[meade18]

It's official. You can add our V60 to the is list. After a hand full of visits to our local dealer, some failed attempts at fixes (second round of new plugs in less than a year, combustion chamber clean, new breather box), and an oil consumption test resulting in over a 1qt loss in in under 500 miles, the service techs and Volvo are recommending replacing the pistons. Unfortunately for me, we are out of warranty at 60k+. We are waiting to hear back this week if Volvo is going to help out with some good will, fingers crossed.

I'm mostly frustrated that I didn't come across this forum a year earlier when we first really started to notice the oil consumption between our 40k service and the first time we brought it in due to a cylinder misfire at 55k, at our neighborhood shop.

To date we have not personally spoken to VCNA. The dealer service has been pretty good, assuming they are actually honest people and you can believe what they are saying to you. They have been communicating with Volvo all along so I have not seen the need to go that rout. The question is whether or not talking to VCNA directly, before even having an answer, is a good idea?

Ugh. Now I'm concerned about how many visits to the dealer I'll have to make to get my problem sorted out. I bought the extended warranty, but only the powertrain coverage, so I assume all my trips to the dealer are going to cost money until they finally decide to replace the piston rings.

 

[meade18]

Update: We agreed to cover some more hours of diagnostic/engine tare down costs in order for Volvo to agree to cover the piston work. This would put us at about $1200 out of pocket. Based on our experience, all the older threads on this issue I have read and obxcnc's ongoing thread, it would seem that Volvo has a pretty established protocol for how they want dealers to handle things. And for those of us who are out or warranty and/or who bought used, they have some kind of threshold $$$ skin in the game that they want owners to hit, likely to prove how committed they are to keeping the cars after they are fixed.

So now we are waiting on parts, specialty tools, and the dealer to take of the head so they can confirm the cylinders are not damaged and the whole engine need to be replace instead.

MyVolvoS60, I get where you are going but we bought this car used at 35k miles and don't have any record of this issue with the dealer shop until after 60k+, so we are out of luck on the warranty and our state's lemon laws don't cover used cars.

meade18, it has taken a hand full of back and forth trips and several months. I would get the ball rolling sooner than later and make sure that the dealer ship is in contact with Volvo tech advisers right from the get go.

Thanks. got the ball rolling last week with a misfire. Dealership replaced the spark plugs for free that were part of another service bulletin and topped off the oil, so we now have a baseline. I was hoping my next call to them would be when my low oil light came on, but I had to call and bring my car in sooner because the misfire came back. The dealer is claiming it's the coil packs. I think it's oil all over the new spark plugs. Coil packs will be in tomorrow. I'll be changing them out in the dealer's parking lot so if they don't fix the misfire, I can walk right back in and tell them they need to investigate the oil burning. If it is indeed the coil packs, that's just really crazy luck they would go out so close to the spark plug replacement.

 

[meade18]

I just got off the phone with my dealer and apparently Volvo USA told them I need the breather box (and computer reprogramming) because of my oil consumption. I get that this is a step in the established protocol for how Volvo wants to deal with this issue, but I know for a fact with my level of oil consumption, a breather box is not going to fix my problem. It would be like putting a band aid on a 45 cal bullet wound. I would be pissed about the inconvenience of having to bring my car to the dealership, then drive some more, prove I still have the issue, and bring it back again IF I was under warranty. Since I am out of warranty, not only is it a huge inconvenience, they want to charge me $500 for a repair that isn't going to work. That is what I am trying to avoid.

Anyone know how I can get Volvo to either skip this repair, or guarantee that this is my issue and refund me my $500 when it doesn't fix my oil consumption? Or am I dreaming?

I'm thinking of offering to take the breather box off the car myself, bring it to them, and pay them to look at it and see that there is no way for it to cause my car to BURN over a quart of oil in 332 miles.

 

[meade18]

Here's a brief log of how much my car has been in the shop the past few months. Keep in mind, I normally drive 1,000 miles or so per month. I've only been able to put on half as many miles in the past 3 months because of the time it has spent in the shop or because I've been too worried to drive it and took my wife's car instead.

10/03/18 - Towed to Volvo for a repair (picked up 10/05/18)
10/10/18 - Towed to Volvo for a repair (went to pick up 10/12/18 but they messed up so I had to leave it longer, eventually picked up 10/26/18)
10/31/18 - Dropped at Volvo for a repair and low oil, given a loaner (picked up 11/16/18)
12/07/18 - Brought to Volvo for low oil, no one available
12/11/18 - Brought back, electronic dipstick software reprogrammed
12/21/18 - Brought to Volvo for low oil
01/07/19 - Called Volvo for low oil, given breather box repair recommendation

 

[meade18]

In these cases, it seems to go like this... First, your dealer has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the rings are stuck ("probably" doesn't cut it). This may take some investiment on your part (try a breather box, maybe have the head pulled). If this is done and your dealer (not you, not an indie) determines that the pistons and rings need to be replaced AND your engine is in the pproper serial number range, you are in a good position to request some good will assistance from the factory.

Skip any of these steps and do not pass Go. Go directly to jail (or at least to a loan officer).

I'm still hoping to have the piston ring job covered by my volvo extended powertrain warranty (not CPO warranty). But since it is a only a powertrain warranty, that is why I am currently sweating the $500 breather box and not the piston ring job.

 

[meade18]

So I'm confused you have a powertrain warranty and they are charging you for a PCV valve ? Seems like BS

Correct. It is very limited coverage. It essentially includes engine internals, turbo, and trans-axle.

 

[meade18]

Seems to me they just want to bleed some money from you first then spend Volvo's money . My VW powertrain warranty covers a PCV valve . Which with labor would be around 350 ballpark . They just don't care about repeat customers at all

It is possible that the warranty company is being straight up at the moment. My issue isn't with them... yet.
1. The powertrain warranty is very limited and I don't see anything related to the PCV listed in the covered items. I guess you could kinda say it is part of the intake manifold, which would be covered, but that's a stretch.
2. Volvo isn't saying that my PCV Breather Box is broken, they are suggesting the replacement as part of a fix for oil consumption issues. That is specifically excluded from my warranty coverage. So I do NOT want to press that issue with the warranty company anyway.

I hope that the dealership didn't call the warranty company to plead the case on the PCV Breather Box. I don't want the warranty company to know anything about my oil consumption issue. When it comes time to get the warranty company to cover the piston rings, I am going to give the service manager specific instructions not to bring up oil consumption. If the warranty company presses him, I will ask him to point to the fact that my defective piston rings have led to multiple issues including failed plugs and coil packs. And that this is a know problem with this new engine that Volvo has acknowledged to the point that after a certain production date, they changed the piston rings and the repair will be done with the new rings.

I completely understand why I am being sent down this route. The technical journals says to replace the breather box, then if that doesn't work, replace the piston rings. The problem lies in the fact that I don't have a little oil consumption and this didn't just start recently. If this weren't a dealership following orders and was a true mechanic doing the diagnosis, they would say... "A breather box is $500 and might work, but probably not. A ring job is $4000 and will surely fix it. Which do you want to do?" All I'm asking is for an objective MECHANIC to look at how silly it is to replace the breather box on my car. I called the main Volvo 800 number because the dealership essentially said they don't argue with the guy they talk to at volvo that makes the repair recommendation. I don't expect this to be resolved to my satisfaction. If I get a chance later today, I am going to ask if the dealership will do the breather box and 80,000 mile service all at once for $750 and hope that they come back with $850 and just take that deal. I want to show the dealership that I am interested in having my car serviced by them, so when it comes time to do the rings, they will fight for me with the warranty company and Volvo USA if necessary. If they won't work with me on this, I am going to plead my case on the breather box, hope for some sort of discount there, and take it to a separate shop for the 80k service (but not tell them). I'm not going to give them the 80k service (which is a rip off at $500+) if they don't work with me.

 

[meade18]

That famous Volvo piston rings issue has happend with many owners so far I there a lawsuit about it yet?
Also what can we do to prevent it? Is this the issue that is caused by the faulty factory spark plugs?

No. Separate issue.

 

[meade18]

Ok so you've thrown out a lot of information....Take a deep breath.

1. When did this problem FIRST OCCUR? Mileage / years of ownership?

Not trying to give you a hard time, but this has been going on for a while and I've had at least two of my own threads on the issue, so I've taken plenty of deep breaths.

FYI, I bought it in March with 72,000 on the clock. I got my first low oil warning ~2,000 miles later. Didn't think much of it until I got another low oil warning ~1,000 miles after that. The intervals between low oil warnings have progressively gotten shorter. I'm now at less than 300 miles per quart. I'll rehash the issue from beginning to end when it is finally resolved, but right now, I'm only interested in updating everyone to my current situation. Feel free to search for posts by my name and you can see how this all started.

Contact Volvo Corporate and explain your position. That you are not Mr. Money Bags and if Volvo insists that this is the ONLY course, and necessary course to resolve the problem, you aren't on the hook if it doesn't work. Meaning if the new Breather Box doesn't resolve, Volvo will eat this cost, refund your money, or apply the repair towards the ACTUAL repair that is needed.

This is essentially what I did yesterday but without the insistence that they work on my car for free. I'm not sure how many of you out there have "contacted Volvo corporate," but it doesn't seem to me like the place that a used Volvo buyer is going to get much headway. I think I'm going to have better luck working directly with the dealer since they actually stand to make some money off me.

 

[meade18]

Volvo's are extremely common in Atlanta. Would never know that they're not a top seller. Audi was much the same here prior to their sales explosion over the last decade.

That's where I bought mine from. At the time, I was looking for 2015 V60s with over 70k miles. There were like 6 in the whole country and 2 were in metro Atlanta. I wonder why. Mine was previously owned by a pharmaceutical company and given to a sales rep that drove... a lot.

A guy on the board bought the other one. Mine has bad rings and his had a cracked piston. Stay away from Atlanta cars! lol

 

[meade18]

First off, sorry to hear of your unfortunate situation. I would say your case needs to be escalated to VCNA thru the dealer where you purchased. That's ridiculous, burning that much oil is insane. If there's a documented history of your car's service records from its prior owner, then I would say you should qualify for a trade of some sort.

Yeah, I don't live in Atlanta, so that ain't gonna happen. Nor would that dealer do anything for me since I was never their customer and won't be in the future. I saw some service records from the old owner and it doesn't look like it got much service done at the dealer anyway. It's been escalated to Volvo Cars USA's Tech Hotline through my dealer. It's nice that you would say I should qualify for a trade of some sort, but that is not how dealerships handle issues with 3 year old cars with 80,000 miles. From what I have read on this board, Volvo Cars USA is being cool by assisting some folks with goodwill discounts on piston ring repairs. I'm just trying to get to the point where they say I need piston rings without spending an additional $500 on a breather box. Unfortunately, based on the email I just got from Volvo Cars USA, it looks like that ain't gonna happen.

Here's the email:

We would first like to thank you for your patience while your case was opened. We have finished reviewing your case and as much as we truly desire to resolve all of our customer's requests to their satisfaction, it is not possible to meet every expectation. We regret that in this instance, Volvo Car USA cannot accommodate your request for assistance with this repair. We suggest that you should follow the recommendations of the service department and the Tech Hotline. We apologize for any inconvenience in this matter.

 

[meade18]

It's hard to tell without all of the correspondence, but it sounds to me like they are pushing back because you have not definitively identified piston/rings as the failure. They are not going to buy you pistons and rings without assurances that it is required.

The next move is yours. If you don't make a move (i.e., don't invest in a breather box), then nobody moves, and you lose. If you invest that $500 and it fixes the car, you win. If you invest the $500 and it doesn't fix the car, there is still a chance you can win by getting good will.

I seems clear to me.

I have never asked for goodwill. I have a warranty that I am hoping will cover defective piston rings. I just wanted Volvo to admit that a breather box can't be the cause of burning ~6 qts of oil the past ~2,500 miles and go ahead and admit I need new rings. I just wanted someone to act like a real mechanic and not just follow a checklist like a level 1 help desk worker.

The ironic part is that at the top of every Technical Journal (Volvo's version of a service bulletin) is a slogan:

"Right first time in time"

I'm about to bet $500 that they won't live up to it. And if I'm right, I won't win anything.

 

[meade18]

Your car doesn't even have the oil consumption problem and you are still running around scaring people. I wish you would just get rid of it already.

There is a bulletin for the PCV breather box on certain engines as a first step. I assume your engine fits that bulletin so then yes, it needs to be done first. Since you are out of warranty, then you would have to pay for it.

$500 is high though. The part is only $150 to $200 and labor is a half hour. Buy it over the counter and replace it yourself if you want, it's very easy. The bulletin also says to upgrade the ECM software, so maybe that is priced into the $500. Then it would be a fair price.

You are correct. In post #8 I said they want to replace the PCV breather box AND reprogram the computer. Thank you for the suggestion. If they aren't going to work with me on the repair costs, I will replace the box myself and pay them to reprogram it.

However, do you honestly think a faulty breather box is causing my engine to burn over 1 quart of oil in less than 300 miles?

 

[meade18]

1. Volvo is NOT going to admit it can't be the breather box because it CAN
2. Real mechanics are REQUIRED to follow certain checklists. This is a key component to quality control.

Example about the checklist thing... I can imagine a mechanic (or anyone, really) saying "NAH, It ain't the breather box" and then launching into $5000 of unnecessary repairs. Oops. Sorry that it didn't work Mr. Customer, but you authorized the work, so...

It CAN for me? Are you willing to bet me $500 that my problem is the breather box?

 

[meade18]

Extended warranty companies know about bulletins in many cases. They aren't going to buy pistons if there is a bulletin that applies for the problem.

Are you saying that the warranty company wouldn't cover the rings/pistons unless I did all the things in the previous bulletins first? If so, that is a good point. That will make me feel slightly better about burning $500 through my engine like it were a case of oil.

 

[meade18]

Yes, it can (assuming your engine is in the range for the bulletin). There is a bulletin and an updated part for a reason. As he said, you can either do that or not. It's your choice. No one is going to pay for pistons until that's done. Unless you want to pay for them. Labor for the breather box would overlap since the head comes off, so you can get it done at the same time.

Well, if this repair fixes it, I will be happy I lost my $500 bet. But I'm not holding my breath. Have you personally had cars with 1 qt or more of oil consumption per 1,000 miles be 100% fixed after having the breather box replaced and did not need a piston/ring job?

 

[meade18]

Sorry, I didn't re-read the whole thread.

If the box fails, it can cause excessive consumption. The redesigned the part for a reason.

Do I honestly think that is the cause? Probably not, but what I think or what the tech thinks doesn't matter. It needs to be done first. That's why there are Tech Journals for us.

Sorry, I replied to your newer posts first. I should have replied to this one first. This is actually the attitude with dealerships that makes me (and so many other people) not want to use them.

You said "if the box fails..." The box is right on top of the engine. Replacing the box takes 30 minutes. Yet they are recommending it be replaced (and reprogrammed) to the tune of $500 without ever taking the 30 minutes to look at the damn box and see if it is broken/clogged/whatever! THAT IS NOT MECHANIC WORK. What the Tech thinks SHOULD matter. I would gladly pay for the 30 minutes of diagnostic work for a mechanic to look at the box, see whether it needs to be replaced, and THEN, if it is broken, follow the TJ step by step. But if it is not broken, I expect them to tell the Volvo Tech line they should skip the breather box replacement TJ and move on.

Is that really too much to ask?

 

[meade18]

I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with the idea in general. But we have protocol we need to follow when under warranty or we don't get paid.

You are out of warranty but have an extended warranty so the same rules apply in most cases.

But if someone was out of warranty and my opinion is the car needs rings, if I tell them it needs rings and I replace the box at the same time, they are going to either decline the work or call Volvo. Then Volvo will say the bulletin needs to be done first and here we are.

We can't just remove the box to see if it is the cause. We would need to damage the box to check, and then you need a new one. Bulletins are for warranty purposes in general because if there is a bulletin, Volvo doesn't pay is any diagnosis. So if a Drive E comes in under warranty for oil consumption and it fits the bulletin, I put a box on (assumimg no external leaks and within the oil change interval) because that is all I'm paid to do.

At the dealer I work at, we've done a few breather boxes. I had one come back needing pistons. Another guy had an engine. Otherwise I haven't seen any others back. I don't know exactly how many we had or how long ago they've been done, I haven't really been tracking them. I'd estimate we've done 10 or fewer though. So not a huge sample size.

This is super useful to know. I really appreciate your contributions to my threads on this. Thank you Tech!

 

[meade18]

Was this vehicle purchased from a Volvo Dealership or a 3rd Party used car lot? If a Volvo Dealership, is the Vehicle under a CPO warranty Or Volvo VIP Warranty?

Used car lot
bought a Volvo VIP warranty from Steingold Volvo 3 months later

 

[meade18]

I've got the breather box replacement and ECM reprogramming service scheduled for next Wednesday. Dealer said the repair is $575. They said they would honor an expired $50 off $500 coupon on their website. I ended my email exchange with Volvo Cars USA saying that I plan to follow their recommendation and asked if they have any coupons. Then sent me a 30% parts rebate coupon, so I should get 30% back on whatever the box cost so, that should be another ~$50 savings. So, this should be $475 out of pocket if all goes according to plan. I'll post back up in this thread if (when) I see another low oil message after the repair. Then the real fun starts trying to get the warranty to cover new pistons and rings.

I'm also getting my 80k mile service done this week to make sure the warranty company doesn't try to deny me coverage because I ignored the service schedule. Getting it done at National Tire and Battery (NTB) since they are over $300 cheaper than the dealership.