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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I usually post over in the C70 forum, my car is a '98 C70 Coupe. My wife drives the car in question a 2001 S60 with Turbo. Here is what happened:
This past Friday morning I take the car out for an errand and fill the tank, check tire pressure, 9:30am we leave home for the drive expected to last about 5 hours from upstate NY to Maine for our friends’ Wedding. The route we selected was the more ‘scenic’ one straight across NY, VT, NH and into ME, the roads are most all two lane 55mph but down to 25-35 if you are driving through a town.

About 2/3 of the way into the drive we are on a short stretch of four lane 65mph divided highway outside Plymouth NH. I pull onto the highway start to accelerate and over about 55 mph I am feeling this vibration, weird, so I slow down a little and then lean back on to see if it goes away with the next acceleration, no luck, but the car starts slowing down. I am pressing on the peddle and we are not speeding up like normal.
I start to make my way to the right shoulder, pull over. The car is still running but I turn it off hoping maybe a quick off/on will get us going. Turn the key, slightly slow to start but it fires up sounds okay and then just dies out in a few seconds. Start it up press on the gas, revved it to about 3,000RPM and then dies out.
Call our regular mechanic at home, unfortunately he did not think it was a road side reparable problem, suggests possible fuel pump failure. We call road side service and a hour and a half later have the car to a mechanic in Plymouth NH and obtained the last rental car the town.

Any suggestions as to the issue would be appreciated. The car is at an unknown three bay garage, they seemed nice on the phone and in person, but would still like to minimize diagnosis time and honestly all costs.
We are getting ready to sell this car, this was going to be our last trip in it, so I want to put as little as possible into it to get it home and sold. Within the last three months we had to replace the ETM with a rebuilt XMODEX model, just want this thing off our hands.
Yes, we missed the rehearsal but made it in time to catch dinner and the wedding the next day!
Jerome
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
This could cause the car to start but then just quickly and softly die right out?
I am going to call the garage soon to see if they were able to read any codes yet.
 

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it could be a few things, intercooler, charge pipe leak, check the ETM pipe connection maybe got loose or something.
 

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This could cause the car to start but then just quickly and softly die right out?
I am going to call the garage soon to see if they were able to read any codes yet.
Absolutely, mine popped off the clamp on the cold side of the turbo and this is the exact behavior. If it popped off you can just clamp it on. If a hose cracked/failed you'll need to replace that but it should be pretty cheap and easy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If this turns out to be the problem I will be very fortunate and will also likely break out into a combination of tears and laughter, knowing I could have fixed it road side and continuted on our way. Lets hope its something easy like this.
Jerome
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
And the mechanics report is in, talked on phone waiting for fax of estimate...
He says MAF is bad, unplugs it and the car runs okay to 4000rpm, he said it ran "okay" but not "great"
He said something about it backfiring to the intake and that it smells like sulfur
Says the catalytic converter is plugged and causing the smell and that a build up of heat from this is what could have caused the MAF to fail
Good news though, the fuel pressure is good!
Codes were one for an evap leak, I knew that was there already and the other was for "over boost" he thinks the tech wrote P1238
This is after 2 hours of diagnosis @ 75/hr.
Oh and the front left tire is worn and should be replaced, thanks I know, I am getting rid of the car. He questions if I could get home on it.

Input on this?
Do these pieces fit together with my story?
What else should I ask him to check aside from the pipes and intakes mentioned previously?
What is the bare minimum I need to do to be able to drive the car the 3 hours 37 minutes 165 miles home?
Can the calytic converter plug to the point the car will not work, if it is pluged why would the car run with the MAF unplugged? He said "you and I both know you could get home with a sawzall, but I wont don that" could I really? Do I just have to cut the pipe or a hole in it?
 

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honestly i still wouldn't be surprised if there was just a leak in one of the charge pipe couplers

we had a 2002 2.4T go abused for 80,000 miles, abused as in 4 oil changes throughout all those miles, beaten hard, driven over curbs, never aligned, never had any work done, and after the 80,000 miles (car was total of 180,000 miles) we never had any issues with the catalytic converter, MAF, or any sensors. I find it hard to believe that all those issues are happening to you at once.

It's almost always just one thing that's wrong that creates symptoms of multiple issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I forgot to note the care is in the 140k mile range. I would love to run down there and do a quick pipe check myself but its 3.5 hours!
I am going to call my regular mechanic now and talk to him, keep the ideas and input on my last few questions coming!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So the shop finally faxed their quote over to me this moring for new MAF, new cat, 'shop supplies' for $15 (are you kidding me) and labor and said I might need new oxygen sensors if they damage the old ones taking them out.

Before I called them back I called and talked to my regular guy, we went over what they told me yesterday again and it does not quite add up. They said when the MAF was unplugged the car ran okay to 4000 RPM, if the cat was totally plugged then to us that says the car should have died out again with or with out the MAF plugged in. If the cat was totally plugged they would have had to create an exhaust leak by taking out one of the oxygen sensors to get it running, yesteday he spicifically said they tried to take one out but it was hard to get it removed so they stopped so as not to damage it.

My guy did the ETM replacment and said he should have made sure the charge and intake pipes were tight when he was done so he does not think that would be it, but obvisouly ask that they double check. He said if it runs with the MAF unplugged and they can rev it that high then maybe the cat is obstructed but its not totally closed off, it should be okay to drive when the new MAF. Said it was not a good idea to drive it that far with the old MAF unplugged as that could make the cat even worse if that is a issue. Said I should ask them how long they ran it with with MAF unplugged and ask them to let it run some or take up and down the block to see how it runs.

I called the garage where the car is located now and talked to the manager guy. I asked a few questions to confirm what he told me yesterday and then brought up the point about the car running with the maf unplugged but with no exaust leak open to allow the exhaust to vent around the 'plugged' cat, he would bairly conceed the point that the car should still be dying if its totally plugged, he agreed that maybe its just very obstructed. He said that the MAF was ruind by the heat and back pressure from the clogged cat, is this possible? I asked if they checked the charge and intake pipes, he could not confirm but said that was basic and they should have done that yesterday when checking it out.
I kept to my line that I only want to do what is necessary to get it back home, point a to point b, he went on this talk about how they are a stand up shop and fix things the right way and I countered with my I am selling this car as is, I just need it home, he would not concede that just replacing the MAF would make enough of a fix to drive it home and said I would have to sign "several" waivers if I do not fix all the items.
I asked him to replace the MAF only, as soon as possible. 174 for the part and 48 for labor plus the 150 diag I am already into him for. I asked about the part price if he could do better and he got pissy so I said fine do it and call me when its done and you have let it run and driven it. Should I ask for the old part?


What do you think about the whole thing? Will I be okay to drive the 3.5 hours home? If the cat turns out to be actually clogged and binds up after I am on the road, whats the best way to 'vent' it, a drill? Can I fit/reach enough under the car to get it on the side of the road? Any other comments, tips, ideas or questions I should ask?

many thanks for all your help
 

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Sounds like a terrible position to be in, I am sorry to hear about this. I don't get their whole train of thought about the cat and MAF. I mean maybe the MAF is bad but I don't think it went bad from a clogged cat making "heat and back pressure" come into contact with the MAF, that'd be pretty crazy to have exhaust travel backwards through the turbo's turbine wheel then back through the engine, back through the manifold, through the intercooler and pipes, back through the turbo compressor wheel and up the inlet tube to the MAF......just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Easy enough to test the cat clogged, remove the three bolts from the turbo outlet and space the downpipe about an inch away, then drive it down the block. That will let enough gas bypass to eliminate that variable.

But really they need to read the codes and start there, make sure the pipes are tight and see what comes up. Sounds like a charge pipe coupler is loose to me. MAF has its own codes, and you'd get CEL and codes for clogged cat too. This is the problem with Indy shops, too many horror stories on here about guys getting taken for rides at huge expenses.

See here, this code P1238 refers to a mass air loss between the MAF and throttle body, as detected by either a TCV signal being very high and pressure reading still very low ( otherwords the turbo is spooling but no boost being built up) or by a difference between the MAF reading higher than expected ( boost loss after turbo).........



::

Answer
That code converts to volvo code ECM-6806 and the code description as described in the volvo service manual:


284: ECM-6806 Turbocharger (TC) control system flow fault. Flow too high/low. Permanent/Intermittent fault, B6284T

Diagnostic trouble code (DTC) information

Condition
If engine speed (RPM) is above 3500 rpm and the engine is operating at a high load, the control signal to the turbocharger (TC) control valve is at maximum and the boost pressure (from boost pressure sensor) is lower than a designated value (approximately 20 kPa (2.90 psi) under normal boost pressure - signal too low).
If the air mass (from mass air flow (MAF) sensor) is higher than a desired value (signal too high) it is interpreted as a fault and diagnostic trouble code (DTC) ECM-6806 is stored.

Substitute value
reduced boost pressure

Possible source
Signal too high:
-air leakage after turbocharger (TC)
Signal too low:
-hoses between turbocharger (TC) and turbocharger (TC) control valve respectively turbocharger (TC) control valve and pressure servo are loose or are blocked/damaged
-faulty turbocharger (TC) control valve
-faulty boost pressure control (BPC) valve pressure servo
-sticking boost pressure control (BPC) valve



I'd start by making sure the hose clamps are tight at the turbo outlet and the inlet to the ETM.

Hope that helps.
 

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Wedding Eh...
Got any pictures of the bridesmaids?

Hope the car is ok too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Greenbudd
Thanks for taking the time to lay this out. I am not a mechanic by any measure but know enough to understand the basics of how air flows through the engine. Like you said I dont know how the clogged cat would ruin the MAF, it really sounds like it could just be a loose air hose and I question if our MAF is even bad(as I said before the guy got kind of defensive when I brought these points up). At this point since I asked him to put the new one it in the car, I am hoping that he will say it runs now "okay" take my money and I can just pick it up and gingerly drive home.
It is a terrible positon because I can't really afford to take 7 hour round trips more then once, if it was an hour each way I would have driven back out there and played around with it myself.
He said the part should come in yesterday afternoon or this morning and he would call me when it was installed.
Should I ask for the old part back?

Jerome

PS: Sorry no good pics of the Brides' Maids.
 

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You can ask for the old part, won't be surprised if this angers him judging by your comments, it's not unreasonable to ask for the old part, usually they won't want to give it back if it wasn't truly faulty, etc......

Hopefully it was just a bad MAF, or maybe they found the leak and wanted to do a MAF anyways, regardless I hope they fixed it and you can get it back on the road.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I am going to call today before closing, if I dont hear from them, to ask if it is installed, hopefully he will say it is running 'okay', if he does then I will ask them to save the part.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Resolution.
Mechanic just called. He said after my call the other day where I went over the outline we discussed above and what I learned from my local guy he talked to the tech and they reflected on what we talked about. When they went to pull the car in this morning to install the new MAF they decided to recheck the air lines. He took out the air box he said and Low and behold the charge line was disconnected from the turbo re attached and the car runs, no new MAF needed. He said they had done a visual inspection of the lines the other day...

Lesson I have learned is to flip the hood on the side of the road and try to use the two cents of knoledge I have and look and feel for any most obvious issues, fortunatly this lesson is only costing me $250 including the rental car instead of the $1000 he tried to push on me. They marginally redemed themself by not trying to re-screw me with the new MAF after they found what they looked over during the original 'diagnosis'.

Many Thanks for all your help, beers all around :beer:

Jerome
 

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You're lucky! You found some honest people...
 

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And there you go, nice to hear they fessed up and didn't charge you for unneeded repairs. Glad you got it fixed though.
 

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If they have a presence on the internet, like the YP, Manta or somewhere you can leave a review... you may want to at least state they were honest.
I'm happy it worked out for minumum dollars.
 
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