S60 T5 '12, replacing trans fluid or in-tank filter?

bcar60 · Apr 30, 2021

We have a 2012 S60 T5 with currently around 175k miles and have a maintenance community opinion question.
We are starting to have occasional minor issues with the transmission, it seems like it sometimes shudders on moderate/heavy acceleration upshifts (hesitates and then roughly grabs the next gear) and occasionally downshifts very hard, like it waits too long and then slams into the lower gear (especially when braking).
The dealer basically refuses to do any transmission checks/maintenance (unless it throws a code) on the grounds that it's a "lifetime fill" unit. Every mechanic I trust has recommended still doing fluid changes on most lifetime fill transmissions every 100k or so, or at least once after the warranty expires, suggesting “lifetime fill” is really “warranty period fill”. At this point I’m not really sure since we have so many miles on it now, I’ve heard the warnings against suddenly changing fluid in a higher mileage trans.
I’m curious about what others are doing on their cars or if there's any general advice or best practices. Should I demand they change the fluid or perform other inspections? After I recently asked them to check for software updates, they said there was some sort of software/ECU update that involved the transmission and it was supposed to improve shifts and shift time. I can definitely tell that update did something and it has seemed a little faster and smoother since then, I think I remember them saying something about the new software compensating for wear as the transmissions age.

There is also sometimes a throttle response issue, it can kind of stutter under medium/heavy acceleration like power delivery is fluttering. Sort of feels like either a boost delivery or fueling problem, maybe a clogging fuel filter. There's no external fuel filter, dealer says only a pump-sock type filter in the tank that’s also a "lifetime part.” Might be related, we've been getting a very intermittent thrown code, P0089, with no clear cause. I think it’s only come up twice, about a year apart and it doesn't come back after a reset (until a year later the first time). Dealer just shrugged on that one, since it wasn’t on when we brought the car in.

Tech · Apr 30, 2021

What happens if you have them flush it and it gets worse? That's why we don't flush them. If someone with that mileage insisted, I'd have them sign something saying they understand it may not improve anything and may make it worse.

As for the fuel pump, with that code I'd start with the fuel pressure sensor. They also should have checked the fuel pump duty cycle parameter, which basically is a measure of how hard the pump is working to produce the correct pressure.

mediabybrenm · May 1, 2021

Let's first establish the difference between a transmission flush and a drain and fill. As tech mentioned, flushing a gearbox at that high mileage is risky. It might go ok, but it also might be the end of the box. A drain and fill, however, is safer on higher mileage sealed for life units. Even at 100k, my car would have been a risky one to flush, but I had an independent shop do a drain and fill. The car felt great afterward and still does. Either way, these Aisin gearboxes are very particular about their fluid, and at 175k, your fluid is far from top shape. If I was buying one of these cars new, I'd change it out at a 60k interval.

bcar60 · May 1, 2021

Gotcha, thanks, yeah that's why I'm checking. I don't want to ask for it if its got high risk potential to cause problems. I haven't owned many automatic transmissions, and most of those were ones with a dipstick and regular fluid change intervals. I am not sure what all newer technology allows for these lifetime fill units that are supposed to last virtually indefinite years and miles, whether it's lower wear internals, better design, special fluid, etc. Since it's cleared stated as "lifetime" I would totally understand the service group wanting to protect themselves from liability in such a case. However, we are interested in having the vehicle last as long as possible and want to try to consider the best option for mechanical longevity. As hinted at before, the vehicle manual and service guidelines/etc. are probably primarily intended to get the car through the warranty, and we'd like it to go several times that far and just want to make sure we are doing all we can.

My understanding from talking with a few mechanics and reading "internet experts" was that swapping the fluid out at least once to get rid of the factory fill should be theoretically beneficial, since that fluid would contain all the early wear particles and anything from the break-in period and initial run-in of the transmission. Supposedly getting that out so it doesn't continue to recirculate is proposed as a good idea by many (generically though, I have not seen mentions for Volvo transmissions specifically.)

For the fuel pump, I will keep that info in mind and try to start checking on that. I might be able to get some of that info on my OBDII scanner, but maybe not without the special Volvo reader. The dealer basically just recommended we wait and see if we got the CEL again and bring the car back in. I do have good confidence in the dealer's quality of work, but I do find that they often seem to try to avoid taking on jobs requiring more extensive diagnostics. They probably have more than enough regular service and straightforward repair work and tend to not go looking for more difficult jobs. They didn't say as much, but I kind of got a "keep driving until it breaks more so it's easier to find the problem" vibe. Also, their recommendation was that if we do have to end up getting into the fuel tank or get at the pump/filter, it's probably best to replace the whole pump assembly.

Tech · May 1, 2021

bcar60 said:
Also, their recommendation was that if we do have to end up getting into the fuel tank or get at the pump/filter, it's probably best to replace the whole pump assembly.

I agree. The fuel pump would be the next step after the pressure sensor for that code. I don't even know if Volvo sells the screen separately.

jlh3rd · May 1, 2021

I have a 2012 S60, t5. I'm a proponent of transmission complete drain and refills. I don't believe in "lifetime" fluids. I'm also not a supporter of power flushes with higher mileage fluids like yours. I firmly believe regular refills dramatically extend the life of any transmissions, along with adding auxiliary coolers.
What have you got to lose if you perform a complete drain and refill? If you can't do it, hopefully find someone who can. Since the dealer has already shown disdain for doing them, I wouldn't trust them to do it, and I'd not do a power flush.
Also, you have to do a tranny reset using vida/dice.
My fluid change around 11,000 miles ago ended the occasional "bang" when selecting drive.
If it was my car, I'd empty and refill, but honestly, at 175,000 miles, I'm sure your fluid is toast and there is permanent damage.

jlh3rd · May 1, 2021

also, I don't know of anyone who just sells a pump screen. And if they did, I wouldn't go to all that trouble of pulling the pump just to replace the screen and re-installing a pump with 175,000 miles on it.

Eric T Johnson · May 1, 2021

My 2005 S60 2.5T had the original transmission fluid, and 102K on the odometer when I bought the car, in 2017. I changed the fluid at 110K, and the car continues to run well. At 175K, your transmission has worn parts but it is still working well enough to drive the car. A fluid change won't dramatically improve transmission operation, and there is a possibility that it will remove some gunk that is helping the transmission operate. Even so, if it was my car, I would get the transmission fluid changed. Fresh fluid will do a better job of lubricating parts. I drained and replaced the fluid myself, but you might be able to find an independent mechanic to do this for you.

halfast3 · May 1, 2021

There are drain and refill tutorials online. I did one on our XC70 last year...took about 3.5 liters IIRC.

Also, there's a software update called Level 2.0 which really improved the drivability of our V60CC and our XC70. Not sure if it is appropriate for your model year. Perhaps Tech can chime in here...?

Tech · May 1, 2021

halfast3 said:
There are drain and refill tutorials online. I did one on our XC70 last year...took about 3.5 liters IIRC.

Also, there's a software update called Level 2.0 which really improved the drivability of our V60CC and our XC70. Not sure if it is appropriate for your model year. Perhaps Tech can chime in here...?

Sounds like they already updated the software.

mediabybrenm · May 1, 2021

Assuming you want to go ahead with the drain and fill, which I and the others here would recommend, here's my advice. There are a lot of fantastic tutorials online, and I'll attach my favorite below. Even though that's a different car, it's the same gearbox.

Keep in mind that you will absolutely need VIDA to do this, so I'd probably have an independent shop handle it if you don't already have the unit. The transmission has learned to adapt to the old fluid that it's grown used to, so you need to tell it that it's got new juice. You might be able to get away with not doing this step if the fluid was only 30k old, but at 175k, you'll need to reset that fluid counter.

bcar60 · May 3, 2021

Thanks so far all!
I guess I had been hoping the drain and fill wouldn't disturb things too much or create problems, guess there's always at least a small risk though and I haven't decided yet. I regret not looking into this earlier, we just kept de-prioritizing it since we kept figuring if it was advertised as "lifetime fill" so a little longer wouldn't hurt.

That video was interesting and good explanations. Makes sense to use several drain and fills to clean things out without intense flushing, his results looked pretty good. Doesn't look too difficult. I don't have the interface and software so might look for a good independent shop for this one. But depending on cost it might be worth investing in the VIDA/DICE and doing it myself. Wondering if it might be safer to take it in even larger steps, like maybe only swapping out the fluid once (instead of multiple drain/fills) and driving like that. Guess you could go back and change it again after a little mileage or wait 60k or whenever you wanted to swap again. Maybe that would help create a more gradual transition, but not sure if it would really make a difference for the risks involved since you are already messing with the fluid.

Makes sense the filter screen isn't available separately, as it's supposed to be a lifetime part for the pump. To clarify, it sounded like our service dept was saying anytime they have to work "on or near" the fuel tank/pump, they'd recommend replacing the entire pump assembly as preventative maintenance (like doing a water pump with timing belt). Almost sounded like they like to take the opportunity to swap it out when they can (not sure if that's indicative of them seeing issues with the system or if that is something all dealers do). I'll have to followup on the info/testing provided to see if we can track anything more down. It does make it harder since it's not actively throwing a code at current. Is there anything else we should be keeping our eye out for?

Tech said:
Sounds like they already updated the software.

I believe they did, hopefully everything to the most recent. Not sure what exactly was changed, but definite all around improvement. For others, not sure what the normal policies are but I had to specifically ask them to check for new software/updates (there was more than one available for our car). It appears checking for updates is not always done as part of regular service. Another dealer told me they only normally do updates if the car is demonstrating a problem the update is supposed to address (per a TSB, etc.)

mediabybrenm · May 3, 2021

bcar60 said:
Thanks so far all!
I guess I had been hoping the drain and fill wouldn't disturb things too much or create problems, guess there's always at least a small risk though and I haven't decided yet. I regret not looking into this earlier, we just kept de-prioritizing it since we kept figuring if it was advertised as "lifetime fill" so a little longer wouldn't hurt.

That video was interesting and good explanations. Makes sense to use several drain and fills to clean things out without intense flushing, his results looked pretty good. Doesn't look too difficult. I don't have the interface and software so might look for a good independent shop for this one. But depending on cost it might be worth investing in the VIDA/DICE and doing it myself. Wondering if it might be safer to take it in even larger steps, like maybe only swapping out the fluid once (instead of multiple drain/fills) and driving like that. Guess you could go back and change it again after a little mileage or wait 60k or whenever you wanted to swap again. Maybe that would help create a more gradual transition, but not sure if it would really make a difference for the risks involved since you are already messing with the fluid.

Makes sense the filter screen isn't available separately, as it's supposed to be a lifetime part for the pump. To clarify, it sounded like our service dept was saying anytime they have to work "on or near" the fuel tank/pump, they'd recommend replacing the entire pump assembly as preventative maintenance (like doing a water pump with timing belt). Almost sounded like they like to take the opportunity to swap it out when they can (not sure if that's indicative of them seeing issues with the system or if that is something all dealers do). I'll have to followup on the info/testing provided to see if we can track anything more down. It does make it harder since it's not actively throwing a code at current. Is there anything else we should be keeping our eye out for?

I believe they did, hopefully everything to the most recent. Not sure what exactly was changed, but definite all around improvement. For others, not sure what the normal policies are but I had to specifically ask them to check for new software/updates (there was more than one available for our car). It appears checking for updates is not always done as part of regular service. Another dealer told me they only normally do updates if the car is demonstrating a problem the update is supposed to address (per a TSB, etc.)

You're on the right track with the drain and fill. As a matter of fact, I've heard of folks doing exactly what you propose, changing a small amount, drive around a bit, repeat. If you are going to do it yourself, this is reasonable, but at a shop, the cost would be prohibitive. Even though that won't hurt anything, you might as well just do it how they did in the video, which is an equally safe method, especially when done properly with a DICE unit.

S60 T5 '12, replacing trans fluid or in-tank filter?

bcar60

Tech

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bcar60

Tech

jlh3rd

jlh3rd

Eric T Johnson

halfast3

Tech

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bcar60

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