2015 V60 Drive-E with bad pistons/rings

meade18 said:

It is possible that the warranty company is being straight up at the moment. My issue isn't with them... yet.
1. The powertrain warranty is very limited and I don't see anything related to the PCV listed in the covered items. I guess you could kinda say it is part of the intake manifold, which would be covered, but that's a stretch.
2. Volvo isn't saying that my PCV Breather Box is broken, they are suggesting the replacement as part of a fix for oil consumption issues. That is specifically excluded from my warranty coverage. So I do NOT want to press that issue with the warranty company anyway.

I hope that the dealership didn't call the warranty company to plead the case on the PCV Breather Box. I don't want the warranty company to know anything about my oil consumption issue. When it comes time to get the warranty company to cover the piston rings, I am going to give the service manager specific instructions not to bring up oil consumption. If the warranty company presses him, I will ask him to point to the fact that my defective piston rings have led to multiple issues including failed plugs and coil packs. And that this is a know problem with this new engine that Volvo has acknowledged to the point that after a certain production date, they changed the piston rings and the repair will be done with the new rings.

I completely understand why I am being sent down this route. The technical journals says to replace the breather box, then if that doesn't work, replace the piston rings. The problem lies in the fact that I don't have a little oil consumption and this didn't just start recently. If this weren't a dealership following orders and was a true mechanic doing the diagnosis, they would say... "A breather box is $500 and might work, but probably not. A ring job is $4000 and will surely fix it. Which do you want to do?" All I'm asking is for an objective MECHANIC to look at how silly it is to replace the breather box on my car. I called the main Volvo 800 number because the dealership essentially said they don't argue with the guy they talk to at volvo that makes the repair recommendation. I don't expect this to be resolved to my satisfaction. If I get a chance later today, I am going to ask if the dealership will do the breather box and 80,000 mile service all at once for $750 and hope that they come back with $850 and just take that deal. I want to show the dealership that I am interested in having my car serviced by them, so when it comes time to do the rings, they will fight for me with the warranty company and Volvo USA if necessary. If they won't work with me on this, I am going to plead my case on the breather box, hope for some sort of discount there, and take it to a separate shop for the 80k service (but not tell them). I'm not going to give them the 80k service (which is a rip off at $500+) if they don't work with me.

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Ok so you've thrown out a lot of information....Take a deep breath.

1. When did this problem FIRST OCCUR? Mileage / years of ownership?
2. Were you under the factory warranty when the oil consumption first arose?
3. What state are you in?

Here's a few things to consider. My 15.5 Volvo was put into service in June 2015 (factory warranty starts from in service state). So the 4 years would expire June 2019. However, if I read your thread correctly, you exceeded the 50,000 miles allotment and are at 80,000 miles. I would still like to know if the oil consumption issue happened before reaching 50,000 or after.

Per above, if the problem occurred within the warrant period, how early on?

I'm wondering if there's anyway to stick Volvo on the hook for the repair. I.E. You were 3 yrs and 40,000 miles into warranty and started burning oil. And Volvo failed to fix the issue and here you are at 80k? and have been working since 40k.

If outside the warranty, I'd do one of two things:

1. Get second opinion from another Volvo / Shop on the prospective repair.

2. Contact Volvo Corporate and explain your position. That you are not Mr. Money Bags and if Volvo insists that this is the ONLY course, and necessary course to resolve the problem, you aren't on the hook if it doesn't work. Meaning if the new Breather Box doesn't resolve, Volvo will eat this cost, refund your money, or apply the repair towards the ACTUAL repair that is needed.

Sorry but If's and But's aren't enough of an assurance that'd have me throwing money at a vehicle that surely isn't going to get fixed with proposed resolution.

wildcard442 said:

I bought it used at 69k, so I don't know the previous history. But from the questions they were asking, they wanted to know what happened from 50 - 70k, so it looks like it wasn't serviced at a dealer, so not totally sure. Volvo dealer serviced it at 70k, independent shop did it at 80k, back to Volvo at 90k and 100k. I got the service records from 70k and the oil consumption was not documented on the ticket at 70k. It was at 90k.

Looks like Volvo offered to pay $500 of the $5400 + taxes. It's currently apart right now. I think I'm going to have them put it back together and just drive it...

I've opened a case with customer service and waiting to hear back from them.

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Unfortunately, I don't see your chances as being very high. I presume (but please clarify) the vehicle wasn't purchased from a Volvo Dealership. If this is an accurate statement, then a request for financial assistance may be a dead end. Volvo is going to argue, and rightfully so, they cannot track the history of the vehicle from 40k?, 50 and 60k. My suggestion is order the CarFax and see if there are any notations on who serviced the car during this period. You can people online that can pull the CarFax for around $5. I've used that method before.

Service is free from 10-30k, so I believe you are missing the 40, 50 and 60K records. Short of filling in those gaps, you are probably out of luck. It also doesn't help an independent shop did the 80K. Ultimately, you've opened a case and that can't hurt, but I wouldn't get your hopes up here.

Curiosity, how much was the purchase price of the vehicle at 69,000 miles? Do you have a 15 or 15.5? Reason I'm asking is if Volvo declines assistance, it might pay to drive the car til it dies. If you've spent say $14,000 on the vehicle, does throwing $5k to repair make sense? Only you can be the judge of that question.

wildcard442 said:

It was not a Volvo dealer that I bought it from.

Volvo has offered $500 but that's it. They said it is too far outside of goodwill guidelines and it doesn't matter that I brought up the issue at 90k miles. We did an oil consumption test (starting at 90k and bringing it back at 93k) and they said it was fine.

I paid about 15k for it ($17k after taxes, fees, etc.). No, it doesn't seem like a good idea to spend $5800 on this repair. I'll just have them put it back together, do the 116,500 mile service (which includes plugs which looks like it needs them anyways. The plugs were warranty replaced at the 70k service, due to possible breaking warranty recall), and just keep an eye on it.

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I own a 15.5 with ~72,000 miles on it. Owned it since May/June 2016 with 2200 miles as Demo / Loaner. Came as a CPO. The oil consumption issue has been a big worry of mine and I hope if something happens, it does so before 100K. My car is an exclusively Volvo serviced vehicle. So in my case, I'd play this up to my benefit.

Unfortunately, Volvo sees your vehicle as having too many gaps and what if's.

1. Wasn't purchased at Volvo
2. What happened during the 40-50-60K. Again, you MIGHT be able to nudge some good will if you buy CarFax and find a Volvo dealer did these services.
3. Not doing the 80K wouldn't be a deal breaker if you could at least prove the 10-70K and 90K were done at Volvo.

Ultimately, it sucks to have spent $15,000 (17K after taxes) to wind up with a dud. Volvo had the piston ring issues in the 15s and early 16s. I truly wish there was a recall on the matter, as I find it crummy that Volvo leaves the owner holding the bag for a design flaw. Unfortunately, Volvo wasn't the only manufacturer plagued by the issue. You might try reaching out to these guys http://newjerseyclassactionlawyer.net/volvo-oil-consumption-defect-class-action-lawsuit/ and seeing if anything has moved forward on a class action. I googled that while ago for someone else who had an issue.

In the mean time, if I were in your shoes, I'd just dump oil in the engine and keep it running until the wheels fall off. Hopefully the consumption problem doesn't worsen over time. But chances are, these problems don't get better.

meade18 said:

I don't think it would matter if the car was serviced at a Volvo dealership for every single service. At +100k miles, I don't think you would get much more goodwill than $500.

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I think circumstances mean everything. Wildcard said the problem was first documented at 90K. If he had a CPO (old one 7yr / 100K), and the issue progressed to ring replacement at another 10 or 20K, Volvo may step up and offer good will. Especially if the vehicle was exclusively serviced at Volvo.

Even if the Old CPO wasn't present, I believe issue being diagnosed at less than 100K would hold some clout in asking for assistance. Again, with the assumption the car was serviced exclusively at Volvo.

In Wildcard's case, neither of these scenarios fit. So he's out of luck in my opinion beyond the $500 Volvo offered. His best bet is checking with those attorneys to see if anything was ever done about doing a class action. If I were in his shoes, I couldn't justify dumping $5k into a vehicle he purchased at $15k. Unless of course he planned to keep the car long term and everything else about the vehicle was in superior condition.

meade18 said:

I'm still waiting for the person with a VIP Volvo warranty with legit oil consumption in which Volvo recommends new pistons/rings. We all know that "oil consumption" isn't covered by the warranty, but "pistons and rings" are, yet we have no real world data-point of what the VIP warranty adjuster has done for someone in that situation. If we find out that the VIP warranty covers it, I think we should officially recommend that people NOT bring this issue up to their service advisor until after they have purchased a warranty.

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About the only way this would come into play is if the car burned enough oil to trash the engine before a 10K service interval. I would think that before the car ever got to this point, a Volvo tech would notate a consumption issue. Meaning the owner would be stuck dumping oil into the vehicle, hoping at some point the rings fail. Otherwise, the warranty pays nothing.

meade18 said:

You are making assumptions about what would happen without basing it on anyone's actual experience. There is a TJ on oil consumption. If a car clearly has an oil consumption issue, Volvo is recommending piston/ring jobs to fix it. Owners haven't had to trash their engines in order for Volvo to recommend the fix (after breather box). The warranty adjuster gets called in when the fix is recommended on a warrantied car. We just don't know (on this board) how the Volvo VIP warranty adjusters are treating this problem.

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The new VIP Warranties exclude consumption issues. So they will NOT make repairs to the engine related to consumption unless it results in failure. I believe Tech and others on here have stated that before.

The Breather Box is the first line of testing. Volvo doesn't pay for it if not under Warranty / Old CPO. And if breather fails to resolve the issue, and it turns out to be the rings, Volvo won't pay for it outside of the standard warranty / old CPO. New VIP warranty has verbiage that excludes consumption.

I'm making no assumptions. I can read the contract from Volvo.....http://volvo.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9779/~/vip-platinum-coverage

What's not understood by this disclaimer?

Because so many parts are covered, it is easier to mention the items that are not covered. See the list below:

Burnt valves, worn or carbon fouled piston rings, any mechanical breakdown resulting from a build up of carbon, the correction of oil consumption, or any repairs for reduction in engine efficiency that must be performed on your Volvo.

meade18 said:

There is nothing new about the warranty excluding oil consumption or worn piston rings. It was like that in the older contract too (I know because I bought one). But that isn't necessarily what is wrong with the piston rings on our cars. One could argue they are failing because of a DEFECT, not because they are worn, hence the new design. The truth is, no one has come on this board and said, "I had oil consumption bad enough that Volvo recommended a piston/ring job. I also had a VIP warranty. The VIP Warranty did/did not cover the piston/ring job." Since the warranty excludes worn piston rings while at the same time covers all internally lubricated engine parts, which includes pistons and rings, we really don't know how the warranty company will handle this until someone says, "This is what I had and this is what they did in my case." I thought I would be that data-point when I went through my saga. But alas, they found a completely broken piston and there was no question that was covered.

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The Old 7 yr / 100K absolutely paid for Piston Ring Failure. Volvo didn't have knowledge of the problem so there was no exclusionary verbiage at the time. Volvo has seen enough of these failures now, to know they're costly and not one offs. The Piston Ring issue is definitely a defect, and Volvo isn't alone. Google Oil Consumption and you'll see Honda and other Manufacturers being Class Action'ed over the issue. There was some law firm in New Jersey looking to start one on Volvo. No idea whatever happened with that action.

New VIP warranties definitely exclude consumption. Any car outside Standard / CPO has potential to be stonewalled by Volvo. You aren't a good case study, as you were a rare exception. The VIP warranties definitely cover failure. So if someone is driving along in between their 10K visit, and the engine seizes due to piston failure, Volvo is on the hook. However, if someone rolls into the bay for a 10K service and Volvo notices the vehicle is down 3 courts, Volvo won't do squat. Volvo will tell the person to add oil in between visits. It's pretty clear that unless a failure results from the consumption issue, Volvo intends to ignore the problem.

Now if someone fights or asks for good will, they may have luck, but general rule seems to be "it's normal". Thus, people with other brands getting pissed and suing manufacturers.

meade18 said:

You are talking like you have personal knowledge of all the things you are saying. You don't. Therefore, your comments are quite unhelpful.

FACT: There are several people with oil consumption where Volvo has followed TJ-31216 and recommended replacing the pistons and rings BEFORE there has been a failure.
FACT: No one with a VIP Warranty has run into this issue AND come on this board to tell us whether or not the VIP warranty covered the repair.

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1. Volvo seems to offer good will assistance on a case by case basis. Exclusively serviced and vehicle purchased from a Volvo Dealership are two of the sole deciding factors in determining whether good will is approve or denied. I've yet to see Volvo approve a repair outside of standard warranty / old CPO where an indy had touched the car or the car was bought elsewhere.

2. The consumption problem was supposedly fixed after 2016. I've yet to see a new SPA car having an oil consumption problem. Only p3s. So this might be a moot issue or too early to tell. As any SPA car would still be under warranty for a few more years. So if an issue arose, it'd be covered under standard warranty.

3. The fact it says in clear and plain text gives you the answer regarding the VIP Warranty. Volvo wouldn't have added the verbiage if it intended to undertake repairs. Now exceptions may be made on a case by case basis.... but the language is clear as day. Volvo has every right to refuse a repair, and adding that consumption issues are not covered, speaks for itself.

Burnt valves, worn or carbon fouled piston rings, any mechanical breakdown resulting from a build up of carbon, the correction of oil consumption, or any repairs for reduction in engine efficiency that must be performed on your Volvo.

meade18 said:

We simply don't know if the warranty adjuster would claim that the rings in that situation are worn, and therefore not covered, or admit they were defective, and therefore covered.

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So let me rationalize your response. You are advocating buying the warranty which explicitly excludes consumption problems, in hopes that Volvo will make an exception should a consumption issue arise? I'll never go to Vegas with you! You're the guy sitting at the high roller table better everything on one number.

Warranties are generally a a money maker for dealers and underwriters. They get your money in advance and can invest it over time. The chances your repairs exceed the cost of warranty are low comparative to the price paid. Warranties are a gamble. Some cars never see the bay of a dealership beyond routine maintenance. Other cars spend much of their life being handled by a mechanic. Usually, most issues will arise under the standard warranty. I had plenty get fixed under the original 4 yr / 50K.

I can't remember exactly, but I think my seatbelt was replaced under CPO / Some other warranty this past year. And maybe a software reflash. My car hasn't spend it's life in the bay but it's had a fair share of issues early on. All repaired.

meade18 said:

I'm not telling people to get a warranty and everything will be hunky-dory. But I remember when I first discovered my oil consumption, my first thread here was me posting about whether I should get a warranty. The only people that replied with an answer to that question told me not to get the warranty because it excludes oil consumption. Boy was it a good thing I didn't listen to them. So until there is someone that has specifically been denied by a VIP warranty adjuster when a Volvo dealer says their car needs new pistons and rings, I think it is unhelpful to tell people that the fix for their oil consumption issue will definitely not be covered by a VIP warranty.

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The warranty you picked up didn't exclude consumption at the time. Now we don't know. Someone on here quoted a piston job at being around $5000. This of course assumes the engine wasn't trashed or damaged. The VIP extended warranties can run up to $3300-4200 (S60 vs XC90) and the extended CPO up to $4200. The VIP states no oil consumption and the CPO extended states:

THE CORRECTION OF OIL CONSUMPTION, REPAIR OF WORN RINGS, OR ANY REPAIRS FOR REDUCTION IN ENGINE EFFICIENCY THAT MUST BE PERFORMED ON YOUR VEHICLE WHEN A MECHANICAL BREAKDOWN HAS NOT OCCURED.

meade18 said:

I will point out 2 more things:
1. My Volvo service advisor said the folks at the VIP warranty company were better to work with than any other 3rd party warranty company he has ever dealt with. That dealership must not sell VIP warranties, because he said it was the first time he ever dealt with them.

2. The warranty is refundable. The refund is prorated, so you don't have to get a refund in 30 days. If you buy it and they don't cover a huge repair, I doubt they are going to give you that hard a time when you cancel and ask for your prorated refund.

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Again, I'm not saying getting a warranty is necessarily bad. Every vehicle is different and some models are more problematic than others. Whereas some cars never need repairs and others have a lifetime ticket open with Volvo because nothing ever seems to get resolved. The only point I'm making is I wouldn't get a VIP Warranty expecting consumption to be covered. Could Volvo make an exception? Sure, but the language in the contracts are very clear.

meade18 said:

This is going to be my last reply to you because it is clear to me you aren't really listening to what I am saying. Hopefully the other folks that read this that are running into this issue can read what I am saying, read what you are saying, and parse things together on their own without being bogged down by how you have muddied the water.

You keep mentioning Volvo like Volvo has any control over what the VIP Warranty adjuster says. This is the first indicator that you are very mistaken on this topic because you don't even understand that the VIP Warranty is a 3rd party warranty and not administered by Volvo even though it has Volvo in the name and is sold exclusively by Volvo dealers for Volvos. That is a common misconception, so I normally wouldn't give you a hard time about it, BUT you are talking about it like you are an expert, so you do deserve me giving you a hard time about it.

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The Policies are underwritten by Fidelity and are Volvo Backed. I guess if you want to technically argue that the Fidelity Adjuster can make exceptions, then yes, you're right. It all depends on who has the final say here. Fidelity has obviously limited their liability to Oil Consumption Issues for a Reason. If Volvo feels good will is worthwhile, I am sure it can either nudge Fidelity into approving a claim or bite the bullet and absorb the cost.

meade18 said:

You are speaking on this like you have direct knowledge. You don't. Unless you have spoken to a decision maker at Volvo corporate that has told you "our sole deciding deciding factors in giving out goodwill assistance is XYZ," you are basing your conclusion purely on conjecture. I think it is pure conjecture because you have left out what I believe is a significant factor in giving out goodwill - how far a car is out of warranty. Regardless, all of these things are likely out of the owner's control by the time they discover oil consumption, so they are neither here nor there in my comment about the VIP warranty.

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I covered this in mentioning where the car was purchased and if all services were performed by a Volvo Dealer. I have helped a ton of people on here contact corporate with issues. So I've got a decent sense of what will happen from that experience. Playing up the fact you've bought multiple Volvos, or that you have serviced this Volvo exclusively at a dealership, and that the car was bought from Volvo are all mitigating factors. There's obviously no guarantee Volvo will approve these claims, but your chances are far better than someone who bought a Volvo at Bob's used Car Lot and had it services a few times at Volvo and the rest at an Indy. You can expect the latter case to be denied sans 99.9%.

meade18 said:

We haven't been talking about SPA cars, so I have no idea why you are bringing this up.

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I realize this buy I brought up SPA's because we don't know if there will be a consumption problem with these vehicles. Too early to tell. Was worth mentioning. Most P3s are nearing the end of their factory warranty, if not having already expired. With 17s and 18s expiring in another year or two. Old CPO 7 yr / 100K i believe terminated in 2018. So the last cars that may qualify here will expire in 4 maybe 5 years. So there's shelf life. However, I'm not aware of too many people with late model 16s, 17s, and 18s having consumption issues. If I am not mistaken, I have read a few on here, but don't quote me on it.

meade18 said:

No one added any verbiage to the warranty recently. I bought my warranty in 2018 and its terms were written in 2016. It included the EXACT SAME exclusions in it that you are claiming Volvo added specifically because of the issues our cars are having. THAT IS UNTRUE. Stop repeating it. 3rd party warranties almost all exclude correction for oil consumption. There is nothing special about this exclusion in the VIP warranty.
Also, as mentioned before, Volvo isn't the one making the determination of if it is covered or not. Volvo (in conjunction with it's dealer mechanics) is the one diagnosing the issue and making repair suggestions. The adjusters for the VIP warranty company are the ones that determine if they will cover the repair.

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Your issue was a failure not just an oil consumption issue. I forgot your exact circumstance (Broken Piston / Trashed Engine?). Either way, your coverage rightfully replaced your engine because you suffered a failure. Had the engine not failed, repair would be case by case basis. Again, see above.

That's what you aren't grasping here. The verbiage gives Fidelity and Volvo an "out". Whether they choose to use discretion is irrelevant. One should operate under the pretense that oil consumption on a P3 isn't covered. If and/or when a consumption issue appears, then it's time to play up the Volvo Loyalty card and hope to win over Corporate if Fidelity chooses not to cover a repair.

meade18 said:

Let me explain my logic hopefully for the final time. The VIP warranty covers all internally lubricated engine parts. This includes pistons and rings (it specifically listed pistons and rings as internally lubricated parts in my warranty). It excludes correction of oil consumption and worn piston rings. I THINK an argument can be made, on the cars that fall under the TJ to replace the pistons and rings, that the rings are not WORN, they are DEFECTIVE. I THINK an argument can be made that oil consumption isn't a problem that needs to be corrected on these cars, but is a symptom of the problem that Volvo itself identified as defective piston rings. Will the adjuster with the VIP warranty company buy that explanation? I don't know. I think it depends on several factors, one of which is how well the dealer servicing your car articulates the problem.

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I think manufacturers shafting it to their owners is why you have seen numerous class action lawsuits against brands for oil consumption. A very expensive issue to fix, and it appears not a single dealer has issued a recall to replace rings across the board. More so, they hope the chips fall in their favor, in that the issue happens far outside of warranty. Therefore, they aren't on the hook to cover an costly repair. Lawyers wouldn't be suing if this were cut and dry as you articulate. Your argument isn't wrong at all, but manufacturers, including Volvo, aren't necessarily seeing the light. There was a firm in New Jersey looking for a class action against Volvo. Not sure whatever happened with it. Still says seeking candidates on the link.

meade18 said:

This is the exact route I took with my issue and I documented it here. I got lucky in that it never got to that point (convincing the adjuster he was paying for defective rings) because I had a broken piston. But before I knew I had a broken piston, I had a very specific conversation with my dealer's service manager on how I wanted them to approach the adjuster. They had every incentive to follow my instructions advocate for me because they wanted to do the service. We also were quite familiar with each other at that point.

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Getting the dealer on your side was wise. Having a detailed maintenance history is also crucial. These are things I recommend to everyone I help on here. While these options better your chances, they offer no guarantee. You were lucky that the piston failed, because you've got a brand new engine with new rings, and your car will now go for a few hundred thousand miles!

I'll be 100% Honest. I sit at 72,000 miles. 28,000 Miles / 22.5 Months left on CPO. Whichever comes first. I've owned my car since end of May 2016 so 50 months (4 yrs / 2 months). I'm trying to slow my driving down a bit to stretch out those remaining 28K for hit closest to the 22 months as possible. Unfortunately, this past year I probably did 25-30,000 miles of driving due to several different reasons. Anyway, my biggest fear is my car will hit 100K and I'll get hit with your issue or a consumption one shortly after. Knock on Wood, Rain Dance, etc so far so good, but it's always in the back of one's mind driving a 15.5 or early 16.

meade18 said:

Let me also be clear on my warranty recommendations. I AM NOT, as you say, "advocating buying the warranty which explicitly excludes consumption problems, in hopes that Volvo will make an exception should a consumption issue arise." I am saying that AFTER someone notices oil consumption, they should consider buying the VIP warranty before taking the car in. But I am also trying to temper their expectations because we don't have a data-point one way or the other on whether the VIP warranty will cover the piston/ring replacement. I had a great experience with my VIP warranty. I had a unique situation in the end. But at least I can say that in my situation, the warranty company did the right thing. That is why I advocate if someone wants a warranty, to go with the VIP warranty and not one of the other random ones that have terrible reviews. And also, if they don't cover it, it is refundable on a pro-rated basis. If your saga takes 6 months like mine did, and you buy a 2 year warranty, and they don't cover it, you can still get 75% of the warranty back.

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Always buy dealership and never 3rd party. Those 3rd party ones will screw you over 99.9% of the time, looking for every out on denying a claim. So yes, I agree. Also, I agree, if you see a consumption issue try buying a warranty and getting it covered before bringing the problem to the dealer's attention. The warranty can ALWAYS be cancelled if it's a Volvo Backed One. Once the issue is documented, you have ZERO chance of the warranty paying, and are left to Volvo's Good Will Graces. We don't disagree here at all!