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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Saw this in the Excursion thread, had to give you some kind of response (and possibly start some debate?), but that thread wasn't the place for it.<p><BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>are people, in Detroit, such degenerates that they will not accept the possibility (actually a fact) that there are better products a\out there than the P.O.Ss that the Big 3 idiots are putting out???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br>I don't get why people hate on American vehicles so much. When it comes to my style, anyway, there is no one out there that can touch them. The Mustang and Camaro/Firebird just can't be beat in bang-for-the-buck performance. What import can run a 13-second 1/4 mile for 20 grand? The only thing that comes close is the WRX, which will net you mid-14 second runs for $26k, and it doesn't include the inherent fun that comes with a RWD car and the beautiful song that only a V8 can sing. The Japanese "muscle cars" (TT Supra, 300ZX TT, and 3000GT VR-4) all carried sticker prices of ~$40,000.<p><br>No foreign automaker can make a half decent pickup truck either. I'm not even going to get started on this one.<p><br>Before you talk about the crappy quality, the only problem I ever had with the Mustang (modified at that) in 50k miles was blowing the 3rd gear synchro. And I don't blame Ford for that <p><br>Now, look at Detroit. When your neighbors are all employed by GM, Chrysler, and Ford, I would expect they would frown on a driveway that has nothing but imports sitting in it.<p>Now, if you think I'm a "degenerate" for liking American cars, why don't you pull that mommy-mobile out of the garage and come show me how it holds up against some real Detroit muscle <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsmilep.gif" BORDER="0"><BR><BR>
[Modified by anony00gt, 8:46 PM 9-24-2002]
 

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Re: ATTN: Yannis (anony00gt)

Well, other than those great V8 sports cars I don't see much on the market right now.<p>You can get a better car than what the Big 3 is producing at the same price for sure... no matter which segment you're talking about. <p>Obviously everyone rates different attributes of a car differently, for me that means - styling, handling, quality of materials, realiability, performance and price. There are no chrysler, gm, or fords that I would take as the #1 choice for any segments. But thats me.<p>The only cars I'll take from the Big 3s are Corvette, Mustang GT, PT cursiers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: ATTN: Yannis (xtremepsionic)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Obviously everyone rates different attributes of a car differently, for me that means - styling, handling, quality of materials, realiability, performance and price. There are no chrysler, gm, or fords that I would take as the #1 choice for any segments. But thats me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>The Big 3 certanly are lacking in the area of sporty sedans, I'll grant you that. The only real options there are the Pontiac Grand Prix and...well...the Pontiac Grand Prix, FWD automatic only <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsad.gif" BORDER="0"> I guess the Cadillac CTS might be one answer, although its styling is entirely subjective...it hasn't been out long enough to really prove or disprove itself yet...<p>Personally, I prefer to put performance at the top of my list. But that's me <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsmilep.gif" BORDER="0"><BR><BR>
[Modified by anony00gt, 8:55 PM 9-24-2002]
 

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Re: ATTN: Yannis (xtremepsionic)

I think if it boils down to bang for the buck it really depends on what qualities you are looking to capitilize on for that investment. Do you want raw horsepower? Refinment? More room? Reliability? Handling? Fuel milage?<br>For 20 grand there is going to be tradeoff and a lean to one of these categories. A camaro can prabably do 13 seconds and that is fantastic. I would probably trade it for a comfy V6 with 160hp and capable handling on a long road trip though. It all depends on what your fancy is, hard to bash most things these days, all have their ups and downs. Boils down to personal preferance. People who buy domestics because it gives jobs locally, I applaud you. It also gives me justification to buy my Euro car as the domestics are selling fine <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emwink.gif" BORDER="0"> <BR><BR>
[Modified by Spearzy, 9:13 PM 9-24-2002]
 

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Re: ATTN: Yannis (Spearzy)

You raise some interesting points there. Personally, I looked for the best balance I could get. The LS1-powered Camaro/Firebird is pure horsepower with mountains of torque, but the seats start to hurt your butt on long trips. The Mustang had a good amount of horsepower with a little less torque, but it's definitely more comfortable than the F-body. Personally, my choices were limited to these two because I just wanted a muscle car, and at the time I was frequently commuting between NJ and CT so comfort was the deciding factor (The 'Stang was a bit cheaper, can't say that didn't influence me too) <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsmile.gif" BORDER="0"><p><br>Funny thing, the lines are really blurred between imports and domestics. The DSM cars were designed in America by Americans, and built in Detroit using Japanese parts. Is that really an import?<p>The new Civic is assembled somewhere in the midwest. Is that truly an import?<p>A lot of VW's are assembled in Mexico. German car or Mexican car?<BR><BR>
[Modified by anony00gt, 9:54 PM 9-24-2002]
 

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Re: ATTN: Yannis (anony00gt)

The way I see it:<p>Best sports car in the world: European, opinions vary but most would take a European sports car<br>Nicest Luxury car: European.. Caddilac or Lincholn (sp?) can't come close to most mid-range Euro Lux cars. --Ford understands this or they wouldn't own Jag and Volvo.<p>This is why people like European cars, it's the thought of owning something slightly exclusive. A Mustang, Camaro, or any domestic save a few exceptions is not an exclusive car, you see them everywhere.<p>As far as supporting my local economy, in my extended family there are 7 Volvo 240's, all assembled in Halifax, Canada. My own '83 was assembled in Halifax. I've supported my local economy more than whoever on my street bought a Mustang, because they are built in the US. <p>Also, I came of car buying age when such vehicles as the Tempo, Sundance, and other vehicles were being produced... No thank you, I'll take a '76 Volvo instead. That will probably stick with me for the rest of my life... Unfortunate for Domestics, because I will not step foot in a domestic vehicle dealership.... Probably for as long as I live.
 

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Re: ATTN: Yannis (anony00gt)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><br>I don't get why people hate on American vehicles so much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Au contraire, my friend, I do NOT hate American vehicles. With the exception of a few models, I have no RESPECT (which is deifferent than hate) for them; they lack quality, style and (for the most part) performance; lastly, they are mostly anti-ecological (and not only their SUVs)<p><BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Before you talk about the crappy quality, the only problem I ever had with the Mustang (modified at that) in 50k miles was blowing the 3rd gear synchro. And I don't blame Ford for that <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>My first car out of college was an '89 Ford Escort GT...I bought it as a demo with only 3000 miles. By the end of 1992, I had racked 88,500 miles (!) and the only problem that I can remember having was a bad thermostat, once. Of course, I maintained it better than anything else in my life, then. So...was I lucky? Who knows? But in my line of work, I see MANY domestic cars and trucks traded with less mileage than that great Ford Escirt I had and the overwhelming majority of them have not held up. I get Chrysler owners and about 80% of them tell me that they are already in their...2nd or 3rd transmission!!! Paint is fading/peeling away (mostly GM products). Interior PLASTIC trim is falling apart and/or is cracked. Engines have clacking noise. Wheel bearings are so far gone I wonder what is under the car. And all these on cars that rarely have 80,000 miles. If I were to draw from my own experience I would say "yeah, American cars are finally good"...But I draw from my MANY DAILY experiences.<p><BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Now, if you think I'm a "degenerate" for liking American cars, why don't you pull that mommy-mobile out of the garage and come show me how it holds up against some real Detroit muscle <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsmilep.gif" BORDER="0"> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Now, I never implied that you are a degenerate for liking American cars. That is something that you...would say about...foreigners! What I wrote (and implied) was a response to the antagonistic and sometimes terroristic attitude that people in Detroit display toward anything foreign. It only happens here! Because they know they are weak...Imagine yourself in Germany and, amidst all the VWs, Opels, BMWs, etc. you "dare" purchse a Toyota. People would not even mind!!!! <B> <I>THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE</I> </B> between someone who is a degenerate and someone who accepts "other" products, people, etc. As far as my mommy-mobile against the best from Detroit, I am not concerned because raw performance is not what makes a car superior. Yeah, I can lose 0-60 to ONE-HALF percent of what Detroit puts out (which hardly makes my mommy-mobile a slouch). But I bet no Detroit product rides like my car, no Detroit product can combine my blistering performance with the good gas mileage I get, no Detroit product is going to look as good as my car on the road, no Detroit product's paint job is going to look as good asmy mommy-mobile's paint 8 years down the road...well, I will stop because the comparison is not fair. And in terms of performance, Detroit only knows how to get performance out of MAMMOTH 5.0L, 6.0L and 8.0L EIGHT-cylinder engines. Europeans (and Asians) know how to <B> <I>WRING</I> </B> power out of smaller and more fun to drive engines. Give Detroit a 4-cyl. or 6-cyl. engine and what do they get out of it? $#!t! And if you are boasting about RAW horsepower....take the best that Detroit can put out against the best from Italy, Germany or Japan. I bet they will be watching their tail lights...<p>Yannis
 

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Re: ATTN: Yannis (anony00gt)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You raise some interesting points there. Personally, I looked for the best balance I could get. The LS1-powered Camaro/Firebird is pure horsepower with mountains of torque, but the seats start to hurt your butt on long trips. The Mustang had a good amount of horsepower with a little less torque, but it's definitely more comfortable than the F-body. Personally, my choices were limited to these two because I just wanted a muscle car, and at the time I was frequently commuting between NJ and CT so comfort was the deciding factor (The 'Stang was a bit cheaper, can't say that didn't influence me too) <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsmile.gif" BORDER="0"><p><br>Funny thing, the lines are really blurred between imports and domestics. The DSM cars were designed in America by Americans, and built in Detroit using Japanese parts. Is that really an import?<p>The new Civic is assembled somewhere in the midwest. Is that truly an import?<p>A lot of VW's are assembled in Mexico. German car or Mexican car?<p><br>[Modified by anony00gt, 9:54 PM 9-24-2002]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br>Too true, everything is falling into one big melting pot these days. It seems that parts are shared, manufactured in twelve countries and shipped to whereever to be assembled. Perhapse the purebread Domestic or Euro or Japanese car is dead. Business seems to have shrank the world smaller than politics ever could have dreamed to do through diplomatic relations. Now-a-days we have cars such as the Vibe/Matrix, Talon/Eclipse (DSM), Stealth/3000GT and soon to be Focus/S40 to confuse even more. So people who bash a brand of car say ten years from now may just be bashing a nation rather than the product out of ignorance. I'd say the line hasen't dissolved yet even with these types of autos showing up because there is still a lot of brand only cars out there. Another thing that may never dissolve the line between foriegn and domestic is manufacturing techniques. Why should one product be reliable assembled in one area and be a mess in another? Perhaps unions and north americas high salary for line workers is good on one hand for standard of living but can't be good for the product considering it has to be built and sold at the same cost of the other guys whos employees are making half the money. Time must be cut out for assembly and quality dropped to meet final cost. Then again, cars probably sell at way over production costs, but I don't see the big three losing profits considering they have the money to buy the worlds automotive market.... I maybe ranting now...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: ATTN: Yannis (GrecianVolvo)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And in terms of performance.....take the best that Detroit can put out against the best from Italy, Germany or Japan. I bet they will be watching their tail lights...<br><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Haha. I'm comparing cars in the same price bracket, Italy and Germany's best is <i>MUCH</i> more expensive than Detroit's best. However, if you want to play that game, let's compare the $88,814 Dodge Viper GTS-ACR to the $224,714 Ferrari 550 Maranello. The Ferrari runs the 1/4 mile in 12.7, the Viper takes 12.6 seconds to do the same. Viper tops out at 186mph, the Ferrari at 188. Ferrari holds .94g's on the skidpad, the Viper holds .96g. Now I ask you, what is the case for spending an extra $135,900 just to get the Ferrari name?<p>I know a guy with an '03 Mustang Cobra who put about $1200 in mods into the car, making the grand total he spent on it at just about $35k, and he's putting down 453hp <i>at the wheels</i>. Some guy in a brand new Ferrari 456M made the mistake of revving next to him...the Mustang proceeded to hand the Ferrari its ass on a silver platter <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://********************/smile/emsmile.gif" BORDER="0"><p>Then again, if you want to compare Detroit to Europe while keeping the price somewhat close, wait till next year and compare the Ford GT-40 to the Ferrari 360 Modena.<p><br><BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Europeans (and Asians) know how to WRING power out of smaller and more fun to drive engines. Give Detroit a 4-cyl. or 6-cyl. engine and what do they get out of it? $#!t!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br>How do they wring power out of small engines? The only respectable ones are turbocharged, and GM has put out some pretty amazing turbocharged 6-cylinders in the past (Grand National and Cyclone/Typhoon come to mind). Sure the VTECs make a lot of horsepower, but they're torqueless and have to be kept above 5000 RPMs to make anything even remotely worthwhile. Detroit engineers 4-cylinders for what they were meant for, fuel economy. Not performance.<p>Detroit 6-cylinder sedans, powerwise at least, are right on par with their Japanese counterparts Compare a Taurus SEL (200hp/200tq, $22,920) to a Toyota Camry (192hp/209tq, $22,260). Seems pretty even to me in the engine department anyway, of course I haven't personally driven a brand new Taurus or Camry though.<BR><BR>
[Modified by anony00gt, 9:58 AM 9-25-2002]
 
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