P0336 - Crankshaft position sensor A Circuit Range Performance

tmtalpey · Dec 17, 2016

There's not really any such thing as a "VIDA code". VIDA is a proprietary Volvo application that is used by subscription. DICE is a Volvo diagnostic adapter, which VIDA uses to read the car. DTCs are Diagnostic Trouble Codes which VIDA reads via DICE.

THe iCarsoft looks like it may read them, but I don't know. Maybe someone else here does. The VIDA DICE link looks like it's a chinese knockoff DiCE unit. There are many of those on the market. Some of them include a pirated version of VIDA. I'm not going to offer any suggestion there. You can read those of others in the diagnostic forum here: http://forums.swedespeed.com/forumdisplay.php?121-OBD-CANBUS-amp-Engine-Management

Yes, it might be a different code if it's the camshaft position sensor. But, generic codes are just that - generic. The authority is the DTC code.

The crankshaft position and speed sensor are one and the same, as I described. The ECM computes both values from one set of inputs.

TG · Dec 17, 2016

I see, thank you for the all the details.

I just came back from the auto part store. They said the battery seems good but needs a charge.
They gave me a receipt that states:
Votage: 12.25v
Measured: 577 CCA
Rated: 700 CCA
Temperature: 70°F

I decided to hold of on the new battery for now.

The guy said it could be the alternator which I guess it could be...
I'm charging the battery right now. Will do an other attempt to turn the car on after that since the temperature have risen a bit.

I will look at the cables but it may have to be towed to the Volvo dealer which is probably going to cost me pretty pennies

I feel a little bit helpless to diagnose where the problem comes from...

edit: Oh and I forgot to mentioned it did one pop at the exhaust the last time I tried which could mean that some gas was pumped in the cylinder and that it might indeed be an ignition/power issue...

tmtalpey · Dec 17, 2016

That's a very tired battery. What's the date code? Charge it up and see what happens.

You should never get a "pop" at the exhaust. Something's definitely wrong in a sensor, somewhere.

TG · Dec 17, 2016

tmtalpey said:
That's a very tired battery. What's the date code? Charge it up and see what happens.

You should never get a "pop" at the exhaust. Something's definitely wrong in a sensor, somewhere.

The battery is from September 2011. I don't know how you can tell it is a very tired battery... I might still change it soon.

Well a bit of good news tonight... Since the battery was out I charged it outside the car. The temperature having risen the charge seems to be holding more easily, which would go along with the symptoms of the problem getting worse as the temperature dropped significantly.
I just dropped it back in the car and it fired right up. So I'm thinking it's now more likely an ignition/power issue and quite possibly my alternator not charging the battery properly. Maybe the alternator is going out (it is 11yrs old with only 70k miles or so on the clock). Or maybe it is indeed the battery which could not hold the CCA and low temps.

I'm going to do a test overnight to see if the battery being in the car is affected, and see if there could be a discharge happening...

As for the pop I can only speculate, but my guess is that when I tried multiple time to start the car some fuel was injected in some cylinders which would not get ignited immediately but later and might have fired during a second attempt. It wasn't a loud pop.

tmtalpey · Dec 17, 2016

TG said:
The battery is from September 2011. I don't know how you can tell it is a very tired battery...

Just an observation from the 12.5V output and the 577CCA capacity estimate. Hopefully it will hold a fresh charge and all will be good!

It's a bit suspect that the crank position sensor would be the first issue to crop up from a weak charge, but hey anything could happen. If it's running, take it to a Volvo dealer and ask them to scan for codes and give you a "complimentary diagnostic" (http://www.volvocars.com/us/own/service-by-volvo/promises). This should give you information about the alternator, and many other elusive things.

avenger09123 · Dec 18, 2016

Did they run a load test? Your post doesn't specify if they did, just says they hooked up the standard print receipt machine, which was great on my wife's told us we had like 450 out of 490 CCA, but you put a load test on it it went down to 9v within 3 seconds and 400cca.

That being said, if yours is that much lower, it's going to go on you soon. Be careful, bad battery voltage spikes can destroy your entire harness, which is an expensive part.

TG · Dec 18, 2016

tmtalpey said:
Just an observation from the 12.5V output and the 577CCA capacity estimate. Hopefully it will hold a fresh charge and all will be good!

It's a bit suspect that the crank position sensor would be the first issue to crop up from a weak charge, but hey anything could happen. If it's running, take it to a Volvo dealer and ask them to scan for codes and give you a "complimentary diagnostic" (http://www.volvocars.com/us/own/service-by-volvo/promises). This should give you information about the alternator, and many other elusive things.

Yes, we'll see in the morning. It's not that the problem is solved by any means.
Most likely I still have an issue I need to solve. the car isn't reliable and it's likely I won't be able to restart between charges. But if I can take it to the shop on Monday, at least it will save me the trouble of towing the car! and that's a big plus. The fact that it started again gives me hope that it may not be a huge deal. Though if it is the alternator it may still be a pretty big expense to replace. I don't think I want to take on that one myself.

I feel pretty good about the fact that the CEL showed up when I insisted with my attempts. I've replicated the problem and it's after maybe the third or forth attempts or so that the cell shows up. So technically the CEL isn't from the low charge but rather from not reaching the correct performance data expected of the engine. Perhaps it start monitoring the crankshaft position even if their is no ignition which after trying a few times triggers an unexpected value. But I'm speculating here. What do i know...

Funny enough I just got a coupon from service at the Volvo dealership . . . go figure, good timing I guess...

Not a bad idea on the "complimentary diagnostic"

avenger09123 said:
Did they run a load test? Your post doesn't specify if they did, just says they hooked up the standard print receipt machine, which was great on my wife's told us we had like 450 out of 490 CCA, but you put a load test on it it went down to 9v within 3 seconds and 400cca.
.

Yes, that's what they did and why I got a receipt, from the tool they use to do the load test...

TG · Dec 18, 2016

Gave the battery a charge last night.
Unplugged the charger before the night.
The car started without any problem this afternoon.

How does one test an alternator?

avenger09123 · Dec 18, 2016

TG said:
Gave the battery a charge last night.
Unplugged the charger before the night.
The car started without any problem this afternoon.

How does one test an alternator?

Take it out, take it to an autozone style place, they bolt it into a frame, attach a belt and hook it up to a meter that checks where it should be versus where it is.

And I don't know any true load tester that prints out a receipt. I'm just trying to make sure they didn't dupe you by telling you what most half-assed people do:
This or any form of this is NOT a true load tester no matter what they tell you:

This IS a true load tester, and they all look the same big square metal boxes that do NOT print out a receipt (simply because a load test with that much electricity puts off more than enough heat to ruin part of that thermal printing paper)

TG · Dec 19, 2016

Yesterday the car started fine after I recharged it the night before and left it in the car over night (unplugged from the charger but connected to the car)
So at least I think I don't have a weird wiring discharge issue.

I think it is going to be either the battery (still), the alternator, or something else ignition related.
If I find time today I'll pock around and possibly take the car to the Volvo dealer for a diagnostic if I do not find anything unusual.
I'm on the fence about changing the battery especially if it's going to be something else, I don't need to add to the $$ damage...

avenger09123 said:
Take it out, take it to an autozone style place, they bolt it into a frame, attach a belt and hook it up to a meter that checks where it should be versus where it is.

And I don't know any true load tester that prints out a receipt. I'm just trying to make sure they didn't dupe you by telling you what most half-assed people do:
This or any form of this is NOT a true load tester no matter what they tell you:

This IS a true load tester, and they all look the same big square metal boxes that do NOT print out a receipt (simply because a load test with that much electricity puts off more than enough heat to ruin part of that thermal printing paper)

Well, their suitcase size battery tester had a paper roll in it... I can only suppose it's doing what it's meant to do. After all I would assume they would be more inclined to err on the side of having me replace the battery...

TG · Dec 26, 2016

I decided to take it to the Volvo dealer since I don't have a reputable independent shop at the moment (my favorite guy closed down

)
They haven't found anything wrong with the car. The car starts just fine. No unusual codes was recorded either except the wrong software (the tune I have) The temperatures were very mild today so my wild (but pretty confident) guess is that it will act-up again when the temperatures drop significantly again

I tried to probe about a possible issue with the alternator getting old, or issues with harnesses, but was told that if it was the alternator the car would throw a code or wouldn't crank, or have a hard time "cranking". They also didn't want to try to do some software work because of the tune I have. I fully can appreciate that, but I really doubt it has anything to do with software or that a software tweak would fix it after all this time. I've had this tune for years now (5-6yrs) no issues. It seems to me that they rely too much on software diagnostics to give them the answer... it's sad that car makers and brand shops have become so dependent on consumerism that I'm not too certain they do a lot of old fashion trouble shooting... despite the high price hourly rate.

So back to square one... I feel confident it has something to do with the cold temperature but what???

I may change the battery anyway just to see if it makes any difference... winter isn't over yet so we'll see how it goes... but I'm a bit disappointed

TG · Dec 27, 2016

FYI: A little lame for not having found the problem...

avenger09123 · Dec 27, 2016

Lmao. You can never use aftermarket X or Y because Z may never work again. Lmao. Dealerships, I tell ya. Gigantic piles of human waste.

That being said considering they are related, I would write your tune guys and see if their software even touches this system in any way or just rewrites fuel/air tables. If they write back a negative, then you literally are back to square one. With the battery.

TG · Dec 27, 2016

I'm pretty certain it has nothing to do with that software. I've had it for a very long time. The only impact it could have had is long term wear but I don't drive the car very hard most of the time so it's likely something else related to the car aging. And I feel pretty good about the fact that freezing temp temperature makes it dramatically worse.

I keep asking myself what would be affected by freezing temperature to the point it would prevent ignition?... The battery could be one for sure but the Volvo place does have a point, the crank still works. So what else? It would be something that doesn't trigger a CEL other than crankshaft related cel from cracking to many times in arrow and too long...

What ever it si is most likely electric or fuel distribution related. or perhaps something that get's too tight with the cold...

And come to think of it, I could see that if I try to crank too much without ignition, it could possibly drain the battery too much, especially when the temperature are extremely cold, that at some point it wouldn't start at all.

theshadow27 · Dec 27, 2016

Have you replaced the battery yet? There is so much that can go wrong with a bad battery and 5 years is pushing it for any battery (even AGM). You could be chasing gremlins forever unless you know for sure the battery is good I would start there.

Last year when I got everything back together after the timing belt failure, I put in a brand new high end AGM. Early this year it started having issues, which turned out to be a "hidden" bad cell - with the digital analyzer it looked fine, but it caused all sorts of problems after sitting for a while or when cold. Trickle charging it helped for the first start, but not subsequent starts. I refused to believe it was the battery because it was brand new, the voltages were good, and the test showed OK. Even after sitting for weeks the voltage looked OK, but the car would have all sorts of ABS and engine lights after starting, the radio would refuse to work, etc.

At wits end I hooked up a DMM and watched the voltage during cranking. It dipped under 8V! So I brought the battery back in and demanded they hook to a carbon pile. Sure enough, when asked for more than 100 amps one cell would short out, effectively making it a 10V (5 cell) battery. Luckily it was still under warranty, and the replacement has been fine so far (knock on wood).

Before that, when I drove the car more often, I would use the OEM battery, replacing it every 3 or so years. Never had a problem with it, but it was not great for sitting for long periods.

tmtalpey · Dec 27, 2016

TG said:
I'm pretty certain it has nothing to do with that software...

"Pretty certain"? So, it's understandable, but you also should understand why the dealer doesn't want to get into the middle of diagnosing your mod. Was this tune a softload, or was it a chip desolder/resolder job? Take it off the table, if you can.

However, I agree with everyone that you need to rule out a bad battery. Wishing and hoping it's fine will just lead you to more frustration. Test it properly, or just replace it. Be sure to check the connections and cables too by the way.

Oh, and never, never disconnect or reseat the ECM connectors with the battery online. The gremlins will come out in droves if you go there.

TG · Dec 27, 2016

@ Theshadow & Tmtalpey

No I have not replace it yet. But I agree with both of you.
My plan is to wait for the temperature to start dropping again and if/AND as soon as the symptoms comes back I will change the battery. This way I'll know for sure based on the subsequent result. If I do it now that the car starts I'll be doubting myself.

@ Tmtalpey
I fully understand their position and I appreciate you're pointing it out.

I don't mind at all they tell me that they don't want to touch the software and load anything that could create problem with the car. I'm not mad at the fact that they don't want to take any chances or be liable. I understand their position fully and respect that. I do think however that they are relying too much on software diagnostics to tell them what the problem is. When I asked if they had checked the battery they never answered me directly other than saying the car started fine, and that if it was the alternator the symptoms would be different.

My point is that they do the easy stuff and if a flag shows up they stop there. The fact that there is no code from their diagnostic with VIDA doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. I expect a good mechanic to do the proper mechanical testing as well as software diagnostic if the answer cannot be found in the computer (as it did not). But that's more work. To me it is too easy an answer to blame a third party item that came-up as a flag to possibly be the cause, rather then dig a little more in the mechanics of things based on the long time customer experience with the car and the customer advice.
They even mentioned an other customer in the past that had a tune or chip and they couldn't find the cause of the CEL (which I bet it was the O2 sensor CEL well documented here and is an easy fix if you know what it is)
If that software wasn't there - and I should have swapped it would I have known, but would have erased any potential codes - it is likely that they would have said to me that they can't find anything wrong and that I need to come back when the problem resurface... at $100 an hour of labor (which by the way they charged me) I think they should be more professional about it. But I'm not too surprised. The issue with upscale car dealers is that most of their work is about car under warranty. Long term car ownership isn't what they do most... That's just what I have concluded from having worked with them over the years. At $100 and hour, it's a bit sad really... They are the ones with the gizmos an indy has a hard time dealing with at twice the cost, and they work half the effort to satisfy a long time customer that wanted to put faith in their ability. I'm not mad at them. I'm just disappointed at the market practice. Now I just have to find a good indy instead...

By the way, it's a soft loader. I consider it a minimally invasive tune. It's from RicaTunning and honestly it has been on the car since June 2010. I consider that quite reliable and highly unlikely to be directly related to this sort of starting problems at this point in time. The car is over 11 yrs old. if I had to pick between a problem from a softloader installed 6 years ago, and the car's age (and aside from conventional wear items such as the battery as we talked about) I would be much more trusting in that it has something to do with wear. The question is what part, or parts?

tmtalpey · Dec 28, 2016

I'm with you on the dealer-approach being sometimes like this - if it isn't something obviously busted, they can sometimes rely too much on in-car diagnostics. Sometimes though even at such a dealer, there's one particular guy back there who actually knows what to do, and if you get the right service writer they'll let him or her actually do it. It can be rare.

Rica is a quality tune and if you aren't going stage 3 it won't be the sole cause for this type of issue. Still, software is stored in memory and memory can go bad, or bits can flip. So errors can creep into any car. They did with mine, and a dealer ECM reprogram fixed it. But, mine was a very obvious failure - immobilizer and hard fail to start. Still, it would start once, if I disconnected the battery and started without cycling the ignition. Enough to get it to the dealer and a connection to the mothership!

theshadow27 · Dec 28, 2016

I'll second Greg on this one - I have also had the RICA Stage 1 since 2010 and every single visit to the dealer is a fight to explain why I am not going to pay them $150 to re-flash it back to stock. Never had a problem with the tune, except that it probably contributed to a early TCV death. I just wish RICA could figure out how to correctly set the checksum so that it was completely invisible to VIDA.

I don't go to the dealer often, because of that and other reasons (PCV recall where they stripped the threads on the dipstick bolt so replaced it with a pop rivet and zip tie, etc...). If I do, I tell them the specific procedure that they are to perform, get a price in writing up front, and usually provide them the parts. I mark everything they are supposed to replace, ask for the old parts back, and verify the work was done before I pay. They have learned to deal with me, but it wasn't easy getting there...

Since getting an eBay DiCE, there are fewer and fewer reasons to go back there... Hands down the best $200 I've spent on the car.

TG · Dec 28, 2016

Today: Car sat outside for 2 hours while I was washing the other in our garage. Temperature dropped from 41 to 34°. About to pull it back in the garage. It barely started. CEL popped back after third cranking attempt.
Tomorrow: Moment of truth. I'll go get a new battery. We'll see what happens...

P0336 - Crankshaft position sensor A Circuit Range Performance

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TG

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