2015 V60 Drive-E with bad pistons/rings

20348 Views 141 Replies 25 Participants Last post by MyVolvoS60, 5 mo ago

orduck

Discussion Starter · Sep 30, 2018 (Edited)

It's official. You can add our V60 to the is list. After a hand full of visits to our local dealer, some failed attempts at fixes (second round of new plugs in less than a year, combustion chamber clean, new breather box), and an oil consumption test resulting in over a 1qt loss in in under 500 miles, the service techs and Volvo are recommending replacing the pistons. Unfortunately for me, we are out of warranty at 60k+. We are waiting to hear back this week if Volvo is going to help out with some good will, fingers crossed.

I'm mostly frustrated that I didn't come across this forum a year earlier when we first really started to notice the oil consumption between our 40k service and the first time we brought it in due to a cylinder misfire at 55k, at our neighborhood shop.

To date we have not personally spoken to VCNA. The dealer service has been pretty good, assuming they are actually honest people and you can believe what they are saying to you. They have been communicating with Volvo all along so I have not seen the need to go that rout. The question is whether or not talking to VCNA directly, before even having an answer, is a good idea?

41 - 60 of 142 Posts

Tech

· #41 · Jan 10, 2019

Sorry, I didn't re-read the whole thread.

If the box fails, it can cause excessive consumption. The redesigned the part for a reason.

Do I honestly think that is the cause? Probably not, but what I think or what the tech thinks doesn't matter. It needs to be done first. That's why there are Tech Journals for us.

Dyno

· #42 · Jan 10, 2019 (Edited)

meade18 said:
I have never asked for goodwill. I have a warranty that I am hoping will cover defective piston rings. I just wanted Volvo to admit that a breather box can't be the cause of burning ~6 qts of oil the past ~2,500 miles and go ahead and admit I need new rings. I just wanted someone to act like a real mechanic and not just follow a checklist like a level 1 help desk worker.

The ironic part is that at the top of every Technical Journal (Volvo's version of a service bulletin) is a slogan:

"Right first time in time"

I'm about to bet $500 that they won't live up to it. And if I'm right, I won't win anything.

1. Volvo is NOT going to admit it can't be the breather box because it CAN
2. Real mechanics are REQUIRED to follow certain checklists. This is a key component to quality control.

Example about the checklist thing... I can imagine a mechanic (or anyone, really) saying "NAH, It ain't the breather box" and then launching into $5000 of unnecessary repairs. Oops. Sorry that it didn't work Mr. Customer, but you authorized the work, so...

Tech

· #43 · Jan 10, 2019

Extended warranty companies know about bulletins in many cases. They aren't going to buy pistons if there is a bulletin that applies for the problem.

Kjmack

· #44 · Jan 10, 2019

So why doesn't Volvo do a tab/recall on all the breather boxes ? Obviously they know there not good .

Tech

· #45 · Jan 10, 2019

If the car has an oil consumption problem under warranty and the car and engine fit the bulletin, then it gets replaced.

They aren't going to issue a recall for everything addressed in a bulletin.

Kjmack

· #46 · Jan 10, 2019

This is for Tech . So what's your opinion of the OW20 Volvo approved oil ? You see many S60s using it . Not that my opinion matters but I know the flashpoint is quit a bit lower than 0W30 that can't be good when it comes to oil control rings . They get gummed up and oil won't flow into piston . Am I way off base ?

meade18

· #47 · Jan 10, 2019

Dyno said:
1. Volvo is NOT going to admit it can't be the breather box because it CAN
2. Real mechanics are REQUIRED to follow certain checklists. This is a key component to quality control.

Example about the checklist thing... I can imagine a mechanic (or anyone, really) saying "NAH, It ain't the breather box" and then launching into $5000 of unnecessary repairs. Oops. Sorry that it didn't work Mr. Customer, but you authorized the work, so...

It CAN for me? Are you willing to bet me $500 that my problem is the breather box?

Tech

· #48 · Jan 10, 2019

The 0W20 is for the Drive E in "extreme driving conditions".

Otherwise use 5W30.

Tech

· #49 · Jan 10, 2019 (Edited)

meade18 said:
Dyno said:

1. Volvo is NOT going to admit it can't be the breather box because it CAN
2. Real mechanics are REQUIRED to follow certain checklists. This is a key component to quality control.

Example about the checklist thing... I can imagine a mechanic (or anyone, really) saying "NAH, It ain't the breather box" and then launching into $5000 of unnecessary repairs. Oops. Sorry that it didn't work Mr. Customer, but you authorized the work, so...

Click to expand...

It CAN for me? Are you willing to bet me $500 that my problem is the breather box?

Yes, it can (assuming your engine is in the range for the bulletin). There is a bulletin and an updated part for a reason. As he said, you can either do that or not. It's your choice. No one is going to pay for pistons until that's done. Unless you want to pay for them. Labor for the breather box would overlap since the head comes off, so you can get it done at the same time.

meade18

· #50 · Jan 10, 2019

Tech said:
Extended warranty companies know about bulletins in many cases. They aren't going to buy pistons if there is a bulletin that applies for the problem.

Are you saying that the warranty company wouldn't cover the rings/pistons unless I did all the things in the previous bulletins first? If so, that is a good point. That will make me feel slightly better about burning $500 through my engine like it were a case of oil.

meade18

· #51 · Jan 10, 2019 (Edited)

Tech said:
Yes, it can (assuming your engine is in the range for the bulletin). There is a bulletin and an updated part for a reason. As he said, you can either do that or not. It's your choice. No one is going to pay for pistons until that's done. Unless you want to pay for them. Labor for the breather box would overlap since the head comes off, so you can get it done at the same time.

Well, if this repair fixes it, I will be happy I lost my $500 bet. But I'm not holding my breath. Have you personally had cars with 1 qt or more of oil consumption per 1,000 miles be 100% fixed after having the breather box replaced and did not need a piston/ring job?

meade18

· #52 · Jan 10, 2019

Tech said:
Sorry, I didn't re-read the whole thread.

If the box fails, it can cause excessive consumption. The redesigned the part for a reason.

Do I honestly think that is the cause? Probably not, but what I think or what the tech thinks doesn't matter. It needs to be done first. That's why there are Tech Journals for us.

Sorry, I replied to your newer posts first. I should have replied to this one first. This is actually the attitude with dealerships that makes me (and so many other people) not want to use them.

You said "if the box fails..." The box is right on top of the engine. Replacing the box takes 30 minutes. Yet they are recommending it be replaced (and reprogrammed) to the tune of $500 without ever taking the 30 minutes to look at the damn box and see if it is broken/clogged/whatever! THAT IS NOT MECHANIC WORK. What the Tech thinks SHOULD matter. I would gladly pay for the 30 minutes of diagnostic work for a mechanic to look at the box, see whether it needs to be replaced, and THEN, if it is broken, follow the TJ step by step. But if it is not broken, I expect them to tell the Volvo Tech line they should skip the breather box replacement TJ and move on.

Is that really too much to ask?

Tech

· #53 · Jan 10, 2019

I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with the idea in general. But we have protocol we need to follow when under warranty or we don't get paid.

You are out of warranty but have an extended warranty so the same rules apply in most cases.

But if someone was out of warranty and my opinion is the car needs rings, if I tell them it needs rings and I replace the box at the same time, they are going to either decline the work or call Volvo. Then Volvo will say the bulletin needs to be done first and here we are.

We can't just remove the box to see if it is the cause. We would need to damage the box to check, and then you need a new one. Bulletins are for warranty purposes in general because if there is a bulletin, Volvo doesn't pay is any diagnosis. So if a Drive E comes in under warranty for oil consumption and it fits the bulletin, I put a box on (assumimg no external leaks and within the oil change interval) because that is all I'm paid to do.

At the dealer I work at, we've done a few breather boxes. I had one come back needing pistons. Another guy had an engine. Otherwise I haven't seen any others back. I don't know exactly how many we had or how long ago they've been done, I haven't really been tracking them. I'd estimate we've done 10 or fewer though. So not a huge sample size.

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Venth

· #54 · Jan 11, 2019

Tech said:
I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with the idea in general. But we have protocol we need to follow when under warranty or we don't get paid.

You are out of warranty but have an extended warranty so the same rules apply in most cases.

But if someone was out of warranty and my opinion is the car needs rings, if I tell them it needs rings and I replace the box at the same time, they are going to either decline the work or call Volvo. Then Volvo will say the bulletin needs to be done first and here we are.

We can't just remove the box to see if it is the cause. We would need to damage the box to check, and then you need a new one. Bulletins are for warranty purposes in general because if there is a bulletin, Volvo doesn't pay is any diagnosis. So if a Drive E comes in under warranty for oil consumption and it fits the bulletin, I put a box on (assumimg no external leaks and within the oil change interval) because that is all I'm paid to do.

At the dealer I work at, we've done a few breather boxes. I had one come back needing pistons. Another guy had an engine. Otherwise I haven't seen any others back. I don't know exactly how many we had or how long ago they've been done, I haven't really been tracking them. I'd estimate we've done 10 or fewer though. So not a huge sample size.

This is great. Thanks for the insight.

Did you ever need to drop the engine and trans to do piston/rings? How many hours?

Tech

· #55 · Jan 11, 2019

I have done rings in one Drive-E. The engine and trans stay in the car.

I don't remember what it paid, I think it was around 10 hours for warranty. Customer pay would be more. Haven't had any customer pay and doubt I will because of goodwill.

meade18

· #56 · Jan 11, 2019

Tech said:
I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with the idea in general. But we have protocol we need to follow when under warranty or we don't get paid.

You are out of warranty but have an extended warranty so the same rules apply in most cases.

But if someone was out of warranty and my opinion is the car needs rings, if I tell them it needs rings and I replace the box at the same time, they are going to either decline the work or call Volvo. Then Volvo will say the bulletin needs to be done first and here we are.

We can't just remove the box to see if it is the cause. We would need to damage the box to check, and then you need a new one. Bulletins are for warranty purposes in general because if there is a bulletin, Volvo doesn't pay is any diagnosis. So if a Drive E comes in under warranty for oil consumption and it fits the bulletin, I put a box on (assumimg no external leaks and within the oil change interval) because that is all I'm paid to do.

At the dealer I work at, we've done a few breather boxes. I had one come back needing pistons. Another guy had an engine. Otherwise I haven't seen any others back. I don't know exactly how many we had or how long ago they've been done, I haven't really been tracking them. I'd estimate we've done 10 or fewer though. So not a huge sample size.

This is super useful to know. I really appreciate your contributions to my threads on this. Thank you Tech!

Seaway

· #57 · Jan 11, 2019

Tech said:
I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with the idea in general. But we have protocol we need to follow when under warranty or we don't get paid.

You are out of warranty but have an extended warranty so the same rules apply in most cases.

But if someone was out of warranty and my opinion is the car needs rings, if I tell them it needs rings and I replace the box at the same time, they are going to either decline the work or call Volvo. Then Volvo will say the bulletin needs to be done first and here we are.

We can't just remove the box to see if it is the cause. We would need to damage the box to check, and then you need a new one. Bulletins are for warranty purposes in general because if there is a bulletin, Volvo doesn't pay is any diagnosis. So if a Drive E comes in under warranty for oil consumption and it fits the bulletin, I put a box on (assumimg no external leaks and within the oil change interval) because that is all I'm paid to do.

At the dealer I work at, we've done a few breather boxes. I had one come back needing pistons. Another guy had an engine. Otherwise I haven't seen any others back. I don't know exactly how many we had or how long ago they've been done, I haven't really been tracking them. I'd estimate we've done 10 or fewer though. So not a huge sample size.

How small a percentage of these engines that you have seen would you say have had oil consumption problems whether related to bad rings or bad breather boxes? 10%? 5%?

Tech

· #58 · Jan 11, 2019

I'd say a very small percentage. We are pretty busy and see plenty of Drive E cars. But the problem updated breather box and updated pistons are already in most of them. I don't know how many early ones we have vs. how many of those have had consumption issues.

Highwayman

· #59 · Jan 11, 2019 (Edited)

meade18 said:
Yeah, I don't live in Atlanta, so that ain't gonna happen. Nor would that dealer do anything for me since I was never their customer and won't be in the future. I saw some service records from the old owner and it doesn't look like it got much service done at the dealer anyway. It's been escalated to Volvo Cars USA's Tech Hotline through my dealer. It's nice that you would say I should qualify for a trade of some sort, but that is not how dealerships handle issues with 3 year old cars with 80,000 miles. From what I have read on this board, Volvo Cars USA is being cool by assisting some folks with goodwill discounts on piston ring repairs. I'm just trying to get to the point where they say I need piston rings without spending an additional $500 on a breather box. Unfortunately, based on the email I just got from Volvo Cars USA, it looks like that ain't gonna happen.

Here's the email:

Tough spot to be in. I will say that VCNA has approved a $2000 goodwill offer in my case where my rings cause me to burn a quart every 1K. The job costs $4000 for the Volvo dealer where I bought my car. Not sure what indy shops may charge. It's still a good car that needs the right attention. Perhaps search for Volvo indys around your area.

Is there are a thread on the board that lists reputable Volvo indys that work for less ? Anybody know ? Thanks

halfast3

· #60 · Jan 11, 2019

meade18 said:
Well, if this repair fixes it, I will be happy I lost my $500 bet. But I'm not holding my breath. Have you personally had cars with 1 qt or more of oil consumption per 1,000 miles be 100% fixed after having the breather box replaced and did not need a piston/ring job?

There are lots of causes of high oil loss when the rings are good. A classic example is late 70s - early 80s water cooled VWs with bad valve stem seals.

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