course layout will also come into effect. The more open the course, the better you'll do.<p>I'd take 1/2 the horsepower and 1/2 the weight any time when autocrossing.<p>On the road, though, I'll take my 300hp and 4,000 lbs. of steel.<p><IMG SRC="http://www.s60r.net/images/autocross2.jpg" BORDER="0"><p><IMG SRC="http://www.s60r.net/images/autocross10.jpg" BORDER="0">
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (djeuch)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>djeuch</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I have speculated that a GT tranny with left-foot braking would actually out-perform an MT, even with good heel-and-toe shifting, but I don't have access to one to prove/disprove that theory.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>When I was invited to autocross the R at the Volvo "R experience" event, my "instructor" was Linda (?) Pobst. Anyone who follows sports car racing is familiar with <I>that</I> family name. Anyway, she predicted that a GT car would take FTD. I was poo-pooed by folks on this board when I told that story.<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>djeuch</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The body roll you get with 4C disabled <i>helps</i>.... it puts more weight on the front tires and help your grip. The numbers don't lie. I've done it at several autocross events, and my time always dropped by at least 1 second per 40 seconds of course</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I once read that the better, more experienced NASCAR drivers tend to prefer softer springs compared to their rookie counterparts. The theory is that with talent and experience (i.e., smoothness), you can control weight transfer and take advantage of the better bump-following characteristics of softer springs.<p>I guess we have to ask ourselves a question...<p>Who's smarter; us or the SUM module? Looks like we have one answer!
 

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Re: Auto Crossing the R (djeuch)

Great stuff!<p><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>djeuch</b> »</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The body roll you get with 4C disabled <i>helps</i>.... it puts more weight on the front tires and help your grip. The numbers don't lie. I've done it at several autocross events, and my time always dropped by at least 1 second per 40 seconds of course.</TD></TR></TABLE><p> <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emthup.gif" BORDER="0"> Lots of people don't believe this, but body roll is in fact, good for cornering. In the front at least. You hit the advantage of having 4C - that you can alter the suspension without hardware changes - one way to make good use of the stock class.<p>Interesting result on dropping the rear pressure so much. I assume this is enough to cause the rears to break away, giving you early rotation? In lighter FWD cars, often folks go for rock-hard in the rear. I'm thinking you don't want to give away the AWD advantage by going there. I'll bet your choice of tires is key to that - street tires probably would be better at higher pressure?<p>Tom.
 
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