Consumer Reports: Cars to avoid

DFrantz · Apr 11, 2024

Thommykent said:
If Consumer Reports rated Volvo`s as cars you should buy, the naysayers here would be giving comments on how great Consumer Reports is and purchasing subscriptions for all their friends.

No... I dislike the whole mentality of caring. Any car that reliable is miserable to own. I had a camery given to me and hated it. People who do care tend to be miserable and annoy me enough with how they drive i dont want to talk to them as well when they arrive 20 minutes later. I genuinely like owning quirky cars...

ChainedAlice · Apr 11, 2024

You just summed me up pretty well. I've never, not once ever, used "reliability" as a reason I bought a car.
I'm shallow and self centered when it comes to cars. I have to like how it looks. Literally my #1.
Looks + Fun to drive = all I care about.
I've never owned an ugly car. I've had one slow car but it was the best looking of its peers. 🤣👍

slc79 · Apr 11, 2024

wagonswede said:
Mechanical damages are covered by most insurances up to 10 years for Volvo or some 15-200.000km. That's why you haven't seen alot or these.

Running the engine to the ground would render atleaart 50K Nkr for a used engine and another 50 or so for the swap.

Totally not worth keeping the car past 100.000 km.

Well, You'd think the Volvo mechanics I've been talking to would be the ones to both see and diagnose those cases you're talking about! And they have,
but it is just not as common as you get the impression of by reading on the net, and they are mostly mentioning the D2. None of the ones I talked to had ever
seen any of the T's develop this problem yet (But again, not disputing that it will happen to some).

Also, 50K for engine is way off, so is the 50K NKr for swap. I've already done the "research" on this. A T3 engine can be had for between 20-30K NKr here, and the swap
would be roughly the same amount at an independent shop. Haven't checked the prices for D2, D3, T4 and T5 but I reckon it's in the same price range. And this is
if it happens, that's not a given. There are car models out there (even from Volvo) with far higher risks of high repair bills (just look at the D5/D6 hybrids for instance). I
already did the maths.. I would simply lose too much by selling the car and buy another one which may have a completely different set of potential expensive repairs heading
its way.

If, however, you're able to provide solid hard evidence of the frequency of this, other than forum talk about it, I'd happily accept though. If I can document this properly, I
would be covered by consumer laws and could potentially be able to force the shop that sold me the car to do an engine swap before it happens even.

wagonswede · Apr 11, 2024

slc79 said:
Well, You'd think the Volvo mechanics I've been talking to would be the ones to both see and diagnose those cases you're talking about! And they have,
but it is just not as common as you get the impression of by reading on the net, and they are mostly mentioning the D2. None of the ones I talked to had ever
seen any of the T's develop this problem yet (But again, not disputing that it will happen to some).

Also, 50K for engine is way off, so is the 50K NKr for swap. I've already done the "research" on this. A T3 engine can be had for between 20-30K NKr here, and the swap
would be roughly the same amount at an independent shop. Haven't checked the prices for D2, D3, T4 and T5 but I reckon it's in the same price range. And this is
if it happens, that's not a given. There are car models out there (even from Volvo) with far higher risks of high repair bills (just look at the D5/D6 hybrids for instance). I
already did the maths.. I would simply lose too much by selling the car and buy another one which may have a completely different set of potential expensive repairs heading
its way.

If, however, you're able to provide solid hard evidence of the frequency of this, other than forum talk about it, I'd happily accept though. If I can document this properly, I
would be covered by consumer laws and could potentially be able to force the shop that sold me the car to do an engine swap before it happens even.

What am I? Your mom? I dont remember agreeing to anything here. Go find your "solid evidence" yourself if you need it, but there are a fair amount of threads regarding ruined VEA car purchases on jagrullar.se.

20kNkr for a T3 engine? As this is the lowest tier engine, if damage or failure happends to this model the insurance company would just scrap the car. Just not worth fixing it. Better availability on this engine compared to D4 and T5 is therefore not surprising which ofcouse is reflected on the pricing. This has always been the case.

Anyway it's a $10.000 job in Sweden for some of the better engine alternatives.

slc79 · Apr 11, 2024

wagonswede said:
What am I? Your mom? I dont remember agreeing to anything here. Go find your "solid evidence" yourself if you need it, but there are a fair amount of threads regarding ruined VEA car purchases on jagrullar.se.

20kNkr for a T3 engine? As this is the lowest tier engine, if damage or failure happends to this model the insurance company would just scrap the car. Just not worth fixing it. Better availability on this engine compared to D4 and T5 is therefore not surprising which ofcouse is reflected on the pricing. This has always been the case.

Anyway it's a $10.000 job in Sweden for some of the better engine alternatives.

Sheesh dude, that was some attitude. Since you're so insistant on this being a guaranteed problem I would have believed you had some real documentation that could actually be useful to prove it. A forum in which you will mostly hear about the ones with problems rather than the much larger group that do NOT have issues is not that kind of proof and no insurance company in the world would accept that as documentation either.

Also, the jagrullar-forum (yes, I am reading there too) specifically mentions D4 as the repeat offender, which might make me believe I remember incorrectly when I said D2. I was told by multiple Volvo technicians that the problems were mainly seen on one specific engine variant and not even that often. If majority of the cars with the early VEA engines failed, there would have been a LOT less of them on the roads by now. But alas, they're EVERYWHERE.

I also checked what it would cost for a D4.. as I assumed, it's pretty much the same. I also think you underestimate the insurance companies and their willingness to repair cars. In Norway they will repair if cost do not exceed 80% of the car's current value. For example the T2/T3 V60s go for around 180-200K NKr still, and even if what you said were true, these cars wouldn't just vanish without a trace. A technician would still have to diagnose it and conclude bust engine. In these cases insurance companies (at least in Norway) tend to turn to the dealerships own shops.

wagonswede · Apr 11, 2024

slc79 said:
Sheesh dude, that was some attitude. Since you're so insistant on this being a guaranteed problem I would have believed you had some real documentation that could actually be useful to prove it. A forum in which you will mostly hear about the ones with problems rather than the much larger group that do NOT have issues is not that kind of proof and no insurance company in the world would accept that as documentation either.

Also, the jagrullar-forum (yes, I am reading there too) specifically mentions D4 as the repeat offender, which might make me believe I remember incorrectly when I said D2. I was told by multiple Volvo technicians that the problems were mainly seen on one specific engine variant and not even that often. If majority of the cars with the early VEA engines failed, there would have been a LOT less of them on the roads by now. But alas, they're EVERYWHERE.

I also checked what it would cost for a D4.. as I assumed, it's pretty much the same. I also think you underestimate the insurance companies and their willingness to repair cars. In Norway they will repair if cost do not exceed 80% of the car's current value. For example the T2/T3 V60s go for around 180-200K NKr still, and even if what you said were true, these cars wouldn't just vanish without a trace. A technician would still have to diagnose it and conclude bust engine. In these cases insurance companies (at least in Norway) tend to turn to the dealerships own shops.

The documentation is in the Volvo technical journal covering the ring issue that's been mentioned here multiple times. There it is clearly described which engines are impacted, all VEA engines up to a specific serial number.

If you need it for your own reference its your own responsibility to find it. No one is going to do your work for you.

slc79 · Apr 11, 2024

wagonswede said:
The documentation is in the Volvo technical journal covering the ring issue that's been mentioned here multiple times. There it is clearly described which engines are impacted, all VEA engines up to a specific serial number.

If you need it for your own reference its your own responsibility to find it. No one is going to do your work for you.

That TJ does not say "this is a fault that will kill your car for sure", it only tells you what to do if an issue occurs. TJs are not an admission of faults. If you treated all TJs as proof of a faulty vehicle, no Volvos would ever be worth anything with that logic.

Second, that TJ is for the North American market. While in this case it covers something that also is valid here, it would not be accepted as a proof. How do I know? I had to really work for it to have my thermostat replaced on warranty, and according to the North American TJ this was a crucial fix. This TJ is not active in Europe, and does not come up if a European dealer try to look it up. They were also reluctant to do the change it because the "only" thing I had to show for was the DTC saying it was faulty, and I was told that "if car works OK there is no problem". In my case I would not even be able to refer to that particular TJ covering the piston ring issue even if they had accepted it as proof as it doesn't even list my engine code (B4154T4) and I was able to find one single case with this engine code on a forum.

So when reaching out to ask if there was any hard proof that could be used, I was only reaching out for help, as one most often do on forums like this, so there's no need with that attitude. It's not as if I haven't been looking, but been unable to find anything useful that is really solid. It's not as if I were asking in a particularly rude way or even in a demanding way.

Keymaster · Apr 11, 2024

The vast majority of drivers don't care about having fun driving a car, they want something that's reliable and gets them where they want to go and does the things they need. That's why there's a tiny fraction of people on sites like this for all brands, for the most part people just buy their cars and drive them, and maybe get the maintenance done on time (or nowadays when the car tells them to, which is an indication of how often people blow it off). Really, most people would be best served with an electric car that drove itself, they just don't care enough otherwise.

My first car was a rusted out 76 Camaro my parents found for like $500, all the cars after that were fun cars that were also reliable...the fun driving part was the more important thing to me, I knew the brands (Toyota, Mazda) made cars that could last if I took care of them. With my new V60, reliable was way up there, along with being a wagon, because this is really a car for toting my daughter around...the extra money spent to get the Polestar was for me. It is important to remember that people buy cars for lots of reasons, and that's just fine if they aren't your reasons.

ChainedAlice · Apr 11, 2024

Keymaster said:
The vast majority of drivers don't care about having fun driving a car, they want something that's reliable and gets them where they want to go and does the things they need.

Top ten reason people buy the cars they do according to NY Daily News:
1 Reliability
2 Styling
3 Previous Exp w/Brand
4 Reputation / Reviews
5 Ride / Handling
6 Price
7 & 8 Safety -tied with- Fuel Economy
9 Perceived quality
10 AWD\FWD

Style, Looks: #2. Even "normies" don't want to drive cars they think are ugly.

It is important to remember that people buy cars for lots of reasons, and that's just fine if they aren't your reasons.

I don't think any if us are really trying to shame someone for why they buy cars.

DFrantz · Apr 11, 2024

ChainedAlice said:
Top ten reason people buy the cars they do according to NY Daily News:
1 Reliability
2 Styling
3 Previous Exp w/Brand
4 Reputation / Reviews
5 Ride / Handling
6 Price
7 & 8 Safety -tied with- Fuel Economy
9 Perceived quality
10 AWD\FWD

Style, Looks: #2. Even "normies" don't want to drive cars they think are ugly.

I don't think any if us are really trying to shame someone for why they buy cars.

I don't believe reliability being number 1 at all. I started selling cars in 2008 can certainly reliability comes up, but it's never been the top reason for any person I have ever sold a car to... granted, maybe I have just never sold reliable cars. I'd say styling can't possible be number two either, or else everyone is just stupid as crossovers tend to be in the top spot after the pick up trucks.

Previous experience with brand (read, with local dealer) is big for sure. Price is higher than ride and handling and probably close to the top, the reality of budget matters more or else everyone would be getting luxury or sport cars. Safety lower than fuel economy (until I started selling Volvos, obviously I hear about safety alot here). I don't see how perceived quality can be at 9 and reliability at 1 on the same survey. And AWD/FWD is far higher too.... very few customers are indifferent... in fact, for the majority in my area (and I would imagine for NY as well), there are customers who won't ever consider a FWD car.

I know my tastes are different than avg consumers. I'm also not trying to say I'm right for you and your boring life. =-D

ChainedAlice · Apr 11, 2024

IDK... It seems like in the popular "What Car Should I buy" sub-reddit... Reliability seems to be #1 to a ridiculous amount of people.

thecanadaman · Apr 11, 2024

ChainedAlice said:
Top ten reason people buy the cars they do according to NY Daily News:
1 Reliability
2 Styling
3 Previous Exp w/Brand
4 Reputation / Reviews
5 Ride / Handling
6 Price
7 & 8 Safety -tied with- Fuel Economy
9 Perceived quality
10 AWD\FWD

Style, Looks: #2. Even "normies" don't want to drive cars they think are ugly.

I don't think any if us are really trying to shame someone for why they buy cars.

If you look at the industry AS A WHOLE, this is probably about right. But there are reasons why one chooses one vehicle over another.

For Volvo, safety may actually be point #1 for instance but I'd say a lot of this list would look different as to what people look for in a Volvo. Just like styling would fall much lower for a Toyota buyer and I could go on and on.

maggs · Apr 17, 2024

richardGG24 said:
As a practicing econometrician myself, these reports always make me laugh (especially that JD power dependability report or whatever it's called, nearly everyone misinterprets the results). Admittingly, I'm not exactly familiar with CR's research methodology or how good their statisticians are, but I definitely won't recommend taking the results out of the context of their surveyed samples. I heard they only survey their subscribers, so that alone is a screaming red flag, unless they can prove otherwise, and I'm not even trying to go down the rabbit hole of survey design....

I subscribe to CR and bought a factory ordered 2020 V90 in June of 2020. In all of the years I've owned my car, I've never received a survey to provide feedback on my V. As it turns out, I never went into "preferences" in my CR account and checked off "member surveys" (found this out today, when I contacted CR). One would think, since CR is in the "survey" business, that all CR members would be automatically selected for receiving surveys, unless they opt out. This might provide for a wider survey audience. With this said, while I don't discredit CR's survey results in total, I harbor some skepticism. As for me, when buying a new car, I prefer exercising patience and waiting for (at the very minimum) three model years to go by before purchasing a specific model. This way, hopefully, most of the bugs from the earlier years are ironed out. This approach has worked well for me with my 2020 V90.

Keymaster · Apr 17, 2024

maggs said:
I subscribe to CR and bought a factory ordered 2020 V90 in June of 2020. In all of the years I've owned my car, I've never received a survey to provide feedback on my V. As it turns out, I never went into "preferences" in my CR account and checked off "member surveys" (found this out today, when I contacted CR). One would think, since CR is in the "survey" business, that all CR members would be automatically selected for receiving surveys, unless they opt out. This might provide for a wider survey audience. With this said, while I don't discredit CR's survey results in total, I harbor some skepticism. As for me, when buying a new car, I prefer exercising patience and waiting for (at the very minimum) three model years to go by before purchasing a specific model. This way, hopefully, most of the bugs from the earlier years are ironed out. This approach has worked well for me with my 2020 V90.

I'm also a CR member (after my dad passed I took it over), and they continually pester me about filling out surveys when the quarter comes around. Maybe they give up on people if you don't respond, or maybe you set your membership up early enough that they defaulted to "no" and now they do "yes". It used to be companies would ask you do to stuff instead of making you opt out.

Georgia J · Apr 17, 2024

For all you short time owners. Nothing but Volvos for me since 1991. First was a 1991 740 Sedan (US modell) Via European delivery. Regretfully did not have the time or the sense to pick up at the factory. Added a used 740 Estate (Euro Model) while still living in Germany. Brought the sedan back to the States, ocean freight courtesy of Volvo with pick up by me at POE. That 740 disappeared at 900k+. due to lack of care by ex-son-in-law. Had added a new1997 850 sedan, which was a rare model, tricked out with all the R visuals. Finally had to pull away at 500k in 2009 when the A/C failed and repairs estimates were more than the value of the car. As you probably know, there were no US 2009 S60’s so my dealer found a 2008 that had just come off lease with 10k miles. This was a model and year that Volvo should be ashamed of. Cannot list all the failures of design. Can only recommend the Premium Sound system and the front seats. So when the 2010’s became available I purchased a new S60. Was a great car but I fell for a2015.5 V60XC. Still have it, with only 75k miles.
My complaints:
1. cost of routine maintenance (my wife has a Honda CRV with similar mileage to my Volvo. Her routine maintenance costs at similar mileposts are 1/4 to 1/3 of my Volvo's)
2 Lack of support to the dealers by Volvo USA on technical issues
3. Cost of any major part (A/C, alternator, etc. I've had.have BMW's and Volvo parts and service rival them. Not the place to be competitive in the wrong direction)

Ruby2001S60NA · Apr 18, 2024

I do the repairs on my wife and son P3 S60's. The parts do COST. However, when we were restoring the P1 S60, I thought the parts prices were on the low end.

Racerx94 · Apr 18, 2024

DFrantz said:
I don't believe reliability being number 1 at all. I started selling cars in 2008 can certainly reliability comes up, but it's never been the top reason for any person I have ever sold a car to... granted, maybe I have just never sold reliable cars. I'd say styling can't possible be number two either, or else everyone is just stupid as crossovers tend to be in the top spot after the pick up trucks.

Previous experience with brand (read, with local dealer) is big for sure. Price is higher than ride and handling and probably close to the top, the reality of budget matters more or else everyone would be getting luxury or sport cars. Safety lower than fuel economy (until I started selling Volvos, obviously I hear about safety alot here). I don't see how perceived quality can be at 9 and reliability at 1 on the same survey. And AWD/FWD is far higher too.... very few customers are indifferent... in fact, for the majority in my area (and I would imagine for NY as well), there are customers who won't ever consider a FWD car.

I know my tastes are different than avg consumers. I'm also not trying to say I'm right for you and your boring life. =-D

When we started looking for a new mid-sized PHEV SUV, we never considered a Volvo.
Until we started looking at specs for pure electric drive range versus others on the market.
For us here in the Midwest.
1. Pure electric range
2. Styling
3. Price
4. Comfort
5. Availability
6. Reliability
7. Warranty
Ended up with an MY24 XC60 T8. 4 months and 5800 miles later we are really happy with our choice!

cdauerer · Apr 18, 2024

Georgia J said:
For all you short time owners. Nothing but Volvos for me since 1991. First was a 1991 740 Sedan (US modell) Via European delivery. Regretfully did not have the time or the sense to pick up at the factory. Added a used 740 Estate (Euro Model) while still living in Germany. Brought the sedan back to the States, ocean freight courtesy of Volvo with pick up by me at POE. That 740 disappeared at 900k+. due to lack of care by ex-son-in-law. Had added a new1997 850 sedan, which was a rare model, tricked out with all the R visuals. Finally had to pull away at 500k in 2009 when the A/C failed and repairs estimates were more than the value of the car. As you probably know, there were no US 2009 S60’s so my dealer found a 2008 that had just come off lease with 10k miles. This was a model and year that Volvo should be ashamed of. Cannot list all the failures of design. Can only recommend the Premium Sound system and the front seats. So when the 2010’s became available I purchased a new S60. Was a great car but I fell for a2015.5 V60XC. Still have it, with only 75k miles.
My complaints:
1. cost of routine maintenance (my wife has a Honda CRV with similar mileage to my Volvo. Her routine maintenance costs at similar mileposts are 1/4 to 1/3 of my Volvo's)
2 Lack of support to the dealers by Volvo USA on technical issues
3. Cost of any major part (A/C, alternator, etc. I've had.have BMW's and Volvo parts and service rival them. Not the place to be competitive in the wrong direction)

I am curious why you feel that VCUSA does not provide enough technical support to Volvo Retailers.

Canucklehead · Apr 18, 2024

^ to date i've found parts cost not too bad. albeit, in a short time of ownership. preventative maintenance part cost seems reasonably inline with mainline cars. especially through judicious use of online and aftermarket options. consumables are not orders-of-magnitude more than what i've seen with previous vehicles (infiniti, genesis, toyota, etc). the V60 is a premium vehicle, not a Corolla, so one must expect a generally higher cost of ownership but so far it has been within range. brake parts, fluids, filters, wiper blades, misc maintenance parts, accessories, etc, do not seem way high.

of course, i have not yet had to deal with anything majoras we are still within warranty, or where only OEM part is required. so Georgia J may well be correct when that time comes. we did have the liftgate struts replaced under warranty and that tab would have come to ~$1k+ all-in which is certainly no joke. but those are dealer prices and if i had to do it on my own dime i'd not use a dealer (either DIY or use independent labour, as with any non-warranty repair) so i don't hold that as a reality for myself.

this also goes for routine maintenance. as with most cars, a guy can do far better in terms of pricing and support by going DIY, using independent service centres, or a combination of both. if someone must have the fancy coffee machine and shiny waiting room, or simply not be bothered to find alternate service options, then the dealer is for them and that is great. paying $165 for a cabin filter is cool for some folks. my cost is ~$30 plus 10 minutes of time. i do that to offset the times i want to leave the messy work to the pro's - like brake fluid exchange. i'll pay $100 (independent) or even $140 (dealer) to avoid the headache and disposal, even though it is not difficult. to each his own i suppose...

mwmeci · Apr 18, 2024

Back to the CR article. In 2011 I bought a new E350 4matic MB. CR advised against it. 3 yrs later it was on their recommended used car list. Mine was extremely reliable and cheap to maintain. I traded it in at 109k miles with the original back brakes on it for a new 2020 XC60T6 inscription because my lower back liked entering and exiting the compact SUV better. The Volvo has been just like the MB, perfect.

Consumer Reports: Cars to avoid

DFrantz

ChainedAlice

slc79

wagonswede

slc79

wagonswede

slc79

Keymaster

ChainedAlice

DFrantz

ChainedAlice

thecanadaman

maggs

Keymaster

Georgia J

Ruby2001S60NA

Racerx94

cdauerer

Canucklehead

mwmeci

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