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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone.

Can we have a real conversation on the merits of an FMIC (say from BELL) verse the merits of what AQUAMIST performs? Past threads touched on this, but now that a real FMIC is coming to town soon, I believe we ought to bring this to the attention of some folks looking for an alternative "process".

The Aquamist 2D system is roughly $854.00, and you can self-install. The 1S system is $500+. These systems are significantly less intrusive on the car, is VERY stealthy, and arguable saves you between $1K and 1.5K when you consider the cost of installing the FMIC.

Money is not the only discriminator, so I actually want to eliminate it from this conversation. Rather, I'd like to understand the pro's and cons of each system...

The FMIC conveys ambient air to the {edit: cylinders}, and the Aquamist actually conveys colder air than ambient to the {edit: cylinders}. So what am I missing???

Modified by Short Circuit at 7:21 AM 3-1-2007
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (Short Circuit)

Quote, originally posted by Short Circuit »
Hey everyone.

The FMIC returns ambient air to the Turbo, and the Aquamist actually returns colder air than ambient to the turbo. So what am I missing???

This is not an accurate description of what each of the systems do.

The FMIC's job is to take the heat generated by the compression of the turbo out of the intake charge between it and the cylinder.

The Aquamist, if I understand it correctly, doesn't try to chill the air charge prior to the cylinder, but rather IN the cylinder, during detonation. In other words, it becomes part of the combustion process.
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (Short Circuit)

Quote, originally posted by Short Circuit »

The FMIC returns ambient air to the Turbo, and the Aquamist actually returns colder air than ambient to the turbo. So what am I missing???

this is true only for a few minutes though (assuming you dump cold water in your tank). once that water gets to ambient temperature, its impossible for it to cool to below ambient temps.

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »

The Aquamist, if I understand it correctly, doesn't try to chill the air charge prior to the cylinder, but rather IN the cylinder, during detonation. In other words, it becomes part of the combustion process.

http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »


This is not an accurate description of what each of the systems do.

The FMIC's job is to take the heat generated by the compression of the turbo out of the intake charge between it and the cylinder.

So it cools the air before it actually enters the cylinders also? Correct? Cooling the air weather it is 98 degrees outside or the actual turbo has generated the heat. Am I looking at that correctly? I was thinking about getting the BELL I/C when it is available due to the high humid temps we get in the summer time(not to mention my T5 ran like garbage in that weather.... I have yet to drive my R in the heat) Please correct me if I am wrong..
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (phuz)

Quote, originally posted by phuz »


this is true only for a few minutes though (assuming you dump cold water in your tank). once that water gets to ambient temperature, its impossible for it to cool to below ambient temps.

http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
dosnt matter the cooling is due to whenchanges from liquid to vapor the head of vaporization is really high and it dissapates heat much better.
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (p0cket penguins)

when the turbo compresses the air its really hot from the exhaust side heating the air its passed through the intercooler to cool it down back to air temp or better so that hot air dosnt go into the engine the efficiency of the intercooler is what gives you the power lost to heat back
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (p0cket penguins)

Quote, originally posted by p0cket penguins »
dosnt matter the cooling is due to whenchanges from liquid to vapor the head of vaporization is really high and it dissapates heat much better.

im sure water/alcohol injection has a better cooling efficiency, but since you don't have a compression/condensing operation going on, you aren't going to get that temperature below ambient.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (phuz)

I thought someone said or I read that the Aquamist system takes air temps in a turbo to 35 degrees F below ambient, meaning you'd be running the turbo at the equivalent of 60 degrees F on the hottest Summer days.... seems better than the FMIC, no?
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (Short Circuit)

Quote, originally posted by Short Circuit »
I thought someone said or I read that the Aquamist system takes air temps in a turbo to 35 degrees F below ambient, meaning you'd be running the turbo at the equivalent of 60 degrees F on the hottest Summer days.... seems better than the FMIC, no?

hm...i never read this. can someone please explain how this is physically possible without the compression/condensing like an A/C uses?


i found a pretty good write-up here, http://www.turbobits.co.uk/aca....html, and i understand their formulas, but according to what they are writing, the more volume you inject, the lower the temperatures fall, so theoretically its possible to drop below ambient, but i do not see how this is PHYSICALLY possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

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So do you recommend the Aquamist or the Bell FMIC? What is the best bang for the buck? I am concerned about high temps in the summer, and I am wanting best possible performance out of her.......
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (ElakT5)

Quote, originally posted by ElakT5 »
So do you recommend the Aquamist or the Bell FMIC? What is the best bang for the buck? I am concerned about high temps in the summer, and I am wanting best possible performance out of her.......

i'm not going to go into my $$ analysis of an FMIC setup,
, but bang4buck will be your aquamist, when it comes to cooling.

another advantage (although highly unspoken for some reason) is the increased flow ability of the fmic. that alone is worth some ponies.

Quote, originally posted by Short Circuit »
I read it here somewhere. http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...pp=25

Good hour of reading, but unbelievably rich in detail.

excellent, and i narrowed that 1 hour down to 8 minutes of skimming, filtering out the word "ambient" and unfortunately at no point in that thread does anyone attempt to justify how this is done.

i really hope JimLill gets a minute or two to chime in
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (p0cket penguins)

Quote, originally posted by p0cket penguins »
when the turbo compresses the air its really hot from the exhaust side heating the air its passed through the intercooler to cool it down back to air temp or better so that hot air dosnt go into the engine the efficiency of the intercooler is what gives you the power lost to heat back

This is only one part of the equation, and I do not believe that it is the most significant contributor to the problem.

The real reason is Boyle's Law of Gases. (P1*V1)/T1 = (P2*V2)/T2.

That means that when a gas (intake charge) undergoes either a change in pressure, volume or temperature, that the corresponding values post change need to change to keep the equation balanced. Simply put, compressing gases causes them to gain heat.
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (ElakT5)

Quote, originally posted by ElakT5 »


So it cools the air before it actually enters the cylinders also? Correct? Cooling the air weather it is 98 degrees outside or the actual turbo has generated the heat. Am I looking at that correctly? I was thinking about getting the BELL I/C when it is available due to the high humid temps we get in the summer time(not to mention my T5 ran like garbage in that weather.... I have yet to drive my R in the heat) Please correct me if I am wrong..

Yes, the FMIC is an air to air heat exchanger. This means that it uses air cooling (coming in the front of your car) to cool the air passing through it (the intake charge). Once the charge passes through the FMIC, it has no more effect on the charge.
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (p0cket penguins)

Quote, originally posted by p0cket penguins »
when the turbo compresses the air its really hot from the exhaust side heating the air its passed through the intercooler to cool it down back to air temp or better so that hot air dosnt go into the engine the efficiency of the intercooler is what gives you the power lost to heat back

Not sure if you just worded this incorrectly or not really sure how a turbo operates.

Here is a short and simple Turbo 101 for those that really don't know!!!

1. There are two parts to a turbo, the turbine side and the compressor side. Both are connected by the same shaft and spin at the same speed.

2. The turbine side is connected and driven by your exhaust after passing out of the exhaust manifold. This is the side where the waste gate and down pipe are connected.

3. The compressor side takes air in coming from your air box, compresses it, and pushes it through your "over the engine" (OTE) pipe and through the intercooler(s), to the throttle body and into the combustion chamber.

In short, the compressing of the air is what heats it up, not the exhaust. Hopes this clarifies, or maybe I was the one confused
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (phuz)

Quote, originally posted by phuz »
hm...i never read this. can someone please explain how this is physically possible without the compression/condensing like an A/C uses?

Isn't this due to the fact that water has far better thermal properties than air? ie. far better thermal conductivity and specific heat capacity? Meaning that water can absorb more energy (heat) than air, thus cool more effeciently?

Picture this.

FMIC set up.

Air > airbox> turbo> FMIC > intake > cylinder.

So the air is taken from an ambient temp, then compresed in the turbo, which even in a perfectly cool turbo will heat up the air due to the compression, PLUS the extra heat of the turbo, then travels to the FMIC and cools down again, then into the cylinder where it is again heated both from compression and the warm block/cylinder.

So once the air has left the FMIC it will not be cooled down anymore.

Aquamist set up.

Air > airbox> turbo> lathargic OEM intercooler> intake > cylinder + aquamist injection.

Here the air is cooled by the poopey Volvo intercooler and then travels into the cylinder where the whole mixture (water via aquamist, air, & gas) is compressed however, the water can absorb more energy per degree of heat change than just the air/gas set up, and therefore have a lower cylinder temp, reducing the likeliness of pre-detonation and allowing more boost http://********************/smile/emthup.gif.

I dont believe that even the BEST FMIC can truly reduce intake temperatures right down to ambient temps. But, I would believe this with Aquamist. Plus, you can always throw a tray or two of icecubes into the tank http://********************/smile/emthup.gif .

PS. So far this seems like a pretty good thread, hope it stays this way, latley as noted by many others threads have been...subpar.
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (ibanezplayer)

This has explained a lot! Now my questions is, is there any advantage to have both a Bell I/C and Aquamist? Is that too extreme?
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »


This is only one part of the equation, and I do not believe that it is the most significant contributor to the problem.

The real reason is Boyle's Law of Gases. (P1*V1)/T1 = (P2*V2)/T2.

That means that when a gas (intake charge) undergoes either a change in pressure, volume or temperature, that the corresponding values post change need to change to keep the equation balanced. Simply put, compressing gases causes them to gain heat.


poop where did chem 101 go your exactly right
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (ElakT5)

Quote, originally posted by ElakT5 »
This has explained a lot! Now my questions is, is there any advantage to have both a Bell I/C and Aquamist? Is that too extreme?

Yes there is an advantage. However, it will not be very efficent on your pocketbook. I know were not supposed to discuss money. BUT neither of these mods are what I would consider cheap, and combined I doubt the advantages would warrant the cost.

A new FMIC would remove Volvo's horrible joke of an intercooler that essentially robs power, for two reasons.

1) It isn't a TRUE FMIC, so it isn't as efficent as it could be

2) It has a horrible plumbing job that is rather restrictive, not to mention makes the second intercooler a joke.

So ultimatley, without talking about money, yes there is an advantage to having both, it frees up the flow of air, and will allow for cooler air pre-aquamist injection, plus all the same benefits of Aquamist on top.
 

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Re: Aquamist -vs- FMIC (phuz)

Quote, originally posted by phuz »


im sure water/alcohol injection has a better cooling efficiency, but since you don't have a compression/condensing operation going on, you aren't going to get that temperature below ambient.

Like p0cket penguins said, it is due to the heat of vaporization. A fair amount of energy is required for liquid water droplets to change phase into a vapor. This energy (heat) comes from the air. As the water changes phase, the air is cooled to temperatures well below ambient. The total amount of energy in the air/water system is conserved (adiabatic process), so the heat energy in the air is used by the water when changing phase. The amount of cooling is dependent upon how dry or humid the ambient air is, with dryer air providing greater decreases in air temperature. While a different application than a car engine, I have seen the same evaporative cooling principal used to cool 105 degree F air down to 48 degrees F to cool buildings in the hot dry climate of Utah.
 
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