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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok I'm balls deep in my brake job.

When I had a flat fixed last time my tire guy warned me one of the bolts was stripping out.

So I just went ahead and ordered all new black lug nuts from one of the Vendors.

I noticed that the lug bolts I'm taking out are crazy rusted and damn near impossible for my 18V Milwakee lithium ion cordless impact to undo, which means they need more than the 450 ft lbs of torque it's rated for to remove. They were torqued down to the Volvo OE spec by me last time so they were not over torqued.

The couple lugs I did get out are super rusty. I'm going to wire brush out the threads in each hub, then I think I may try a litte bit of anti-seize on each lug bolt this time. I have both cooper and the aluminum based anti-seize at the house.

I have never used anti-seize on lugs in the past, but I have never had these issues with rust either, can't help things these wheels have been on the car for 2 winters with out being removed.

I figure it's got be like installing ARP studs where having them torqued correctly with the ARP grease holds the head on better than putting them in dry and getting false torque readings from friction.


Hell is there some recomended fluid or locking compound specific for torquing lug nuts? If there is I don't mind buying some.

All this salt and snow in Utah can't be helping. They spread salt like crazy on the roads here, and I get salt in the freaking air from living like 5 miles from the shore of the Great Salt Lake.










Stealthy? Give us the engineers point of view.
 

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I use anti-seize on both sides of the rotor hat, but never on lug bolts or nuts, I wire brush any rust and install, just a personal preference. Some do and have had no issues. I'd just check the bolts/nuts periodically to make sure they have not come loose. Also, I assume you've purchased aftermarket hardware, you should stick with OE hardware unless you need longer bolts for spacers or what not.
 

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I've heard it's bad idea to use any lube on wheel bolts / lugs.

one might surmise two bad things can happen:

1. they will back off a bit, causing the now loose / vibrating wheel to shear off the bolt

2. lube makes it too easy to over-torque -- stretching and weakening the bolt/lug.

I once put a small bit of 3-in-one oil on my wheel lug and found that they WOULD loosen and back off within a few miles of driving.

if you decide lube is the way to go, better re-check the torque as often as you check tire pressures (weekly)
 

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It's true you can easily over torque them 5-10 lbs, but this is not going to make or break the situation. It won't under torque them. These cars don't have a problem with warping the rotors if you over torque them a bit. Make sure to only get it on a few threads at the end. Do not get any on the tapered part of the lug nut.

I have been using Anti-Seize for 15 years on my 850 and have never had a lug nut back out or lose torque. I torque them at 85 or 90. I would never use oil or any other lubricant for this application.
 

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I use anti seize on every time on I take a tire off have been for years for every car I own or work on. Never had an issue with it.
 

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i use general purpose grease. the stuff you buy in a tube at any parts store. never had a problem with them backing out or stripping or anything. they always stay torqued and no over torque either


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OK, since we seem to have a diversity of opinion, let's consult an expert:

"
[email protected]


Anti-sieze on a lug bolt is a very bad idea !!!

Here's why:
Bolts or studs provide clamping force by being purposely stretched. Most torque specs bring a bolt well within its elastic limit.
Then when loosened they will return to their original length and can be safely reused (Some bolts, including many head bolts, are purposely stretched past their elastic limit, and can not be reused).
The torque wrench is the most convenient-but not the most accurate-method of properly stretching automotive bolts.

Engineers spend hours correlating the proper bolt stretch to the required turning effort.

About 90% of a torque specification is used to overcome friction; only 10% of the specified twisting effort provides clamping force.
It is no surprise then that most lubricant tables recommend a 40-45% reduction of applied torque when using anti-sieze on a bolt.
So, a lugbolt coated with anti-sieze should be tightened to a maximum of 49 ft-lbs. Tightening this lugnut to 85 ft-lbs. means it is now over-torqued by 73%!
Considering that most torque specs stretch a bolt to within 70% of its elastic limit, over-torquing by 73% will easily send the bolt or stud well beyond its elastic limit-
and could be dangerously close to its failure point.

For this reason I would suggest to all forum members to never use anti-seize on your lug hardware.
"

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Here's a second opinion: from Sean Phillips Tomorrow's Tech magazine

"Lubrication

There is a great deal of argument is whether to lubricate lug threads. Some swear by the use of some form of anti-seize on the threads, whether lithium grease, WD-40, motor oil or Teflon spray. The idea is to prevent rust and make it easier when it comes time to remove the lugs. Others recoil in horror, saying that lubing the threads will iresult in overtorqued nuts, or that the lubrication will cause the nuts to work themselves loose.

Manufacturers, engineers and other industry experts seem to unanimously oppose using lubrication. On the other hand, some customers, DIYers and self-appointed Internet forum experts claim to have used thread lube since the very dawn of time with nary a problem.
My own opinion is more nuanced. I disapprove of lubricating threads in general, unless they are badly rusted. Most lug bolts and lug studs are coated with a substance intended to prevent rust, but certain makes and models seem to be much more vulnerable to rust than others (I’m looking at you, Volvo).

In that case I can see applying a small amount of lubricant to prevent further corrosion, but only after carefully cleaning the rust off the threads with a wire brush. In most cases, however, I would simply ensure that the threads are clean and not bother with lubrication.
If you do apply lubricant, make sure to do so carefully and only to the threads. Never allow any lubricant on the mating surfaces of the nut or the lughole of the wheel.

Much of the “stickiness” brought about by proper torque comes not from the threads but from the contact between mating surfaces. Even a thin film of oil between those surfaces can create a hydraulic barrier, preventing proper torque from being applied. This can also make it easier for the nut to work itself loose.

Either way, it’s always best to get that customer to return in two weeks to check the lug nuts for tightness if any lubricants are used."
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
OK, since we seem to have a diversity of opinion, let's consult an expert:

"
[email protected]


Anti-sieze on a lug bolt is a very bad idea !!!

Here's why:
Bolts or studs provide clamping force by being purposely stretched. Most torque specs bring a bolt well within its elastic limit.
Then when loosened they will return to their original length and can be safely reused (Some bolts, including many head bolts, are purposely stretched past their elastic limit, and can not be reused).
The torque wrench is the most convenient-but not the most accurate-method of properly stretching automotive bolts.

Engineers spend hours correlating the proper bolt stretch to the required turning effort.

About 90% of a torque specification is used to overcome friction; only 10% of the specified twisting effort provides clamping force.
It is no surprise then that most lubricant tables recommend a 40-45% reduction of applied torque when using anti-sieze on a bolt.
So, a lugbolt coated with anti-sieze should be tightened to a maximum of 49 ft-lbs. Tightening this lugnut to 85 ft-lbs. means it is now over-torqued by 73%!
Considering that most torque specs stretch a bolt to within 70% of its elastic limit, over-torquing by 73% will easily send the bolt or stud well beyond its elastic limit-
and could be dangerously close to its failure point.

For this reason I would suggest to all forum members to never use anti-seize on your lug hardware.
"

[email protected]


Here's a second opinion: from Sean Phillips Tomorrow's Tech magazine

"Lubrication

There is a great deal of argument is whether to lubricate lug threads. Some swear by the use of some form of anti-seize on the threads, whether lithium grease, WD-40, motor oil or Teflon spray. The idea is to prevent rust and make it easier when it comes time to remove the lugs. Others recoil in horror, saying that lubing the threads will iresult in overtorqued nuts, or that the lubrication will cause the nuts to work themselves loose.

Manufacturers, engineers and other industry experts seem to unanimously oppose using lubrication. On the other hand, some customers, DIYers and self-appointed Internet forum experts claim to have used thread lube since the very dawn of time with nary a problem.
My own opinion is more nuanced. I disapprove of lubricating threads in general, unless they are badly rusted. Most lug bolts and lug studs are coated with a substance intended to prevent rust, but certain makes and models seem to be much more vulnerable to rust than others (I’m looking at you, Volvo).

In that case I can see applying a small amount of lubricant to prevent further corrosion, but only after carefully cleaning the rust off the threads with a wire brush. In most cases, however, I would simply ensure that the threads are clean and not bother with lubrication.
If you do apply lubricant, make sure to do so carefully and only to the threads. Never allow any lubricant on the mating surfaces of the nut or the lughole of the wheel.

Much of the “stickiness” brought about by proper torque comes not from the threads but from the contact between mating surfaces. Even a thin film of oil between those surfaces can create a hydraulic barrier, preventing proper torque from being applied. This can also make it easier for the nut to work itself loose.

Either way, it’s always best to get that customer to return in two weeks to check the lug nuts for tightness if any lubricants are used."

We'll talk about irony, Luke pointed out how rusty Volvo lugs get.

The lugs I bough were the IPD Gorilla black coated lug bolts in factory length. I was hoping they would be slightly more resistant to corrosion than the OE ones that look bad from all the rust.
 

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i use silicone-based auto lube. just a little bit on the last few threads. works perfectly every time.


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welp that's the expert way to do it. i just didn't see anyone say anything about the silicone-based type. i had it on the bolts on my 02 s60 for a little over a year and i never had any problems with loosening or whatever.


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What I do with any vehicle with lug bolts is use a thread chaser tap and die with a little motor or transmission fluid.

Run the die on and off the lug bolts and it will clean up the threads, same with using the tap of the hub holes. Makes running the bolts in soo much easier and they won't tend to get stuck and rusted in as easy.

Personally I would use Fluid Film, which shouldn't effect the torque rating of the bolts and will help with them sticking inbetween taking them on and off.
 

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I use anti seize on all my lug nuts.
NEVER experienced any probs using anti-seize. We got in the habit of doing it on all cars that came in with over torqued lugs or cross threaded lugs. I have used it on my own cars ever since I started working there. Only my last few cars have had lug nuts or bolts clean enough to not need it.
 

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This Luke guys engineering buddies state that the bolts that use lubricant are 73% over torqued if I'm reading this correctly. Does that mean when I use Volvo specs to tighten my head bolts they are being stretched 130 degrees + 73% after being torqued to 44 lbs + 73%? I guess by this logic I shouldn't use lubricant on my head bolts either.

To each his own. I'm not recommending anything, just sharing my experience.
 

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Does that mean when I use Volvo specs to tighten my head bolts they are being stretched 130 degrees + 73% after being torqued to 44 lbs + 73%?
I believe the Volvo head bolt torque recommendations are given for a lubricated bolt. But even better, lube does not affect angle torque, that's the whole purpose of the angle torque spec. It pulls the bolt down a specific distance regardless of friction.

In any case, I think it's clear that wheel bolts have a lot of tolerance built in to them so even if they are over-torqued it's not dangerous. Tire shops over-torque the bolts all the time. The comedy comes when they check the torque. Of course the wrench is going to click at 90 ft-lb if the bolt is already tightened to 200 ft-lb with the air gun.
 

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Tire shops over-torque the bolts all the time.The comedy comes when they check the torque.
The comedy comes when you try to remove those over-torqued lugs with the factory lug wrench. That's why I carry a 2' breaker bar instead of the factory lug wrench, I've destroyed several trying to change a flat tire.
 

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I use anti seize on every time on I take a tire off have been for years for every car I own or work on. Never had an issue with it.
+1

I also put it on the back of the wheel where the wheel will contact the brake hub. Esp. steel winter wheels/tires. They use a TON of slat on the roads where I live.
 

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Any lube put on lug nuts throws the torque spec off.
I made the mistake of applying A S to my front wheels and the drivers side would loosen up until I got it all cleaned off.
 
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