[theshadow27]

Glad to see some sane discussion here, FWIW I dropped out when the "middle school girls" took over.

@Stephen.G.Fiddes - It seems like you have a handle on most of the concepts, but I'll try to refine a bit.

PWM (which is Pulse Width Modulation, btw) does have almost everything to do with WMM failure, specifically because it produces large voltage spikes, or transients, on the power rails each time the ballast tries to restart the bulb. I do agree that this problem is aggravated by cheap ballasts that have a minimal power filter.

EMI does not kill microchips, to the contrary, electronic devices are built to tolerate EMI (per FCC regulations) and not produce it when operated within their design specification. Voltage - specifically, either in excess of the breakdown voltage of the body diodes within the integrated circuit or sufficiently negative to forward bias them (typically, -0.7v without additional design consideration) - is what causes the failure. The large voltage spikes basically burn through the silicon oxide insulating substrate the the transistors inside the chip are sitting on, shorting them out.

This sort of voltage isn't likely wirelessly transmitted from the HV lines in the ballasts. Direct inductive coupling is nearly impossible - the bulb wires are < 1' long and don't run parallel to other wires for a significant distance, and the current is low. For RF coupling, the supply impedance (or internal resistance of the car battery) is very low, which makes any power wire a poor receiving antenna. Even the data wires are 120ohm terminated (for exactly this reason) preventing standing waves from forming. Only the direct discharge of a large inductor (the ignition choke) into the power system is capable of producing a WMM killing transient.

As a counterexample: The ignition system fires at a much higher voltage (30kV vs 4kV) and current (A vs mA) thousands of times per second minute. This does not produce voltage transients on the electrical system - although it does produce significant EMI that the rest of the car is designed to deal with.

That said, your conclusion:

- If I were to run the OEM Headlight power, down to the fog lights, the CEM would see the fog light bulbs and that will avoid the BOW (may have to convert to 55w fogs)
- I can then use that same wire going down to the fog light bulbs, to trigger the relay on the HID Harness, which will have the ballasts drawing power directly from the battery, and grounded to the chassis.

This wiring configuration will have my headlight switch working exactly as it should, fog light wires stay disconnected, and the fog lights turn on with the headlights. It SHOULD also prevent blowing up a WMM.

Is correct, your protection will be in the relay harness which has a separate ground point.

FYI, moving a ground point changes things because the ground system is not a perfect conductor. Each foot of wire, each splice, and each connector add measurable resistance which affects the voltage differentials produced by a given current. This is why high-powered amplifiers use bigger wires than, say, turn signals. Typically, we consider the chassis to be a nearly ideal conductor, but the WMM does not ground directly to the chassis. It happens to splice into a ground that is shared with the headlights, which allows spikes relative to the supply rail.

I think you missed my point that I took out of this thread on the WMM failure... I'll be disabling the PWM prior to doing anything (or at least it will be circumvented by wiring through the relay harness discussed later). But from what blaze was saying (ok, halfway saying without telling his full solution), It has nothing to do with backfeed through the wiring, rather electromagnetic (AKA, radio wave style) interference. This makes sense because it's known that it's a microchip that goes out on the WMM, and EMI can easily fry a microchip if it hits it at the right resonant frequency. Therefore a diode wouldn't do anything if that's the case, nor would the PWM Have any affect on it. Rather, poor quality ballasts and bad shielding to prevent this EMI from escaping the wiring between the ballast and the bulb socket, and getting into other electronics that may not be properly shielded (WMM). So adding extra proper shielding SHOULD in theory prevent this. (Note: I understand that the PWM is still an issue for the ballasts, but I think people have honed in so bloody far on the PWM, they're looking with tunnel vision vs big picture) (note2: I could be off base on that observation of what I read out of the thread, and may be able to do more testing after I get my car tomorrow, but to me with my little bit or electrical and ham radio knowledge it makes sense. Especially considering that people have killed the wiper motor with all other given circumstances that have been tried.

Sorry if you think I have tunnel vision - it's not. Besides my background in EE, I've been a ham since 98 (KG4AUW) and am an Extra. Without education, I can see how both sides can seem reasonable, at which point it becomes a popularity contest. But as far as scientific method, experimentation, and documentation go, there is just nothing to support that shielding the HV wires does any good. I'd be glad to be proven wrong - always open to learning something.

Wiring: I don't want a BOWE because that spells Heat and wasted electricity to me It's not that complex of wiring to get to the fogs. I'll be running 2 pairs of wires (one from each headlight socket, down to the fog light), with a (+) branch coming off of one of the pairs to trigger the relay... No permanent modification to the vehicle.

Actually, unlike a resistor harness, the KBOWE that I designed produces (virtually) no heat. It averages out the PWM waveform and produces a slightly lower voltage. The only loss is the ESR of the capacitors, which being large electrolytic types, is quite low (a few mOhms max, much lower than the headlight connectors themselves).

The fog modification is much simpler, actually, if you don't mind running a few wires. I personally think that it's more reliable in the long term since eventually capacitors will lose electrolyte. My problem is that it requires the fogs on all the time, which *does* waste power since they produce virtually no useful light. Worse, having them permanently wired to the headlights defeats the entire purpose: the correct use of fogs is to allow driving at low speed in deep fog with the headlights off to reduce glare

 

[NorthwestMoose]

Hi guys, just joining the convo here.

I gather that Volvo uses pwm to dim the LED DRL's which are outside the headlight cluster, yes?

And the pwm wreaks havoc in the system, but what's the actual impact/symptoms?

I've been researching and this kit seems to be of pretty good quality/reputable company. https://www.theretrofitsource.com/c...xenon-morimoto-stage-iv-kit.html#.VvDYC_BHarU

With Denso OEM ballasts and a canbus specific relay/harness, will that solve the above issues?

I've got a 2014 xc60, but this seems like the most technical thread on the general topic.

Thanks!

 

[theshadow27]

I've got a 2014 xc60, but this seems like the most technical thread on the general topic.

Unfortunately the XC60 electrical system is totally unrelated to the P1 S40/V50/C30/C70 - basically nothing that you read here on PWM is likely applicable to your car, which is a decedent of the P2 platform. And the problem we have is extremely specific, I haven't seen such low frequency PWM anywhere else.

TRS are good guys, they will lead you in the right direction. Don't follow anything posted in this thread!

Good luck. :beer:

 

[NorthwestMoose]

ah ha! VERY good to know. Thanks for steering me (away) in the right direction.

I've got to say, I really admire the dedication and technical know-how on display here.

Thanks again!

 

[Stephen.G.Fiddes]

Glad to see some sane discussion here, FWIW I dropped out when the "middle school girls" took over.

@Stephen.G.Fiddes - It seems like you have a handle on most of the concepts, but I'll try to refine a bit.

PWM (which is Pulse Width Modulation, btw) does have almost everything to do with WMM failure, specifically because it produces large voltage spikes, or transients, on the power rails each time the ballast tries to restart the bulb. I do agree that this problem is aggravated by cheap ballasts that have a minimal power filter.

EMI does not kill microchips, to the contrary, electronic devices are built to tolerate EMI (per FCC regulations) and not produce it when operated within their design specification. Voltage - specifically, either in excess of the breakdown voltage of the body diodes within the integrated circuit or sufficiently negative to forward bias them (typically, -0.7v without additional design consideration) - is what causes the failure. The large voltage spikes basically burn through the silicon oxide insulating substrate the the transistors inside the chip are sitting on, shorting them out.

This sort of voltage isn't likely wirelessly transmitted from the HV lines in the ballasts. Direct inductive coupling is nearly impossible - the bulb wires are < 1' long and don't run parallel to other wires for a significant distance, and the current is low. For RF coupling, the supply impedance (or internal resistance of the car battery) is very low, which makes any power wire a poor receiving antenna. Even the data wires are 120ohm terminated (for exactly this reason) preventing standing waves from forming. Only the direct discharge of a large inductor (the ignition choke) into the power system is capable of producing a WMM killing transient.

As a counterexample: The ignition system fires at a much higher voltage (30kV vs 4kV) and current (A vs mA) thousands of times per second minute. This does not produce voltage transients on the electrical system - although it does produce significant EMI that the rest of the car is designed to deal with.

That said, your conclusion:

- If I were to run the OEM Headlight power, down to the fog lights, the CEM would see the fog light bulbs and that will avoid the BOW (may have to convert to 55w fogs)
- I can then use that same wire going down to the fog light bulbs, to trigger the relay on the HID Harness, which will have the ballasts drawing power directly from the battery, and grounded to the chassis.

This wiring configuration will have my headlight switch working exactly as it should, fog light wires stay disconnected, and the fog lights turn on with the headlights. It SHOULD also prevent blowing up a WMM.

Is correct, your protection will be in the relay harness which has a separate ground point.

FYI, moving a ground point changes things because the ground system is not a perfect conductor. Each foot of wire, each splice, and each connector add measurable resistance which affects the voltage differentials produced by a given current. This is why high-powered amplifiers use bigger wires than, say, turn signals. Typically, we consider the chassis to be a nearly ideal conductor, but the WMM does not ground directly to the chassis. It happens to splice into a ground that is shared with the headlights, which allows spikes relative to the supply rail.

I think you missed my point that I took out of this thread on the WMM failure... I'll be disabling the PWM prior to doing anything (or at least it will be circumvented by wiring through the relay harness discussed later). But from what blaze was saying (ok, halfway saying without telling his full solution), It has nothing to do with backfeed through the wiring, rather electromagnetic (AKA, radio wave style) interference. This makes sense because it's known that it's a microchip that goes out on the WMM, and EMI can easily fry a microchip if it hits it at the right resonant frequency. Therefore a diode wouldn't do anything if that's the case, nor would the PWM Have any affect on it. Rather, poor quality ballasts and bad shielding to prevent this EMI from escaping the wiring between the ballast and the bulb socket, and getting into other electronics that may not be properly shielded (WMM). So adding extra proper shielding SHOULD in theory prevent this. (Note: I understand that the PWM is still an issue for the ballasts, but I think people have honed in so bloody far on the PWM, they're looking with tunnel vision vs big picture) (note2: I could be off base on that observation of what I read out of the thread, and may be able to do more testing after I get my car tomorrow, but to me with my little bit or electrical and ham radio knowledge it makes sense. Especially considering that people have killed the wiper motor with all other given circumstances that have been tried.

Sorry if you think I have tunnel vision - it's not. Besides my background in EE, I've been a ham since 98 (KG4AUW) and am an Extra. Without education, I can see how both sides can seem reasonable, at which point it becomes a popularity contest. But as far as scientific method, experimentation, and documentation go, there is just nothing to support that shielding the HV wires does any good. I'd be glad to be proven wrong - always open to learning something.

Wiring: I don't want a BOWE because that spells Heat and wasted electricity to me It's not that complex of wiring to get to the fogs. I'll be running 2 pairs of wires (one from each headlight socket, down to the fog light), with a (+) branch coming off of one of the pairs to trigger the relay... No permanent modification to the vehicle.

Actually, unlike a resistor harness, the KBOWE that I designed produces (virtually) no heat. It averages out the PWM waveform and produces a slightly lower voltage. The only loss is the ESR of the capacitors, which being large electrolytic types, is quite low (a few mOhms max, much lower than the headlight connectors themselves).

The fog modification is much simpler, actually, if you don't mind running a few wires. I personally think that it's more reliable in the long term since eventually capacitors will lose electrolyte. My problem is that it requires the fogs on all the time, which *does* waste power since they produce virtually no useful light. Worse, having them permanently wired to the headlights defeats the entire purpose: the correct use of fogs is to allow driving at low speed in deep fog with the headlights off to reduce glare

Very very good explination, and I apologize for the "tunnel vision" accusation. That makes much better sense than the rest of the thread did to me with all the drama.

Well, in that case I'll do exactly what I stated with the wiring and DRL delete, but move the grounds as far away from the WMM as possible and call it a day, with much confidence.

I drive wth fogs on all the time to increase visibility to oncoming drivers. We rarely get fog here, and when we do, I generally can't work anyways so I'm not driving anywhere. (Or i could take the wife's car).

That said, we'll probably get an oddball HEAVY fog bank right after I do this with my luck :joy::joy::joy:

PS: KE7NRH, general, been studying off and on for my extra for a while, just don't have a lot of time to invest in it due to business being great! (A good problem to have!). I've got a 10/20/40 M beam up if you ever want to chat on the air. :+1:

 

[theshadow27]

Glad to help

Very very good explination, and I apologize for the "tunnel vision" accusation. That makes much better sense than the rest of the thread did to me with all the drama.

Well, in that case I'll do exactly what I stated with the wiring and DRL delete, but move the grounds as far away from the WMM as possible and call it a day, with much confidence.

The ground point in question is actually not near the WMM, it's at the passenger-side strut. You can follow it in the wiring diagram I have on my site:

Page 26: The ground point 31/110 is listed as "Right MacPherson strut tower"
Page 59: The headlight (group 35) low beams, specifically right side 10/2, ground via junction 63/109 -> junction 63/108 -> ground point 31/110 (right strut)
Page 74: WMM (6/1) grounds through pin3 -> junction 63/108 -> ground point 31/110 (right strut tower). The CEM itself grounds at A:14 -> junction 63/12 -> ground point 31/84 (passenger side A-post)
Page 171: The junction 63/108 is buried in the engine harness, right side with a good amount of distance to the ground point 31/110

It's the parasitic resistance between 63/108 and 31/110 which allows voltage to develop between the CEM ground and the WMM ground, potentially bringing the LIN bus voltage on pin 1 negative enough to forward bias the clamp diodes. The HID ballast ground can be anywhere so that it is not within the 31/84-31/110 current path, anywhere on the driver side (including the battery) or forward of the struts is ok on US aka LHD cars.

I've got a 10/20/40 M beam up if you ever want to chat

Still fighting the HOA on getting a real HF antenna up and been too busy to tinker with hiding one :/ It's on my someday list though

 

[alyn-acn]

Ok!
My car has DRL off (I think), because in position 0 headlights are off!
I bought some OEM VALEO D1S ballast (from a citroen) and a set of Bosch E46 bi-xenon projectors!
I have to buy a set of D2S bulbs and an adaptor from D1S cable to D2S bulbs!
My question is : this combination will work, or it will cause WMM failure??
Thanks!

 

[theshadow27]

My car has DRL off (I think), because in position 0 headlights are off! ... OEM VALEO D1S ballast (from a citroen) ...
My question is : this combination will work, or it will cause WMM failure??

DRL disable removes PWM, which prevents the ballasts from restarting continuously, but they still start when the headlights turn on, so the potential for damage is still present. DRL-only installs have resulted in WMM failure after an extended period of time.

My recommendation is still the KBOWE per the instructions here, or at the very least an alternate ground point. If you want to know why, the details are here.

Edit: PS his snake oil doesn't work:

Now for the bad news. Like Kyle Mention in the post about having trouble fiering his Hid well guess what same thing happend to me after i turned my car off and turned it back on just to be sure that it was official.

The Hid fired up for about a second then went off and after that i have to turn off the car and try it again and again i get the same results. Now i kinda found a trick on how to get it to fire up again.

What i did was turn the car off completley took off the key from the ignition. After i done all that i pull the turn signel hand tords me and it turns on all my lights Fog,Low beams, city lights except for the high beams so it even turns on the Hid.

So then i turn on the car and quickly turn on my lights and boom there you go it works! no Bow msg no flickering absolutly no problem.

So im thinking that the Hid has to be Worme up first before you turn on your car. what do you guys think the problem is that the car when its on and the Ballast are cold they Dont fire up?

i will post pictures when i get home around 6pm tonight so guys please help and any comments are welcomed.

This is because the warning canceller is not fully working for your case (S40).
Some cars like the BMW Serie 1 won't work with almost any kind of canceller.

The HID kit does not have always the same consum.
During the start up it uses a lot more energy than when it is already working for a couple of minutes.
Also the same thing happen when is really cold & the bulbs need much more energy to get they working temperature.

If you have been using the bulbs recently, turn them off & turn them on again you will see how the start up is much faster & needs much less energy.
This also could cause the problem you are talking about.

 

[alyn-acn]

Thanks for advice! I already read those topic!
I will ground separately headlight and see what happened! If WMM failure, I will make that KBOWE of yours!

 

[phish]

I think what we need here is a How-To thread for simple minded folk like me

 

[theshadow27]

I think what we need here is a How-To thread for simple minded folk like me

There is a How To in my signature (been there since 2009).

I spent a lot of effort distilling the design to the simplest, most available, least expensive, and as easy to assemble as I can possibly imagine. There's two (2!!) electrical components per headlight, the rest is wire and glue. There are detailed assembly and debugging steps with pictures. I kept all of the technical mumbo-jumbo out of the way in it's own thread.

If there's anything I can clarify, I'm all ears just let me know

 

[msmith]

Shadow, it's good to see you back. I was wondering what happened to you, then read through some of the mud flinging and understood.

 

[theshadow27]

Shadow, it's good to see you back. I was wondering what happened to you, then read through some of the mud flinging and understood.

Never left, nor will I as long as the S40 is running. But yeah, when folks get all hyped up on crap like kaixen and blazedani I don't have the time/energy to argue with ignorant fanatics. Much easier to just step back and let the test of time sort it out

 

[alyn-acn]

I have an idea! What about if I change ground point of WMM? I think is easier than to change headlights ground point! Or maybe ground WMM directly to battery?!?!

 

[phish]

There is a How To in my signature (been there since 2009).

I spent a lot of effort distilling the design to the simplest, most available, least expensive, and as easy to assemble as I can possibly imagine. There's two (2!!) electrical components per headlight, the rest is wire and glue. There are detailed assembly and debugging steps with pictures. I kept all of the technical mumbo-jumbo out of the way in it's own thread.

If there's anything I can clarify, I'm all ears just let me know

Didn't see that there! Thanks

 

[theshadow27]

I have an idea! What about if I change ground point of WMM? I think is easier than to change headlights ground point! Or maybe ground WMM directly to battery?!?!

You would not think it's easier after trying to access the WMM wires The windshield wiper arms and the plastic cowl spanning the bottom of the windshield have to be removed. If you manage to do that without breaking all the clips, or breaking off parts of the wiper arm aluminum casting (which *will* be corroded to the axle, guaranteed), the wires on the harness there are very short so there is no room to make the splices. But if you do somehow get a new ground wire spliced in reliably (with adhesive filled heat-shrink butt connectors), you have to drill a hole through the firewall, which means removing the heat shield and plastic cover(s), and probably the battery and tray unless you want a ton of extra wire. Then get the whole thing back together... That's 4-6 hours if you have done it before and nothing goes wrong.

Even after all of that, you still have not fixed the underlying issue, there is still risk damage of damage to the CEM, and your ballasts will die...

If instead you fix the root of the problem, the WMM ground is a non-issue. So why bother?

 

[alyn-acn]

I do already removed the windshield wiper arms without breaking anny clips! I done that to clean under the plastic cowl, it was a lot of mud under there! And if i done that, I greased the wiper arms and the motor to! And all that, took me about 2-3 hours!
But you have right, it is easier to ground headlight than to change WMM ground point!

 

[blazedani]

Never left, nor will I as long as the S40 is running. But yeah, when folks get all hyped up on crap like kaixen and blazedani I don't have the time/energy to argue with ignorant fanatics. Much easier to just step back and let the test of time sort it out

Yes, exactly.
Few ignorant fanatics here... leading everybody in the wrong direction & recommending people to do things that will end up with a broken motor.
While insulting anyone new bringing solutions to the problem.

The thread has advanced so much more & in the right direction (EMI interferences) since you haven't been around.
On top of ignorant about the issue you wouldn't allow anyone to help in the matter with new ideas.

Most of the info in the thread is wrong and some have broken their motor thanks to your advices.
You did good staying away & letting "the time" (new people with new ideas) to work on the issue.

As some said I solved the problem a while ago.
And I don't hide anything about the solution.
Chinese HID kits have high voltage cables. (including TRS ballasts)
None of the modern original ballasts use High Voltage cables.
All manufacturers stopped using the old ballasts with high voltage because of the interferences problems.
The solution was just to copy how original HID ballasts works since 2003-2005.

Chinese HID kits are still using 20 years old HID technology.
Way different than the tech used in modern Hella, Valeo, Mitsubishi ballasts.

 

[jondevieonS40]

Can we stop with the shade throwing already I hardly get bugged by others drama but it saddens me to see smart dudes/ dudettes having a d**k measuring contest with no gain, I'm not asking y'all to be friends but digging threw the "drama " to see your valuable points is tiring.

I agree with phish i think we need to consolidate all the "good" info on here and get a no BS how too guide, I get a solution has been found but I still don't understand and id like to think I'm not a complete idiot, an a**hole maybe but not an idiot.

Here's some data for ya
Been running morimoto 55w slim kit for over a year now.

6000k

Only issue I've had is my left ballast has moisture damage keeping the bulb from heating up and the contacts need to keep being cleaned and bent to work.

I like the idea of the fogs staying on my idea for that was just splicing them with the day runners as I'm running LED fogs anyway. Thoughts?

Also are the day runners the DRLs ?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[jschinito]

my morimoto xb35 (latest generation with external d2s ignitors, like oem) have been working fine, as well, for a year.... no wiper motor issues. the emi interference theory makes sense to me which is why i am using the newer morimoto ballasts instead of older ones with the c70. i've had no issues with older morimoto ballasts in our hondas

morimoto canbus harness works great to ensure no "bulb-out warning" with the hid kit