[GrecianVolvo]

http://www.wbir.com/news/natio...34609

I guess, RSC (found in all XC90s plus some new Explorers, Expeditions, Navigators, etc.) would have been useful!

Yannis

 

[ig_mb]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (GrecianVolvo)

I saw the video on TV yesterday night.

I doubt RSC would have helped much in this particular situation. As much as I'm a big fan of RSC, in this case, the driver may have caused the initial rollover by oversteering and turning the car too far and too fast away from the direction of travel. That, plus the effect of returning to the highway from the shoulder was sufficient to tip it over. RSC would have had no effect on either one.

Unless RSC can shoot an anchor off the port side, the rollover would not have been avoided in the exact same situation with or without RSC.

At any rate, it is amazing that the driver survived with only minor injuries. I hope they catch the other driver and toss away the key. Not stopping after the fact is unforgivable.

 

[avolvofan]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (ig_mb)

That is why the XC90 has a roll cage constructed of boron steel.

 

[tmtalpey]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (ig_mb)

Actually, I think an XC90's DSTC combined with RSC would have possibly prevented this. The driver was on dirt and was overcorrecting when she hit the edge of the pavement. That shot the front of the vehicle back onto the road and the fronts grabbed pavement before the rear, the rears came around and then the car rolled.

DSTC would have decreased the intensity of the skid and given her enough control to avoid the overcorrection. That alone might have saved it, but RSC would have detected the rest. I predict an XC90 would have ended up on the left shoulder, pointing down the road.

Scary, eh?

Tom.

 

[GrecianVolvo]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (tmtalpey)

Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »

Actually, I think an XC90's DSTC combined with RSC would have possibly prevented this. The driver was on dirt and was overcorrecting when she hit the edge of the pavement. That shot the front of the vehicle back onto the road and the fronts grabbed pavement before the rear, the rears came around and then the car rolled. DSTC would have decreased the intensity of the skid and given her enough control to avoid the overcorrection. That alone might have saved it, but RSC would have detected the rest. I predict an XC90 would have ended up on the left shoulder, pointing down the road. Scary, eh? Tom.

I, totally, agree with Tom. Actually, I wanted to post a similar reply last night but I did not have the time. It is tough to predict since an XC90 was not involced but I agree that the combination of DSTC with the RSD going all out to prevent the initial loss of balance (hence, the start of roll over) would (probably) have prevented an XC90 from rolloing over in that fashion.

Pro drivers had performed (successfully) the moose avoidance test at speeds exceeding 70 mph... (yeah, I know it is not the same but the concept is the same -- avoiding a rollover in an accident avoidance panic maneuver).

Yannis

 

[pattyweb]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (GrecianVolvo)

Quote, originally posted by GrecianVolvo »

Pro drivers had performed (successfully) the moose avoidance test at speeds exceeding 70 mph... (yeah, I know it is not the same but the concept is the same -- avoiding a rollover in an accident avoidance panic maneuver).

IMO, concept is not even close to being the same. That driver did not try to avoid anything. They were bumped off course at high speed. No turning of the steering wheel or braking until the car was already thrown over some. Dynamics of the car were externally thrown off. Also, remember, soft banked shoulders.

In moose avoidance, you crank the wheel. Before the XC even deviates from the path, the rollover programming is already working for you to save you. Plus, flat pavement everywhere.

Would an XC90 not have rolled? Then great! What if it had rolled? Then at least we've got that much stronger a roof.

And remember, that driver WALKED away from that crash WITHOUT any of the extras that we have. Because they had their seatbelt on.

 

[Majisto]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (pattyweb)

The Explorer did very well considering it doesn't have the boron steel. I think Ford deserves credit for constructing an SUV that is much safer than people give it credit for. And people always seem to forget one thing that no computer system can compensate for...bad tires. Who knows what her tire pressure was? Speculating as to what the XC90 could do better is rather pointless don't you think?

 

[GrecianVolvo]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (pattyweb)

Quote, originally posted by pattyweb »

IMO, concept is not even close to being the same. That driver did not try to avoid anything. They were bumped off course at high speed. No turning of the steering wheel or braking until the car was already thrown over some. Dynamics of the car were externally thrown off. Also, remember, soft banked shoulders. In moose avoidance, you crank the wheel. Before the XC even deviates from the path, the rollover programming is already working for you to save you. Plus, flat pavement everywhere.

That is true but if we are going to assume certain things, then let's assume that the pavement between the road and the shoulder was smooth. Let us also assume that the cars "tapped", not crashed against each toher. I saw this, first, on TV. Much cleared picture and better focus than the clip I linked you to. The drivers tapped (if they did, who can really confirm that?) and then they both went different directions; the car realized what happenerd, panicked and cut to the right. The SUV driver did the same but to the left and then panicked even more (normal reaction for an untrained driver) and cut the wheel to the right with the results that followed.

The moose avoidance test is exactly that: AN EMRGENCY AVOIDANCE maneuver.

Again, I am not really claiming that an XC(0 would not have roled over. It could. But I think chances are that even if one of its wheels were to show a tendency to lift off the ground, chnaces are that it would not have rolled. But we will never know, will we?

Quote »

And remember, that driver WALKED away from that crash WITHOUT any of the extras that we have. Because they had their seatbelt on.

And THAT is the most important lesson for all!

Yannis

 

[BKNCOSD]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (GrecianVolvo)

One other factor to consider here.............I would bet you "dollars to donuts" (ya hadn't heard that one in awhile

)...that the cruise control was in use on the Explorer? Which...to me...would have compounded the issue by keeping constant power to the drive wheels! Plus...the driver may have slammed on the brakes forcing additional inertia to aid in the transfer of motion....
Fact is....even an "unskilled" driver who is "prepared" or anticpates an impending accident can disengage the cruise by tapping the brake...reduce their speed and try to keep the vehicle controlled. It all happens SO FAST...and much of our driving reactions are instinctive and subconscience reactions to what we see and sense.
In this case...I think the Explorer was caught completely off gaurd!

 

[Majisto]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (universityvolvoOSD)

The seatbelts were definitely the reason she lived. I can't believe the time when my cousins from New Orleans got in the back of the car and did not put their belts on. I didn't leave until they did. I'm not for most laws like helmet laws and seatbelt laws because they are mostly money-making ploys by cities, but I'm starting to believe they are needed. New Orleans has no seatbelt law. No wonder so many people die there in car accidents. All that engineering put into vehicles and people ruin it by not wearing a simple belt. It's sad.

Would you get on a roller coaster without a belt? People make such bad decisions sometimes...

 

[tmtalpey]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times

When I did the Volvo Drive for Life, one of the Skip Barber instructors told us they had tried and failed to get the XC90's anywhere near a roll. They were impressed, and so was I.

Sure, the Ford performed well in not coming apart in that barrel roll. And the driver cannot be faulted for the incident in any way. That's not the point of my earlier post though. My point is, I'm glad we chose the vehicle we did. I have every confidence in it.

Tom.

 

[pattyweb]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (GrecianVolvo)

Quote, originally posted by GrecianVolvo »

But we will never know, will we?

We will probably never know unless somebody comes up with a more realistic test or the unfortunate happens to an XC owner with a cop driving behind them. I'm just upset that Volvo doesn't provide more realistic tests for a feature no one else has.

I personally am NOT in favor of moose avoidance simulations carried out on a parking lot as a comparison to a real world incident. The moose avoidance has it's purpose in that a driver can get a better feel for what the car is capable of.

The moose avoidance test has no external influences on the test. Most real world incidents will have something external affecting the results.

Volvo could just have easily setup a moose avoidance test that would have the drivers turning off into a soft shoulder. Or into a small curb. But they didn't. Why?

What's more realistic? A driver travelling 70mph in a empty parking lot needing to avoid a moose? Or a driver on a two lane road avoiding something or being bumped off course that the majority of the time will have them then travelling into either a soft shoulder, another car, curb, barrier, etc?

What confuses me is why don't car manufacturers design cars that won't start or run unless the seat belt is on? Or at least make it a setting (that we don't get charged $$$ to change) for those of us that want to be reminded. Or a non disablable (is that a word?) warning tone. There are rare times, I've forgotten. It would be a nice reminder.

pat

 

[david]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (GrecianVolvo)

I can't believe that they survived that.

 

[GrecianVolvo]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (pattyweb)

Quote, originally posted by pattyweb »

I personally am NOT in favor of moose avoidance simulations carried out on a parking lot as a comparison to a real world incident. The moose avoidance has it's purpose in that a driver can get a better feel for what the car is capable of.

Quote »

The moose avoidance test has no external influences on the test. Most real world incidents will have something external affecting the results.

I disagree with your interpretation of the moose test's purpose. It is designed to simulate a panic move, which can result in a roll over.

Last year, I was on my way to Baltimore, going south on I-95. I was on the left lane of the Havre de Grace bridge. You do not want your car taking a dive off that bridge. Traffic was moderate and we were all travelling at about 45 mph or so. The truck in front of me was a LATE model Nissan Armada. I even remember the color; white. It was occupied by three Japanese couples. I was following them with a gap of, perhaps, 10 yards between their car and mine. The next to them (travelling at just about the same speed if not a tad faster) was a black sedan (I forget what type). The sedan is a hair further along than the Armada when it decided to merge left (I assume the Armada was in his blind spot, even though it was a huge truck). Armada driver reacted very sharply to avoid the collision. I tap my brakes and watched the Armada'sleft rear wheel lift off the ground. Driver overcorrected (like the lady in the video) and entered the lane where the black sedan was which had sped further forward. The Armada's right rear wheel was completely off the ground until the driver turned, again, the wheel to the left and after a few zig-zags the Armada settled down. All this as we were all slowing down, meaning it happened at a low speed. That truck ALMOST rolled over.

Quote »

Volvo could just have easily setup a moose avoidance test that would have the drivers turning off into a soft shoulder. Or into a small curb. But they didn't. Why?

Then, the added cost of THOUSANDS ruined XC(0s (suspension damage) would have been passed to consumers like you; I am sure you all would be screaming if an XC90 2.5T AWD started at $42,000 instead of $34,000+.

Quote »

What's more realistic? A driver travelling 70mph in a empty parking lot needing to avoid a moose? Or a driver on a two lane road avoiding something or being bumped off course that the majority of the time will have them then travelling into either a soft shoulder, another car, curb, barrier, etc?

I am sorry but I, respectfully, disagree. It is not as simple as you portrait it to be.

Quote »

What confuses me is why don't car manufacturers design cars that won't start or run unless the seat belt is on? Or at least make it a setting (that we don't get charged $$$ to change) for those of us that want to be reminded. Or a non disablable (is that a word?) warning tone. There are rare times, I've forgotten. It would be a nice reminder. pat

Awesome idea. Now, if you we could get the lawyers to lay off their sticky fingers off this one...

Yannis

 

[pattyweb]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (GrecianVolvo)

Quote, originally posted by GrecianVolvo »

I disagree with your interpretation of the moose test's purpose. It is designed to simulate a panic move, which can result in a roll over.

I understand the purpose of the moose test. My issue with the moose test is that it's a valid test in a very uncommon environment. It has a valid purpose. I don't think it's comparable to the real world scenario that started this thread. On that, we'll just disagree.

Quote, originally posted by GrecianVolvo »

Then, the added cost of THOUSANDS ruined XC(0s (suspension damage) would have been passed to consumers like you; I am sure you all would be screaming if an XC90 2.5T AWD started at $42,000 instead of $34,000+.

I highly doubt doing that test with a soft shoulder (or a banked pavement) would have ruined thousands of XC90s. The rear bearings already go bad anyways.

Unless of course, the XC90s would have rolled? In which case, do you want that false knowledge of thinking you won't roll in a more common environment? One test? Would that really hurt Volvo? I'm just really curious to know what would happen. Don't get me wrong. The moose test is very impressive and shows what the system is capable of and how it's superior to other vehicles (but not by the margin I was expecting), and we've got all that more safety backing us up. Unlike that armada, an XC90 would have maintained better control most likely. It's not just about not rolling over, it's also about staying in control longer.

Quote, originally posted by GrecianVolvo »

I am sorry but I, respectfully, disagree. It is not as simple as you portrait it to be.

Agreed, it isn't that simple to simulate real world cases.

Quote, originally posted by GrecianVolvo »

Awesome idea. Now, if you we could get the lawyers to lay off their sticky fingers off this one...

What confuses me is they'll readily annoy the heck out of the driver continually having to acknowledge the risks of using a navigation system, but then won't bother them with using their seatbelt.

 

[tmtalpey]

Re: Amazing video of a Ford Explorer rolling over 7 or 8 times (pattyweb)

Quote, originally posted by pattyweb »

I personally am NOT in favor of moose avoidance simulations carried out on a parking lot as a comparison to a real world incident. The moose avoidance has it's purpose in that a driver can get a better feel for what the car is capable of.

Actually, the moose test is a Swedish standard and all cars must pass it. Pretty interesting, if you ask me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_test

I sure learned a lot doing it.

Tom.

 

[r_driver04]

Defensive driving and accident avoidance training are definitely a must have for every driver. Sometimes there's nothing that can be done but there are other instances where training can mean the difference btw life and death. Volvo's rock.

 

[Majisto]

Re: (r_driver04)

Do you see this moose beforehand? A real test is to have it spring out of nowhere and see how the driver reacts. Knowing where the obstacle is going to be is not a good test.

 

[tmtalpey]

Re: (Majisto)

Quote, originally posted by Majisto »

A real test is to have it spring out of nowhere and see how the driver reacts.

You're describing a test of the driver. The moose test is a test of the car.

Tom.

 

[pattyweb]

Re: (tmtalpey)

Quote, originally posted by tmtalpey »

You're describing a test of the driver. The moose test is a test of the car

Exactly. And the 'Test' is always done by a pro driver that knows what he's doing and can manuever the car at high speeds. The 'Avoidance' demonstrations are done by people like us.

The pros will keep doing the test at different speeds to see how fast they can do it. The moose test isn't really an avoidance test because the driver knows exactly where they need to go. It's more a navigation test. Get around the moose as fast as you can?

How close to the moose does the driver need to get before he turns? I can picture for slower speeds the driver turning the wheel hard to get as close as possible to the moose. As they start going faster and faster they'll probably turn a little sooner and a little less abruptly so as to get around the moose and still stay in the course. The vehicle will pass.

Now do that test where the 'moose' abruptly pops up in front of the driver? I wonder how many drivers would still pass the test at upto x mph?

Just because a given vehicle can pass a moose test with a pro driver at x miles an hour doesn't mean it will pass at x with a novice driver. The novice may initially turn harder.The novice may not correct as smoothly. They may not correct at all. So many factors. This is not the vehicles fault

In the real world, we don't have that luxury. It's truly a panic. There's nothing panic about a 'moose avoidance' demonstration. Another reason why I think comparing it to the real world is not right.