The New Polestar S60 and V60

IIHS · Nov 27, 2013

Here's just one example of what things look like outside of Volvoland. It's a typical "what should we buy?" post from a mother with a family and young children.

She has a large budget and is looking across a range of models to get what she values most: safety.

Note that she's informed enough to even mention a specific crash safety test she's been researching.

She's interested enough in safety to post at a car seat forum.

This should be Volvo's ideal clientele!

Dismiss her at your peril.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=252439

Thanks everyone. We went test driving today and drove:
Volvo XC60
Acura RLX
VW Passat
Honda Accord
Honda CRV
Subaru Forester
Subaru Outback

After all of our driving and a massive sunburn I think we have it narrowed down to a used 2012 Volvo XC with 2500 miles on it or a 2013 Subaru Outback. Both vehicles would cost about the same and they both get good crash test ratings. Does anyone have opinions about car seats in these vehicles? Other opinions about either one?

Note from the first post in the thread that the primary concern of the poster is *safety*. And note how her initial choices involved a range of vehicles from Honda, Subaru, VW, Acura, and Volvo. And then note how their test drives narrowed things down directly to Subaru vs Volvo.

Folks here can state Volvo only competes with MB, Audi, and BMW until they're blue in the face, but the truth on the ground is that the people who are actually buying cars regularly cross-shop luxury vehicles with non-luxury vehicles, and do so with impunity. And if a Volvo doesn't offer a convincing argument over, say, a Subaru, guess which she's going to go with?

The worst thing a Volvo representative, executive, or fan can do is imply that Volvo only needs to pay attention to the True Shoppers who only cross-shop with manufacturers Volvo reps, execs, or fans consider on par with Volvo. Because moms and dads like these are all over the country, and if you turn their money down too many times, you go out of business.

TrboBrik · Nov 27, 2013

IIHS said:
Here's just one example of what things look like outside of Volvoland. It's a typical "what should we buy?" post from a mother with a family and young children.

She has a large budget and is looking across a range of models to get what she values most: safety.

Note that she's informed enough to even mention a specific crash safety test she's been researching.

She's interested enough in safety to post at a car seat forum.

This should be Volvo's ideal clientele!

Dismiss her at your peril.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=252439

Note from the first post in the thread that the primary concern of the poster is *safety*. And note how her initial choices involved a range of vehicles from Honda, Subaru, VW, Acura, and Volvo. And then note how their test drives narrowed things down directly to Subaru vs Volvo.

Folks here can state Volvo only competes with MB, Audi, and BMW until they're blue in the face, but the truth on the ground is that the people who are actually buying cars regularly cross-shop luxury vehicles with non-luxury vehicles, and do so with impunity. And if a Volvo doesn't offer a convincing argument over, say, a Subaru, guess which she's going to go with?

The worst thing a Volvo representative, executive, or fan can do is imply that Volvo only needs to pay attention to the True Shoppers who only cross-shop with manufacturers Volvo reps, execs, or fans consider on par with Volvo. Because moms and dads like these are all over the country, and if you turn their money down too many times, you go out of business.

I understand where you are going with your argument, I really do. However this is a thread about the POLESTAR V60 and S60, therefore I don't see why anyone would cross shop a $55k fully loaded sport wagon with a Subaru. If anything they will compare the regular V60 with a Subaru so they could decide whether the luxury feel and (still) superior safety of the Volvo is worth the extra cost.

matt1122 · Nov 27, 2013

I'm feeling Rebel Blue may be my choice. I'm just wondering - is that actually Polestar blue in the photos? Because it looks like it perfectly matches the cars its next to in the shot where they're all lined up. That's the color I really want.

IIHS said:
Perhaps in your neck of the woods, but people in my area (snowy, icy winters) planning on using V60s to transport children will be comparing them to other AWD crossovers and wagons, and Subaru's been doing that well in the US for a while now.

Yeah, you're talking about the base model, though. This focus of this thread is the Polestar version.

GrecianVolvo · Nov 27, 2013

JPL Guy said:
Gotta prove it to me, first . . . .

You are on. Be patient for a couple of weeks.

GrecianVolvo · Nov 27, 2013

matt1122 said:
I'm feeling Rebel Blue may be my choice. I'm just wondering - is that actually Polestar blue in the photos? Because it looks like it perfectly matches the cars its next to in the shot where they're all lined up. That's the color I really want.
.

My personal opinion is that Rebel Blue or Ice White are simply the perfect colors for the V60. I would be torn, if I were buying one. I would probably end up with Rebel Blue but it would be close.

On the S60, I think either Rebel Blue, Ice White or Silver fit that car very well. For an S60, I would probably lean a little more toward the Ice White.

TrboBrik · Nov 27, 2013

JPL Guy said:
Gotta prove it to me, first . . . .

JPL, just for laughs,

What fuel economy numbers would it take for you to stop bashing Volvo for a week? (in the s60)

matt1122 · Nov 27, 2013

He's going to say something like "diesel ones."

TrboBrik · Nov 27, 2013

matt1122 said:
He's going to say something like "diesel ones."

Hahaha

Lets give him a chance, Matt

geokilla · Nov 27, 2013

GrecianVolvo said:
They are WAY off. Stay tuned and in a couple of weeks you will be totally surprised. Heck, it may make you regret you got a diesel and these engines burn regular gas...

Adrian-C30R said:
Grecian! As much as I agree with your comment, how many times do I have to tell you and TurboBrik NOT to be telling people to use regular grade gasoline on these cars!

Because EPA numbers are accurate... And regular 87 octane gasoline. :deadhorse:

JPL Guy · Nov 27, 2013

TrboBrik said:
JPL, just for laughs,

What fuel economy numbers would it take for you to stop bashing Volvo for a week? (in the s60)

To compete against the 2015 Audi A3 TDI sedan (at a mere $29k) my own personal threshold to consider the VEA would be a realistic 8 mpg better than the TDI, or 51 highway, 39 city, 45 combined.

Edit: Oh, and that's with 10% ethanol, no cheating on using non-ethanol-laced gas to get EPA numbers.

(we currently get 43 highway/ 37 to 38 combined on my wife's 5 year-old TDI). And that's only if the '01 S60 dies before VW, Tesla, or anybody else comes up with a reasonable-priced electric with a 200+ mile range for a reasonable price.

Edit II: Really, it's not "Bashing," think of it more as "customer feedback."

Edit III: New VW TDI motor for 2015 A3 sedan (being introduced first quarter of 2014) has up to 280 ft-lb torque; don'T know if US version of TDI will get this motor. http://blog.caranddriver.com/detailed-vw’s-new-2-0-liter-ea288-four-cylinder-tdi-diesel/

TrboBrik · Nov 27, 2013

JPL Guy said:
To compete against the 2015 Audi A3 TDI sedan (at a mere $29k) my own personal threshold to consider the VEA would be a realistic 8 mpg better than the TDI, or 51 highway, 39 city, 45 combined.

Edit: Oh, and that's with 10% ethanol, no cheating on using non-ethanol-laced gas to get EPA numbers.

(we currently get 43 highway/ 37 to 38 combined on my wife's 5 year-old TDI). And that's only if the '01 S60 dies before VW, Tesla, or anybody else comes up with a reasonable-priced electric with a 200+ mile range for a reasonable price.

Edit II: Really, it's not "Bashing," think of it more as "customer feedback."

Oh my... I hadn't realized you were so hopelessly unrealistic...

To compare the fuel economy of a $29k econobox volkswa... ehem, Audi to a midsize sedan that weighs as much as the S60 does is truly unfair. For a number of reasons.

1. Diesel. You can't compare the horrible noise those engines make to the refinement of a Volvo's quiet interior. You also can't compare the fuel economy if you are running on something that should automatically get you better fuel economy.
2. Size. The S60 is a larger car. It is also more comfortable than the A3 in my opinion. The S60 is also a lot heavier, therefore affecting fuel economy.
3. Safety. The S60 will not sacrifice size, its construction materials, or its safety to gain a few MPG's even though it could.

These cars are in different classes, you might as well compare the S60 to a 5 series or a Prius. Instead of trying to make Volvo something it is not/ something only a fraction (a JPL sized fraction

) wants it to be by comparing the Volvo to a car it is not directly competing with, how about focusing on the individual models or cars it is actually targeting within its own class?

Why don't you just be happy with your beloved A3 TDI since you seem to love it so much and allow the S60 to compete with the 3 series or the A4? I think everyone would be happy there. Maybe in the future you can criticize the V40 this way so it can be the car you desire.

geokilla · Nov 27, 2013

TrboBrik said:
1. Diesel. You can't compare the horrible noise those engines make to the refinement of a Volvo's quiet interior. You also can't compare the fuel economy if you are running on something that should automatically get you better fuel economy.

LOL time to debunk this BS from the Volvo salesman. You clearly haven't been near a modern diesel.

TrboBrik · Nov 27, 2013

geokilla said:
LOL time to debunk this BS from the Volvo salesman. You clearly haven't been near a modern diesel.

My dealership is tied to a VW and honda dealership, I drive the VWs all the time so I know what the diesels in those cars sound like, and even that sounds better than your BS, so it's time for some better 'debunking.' "Lmao"

geokilla · Nov 27, 2013

TrboBrik said:
My dealership is tied to a VW and honda dealership, I drive the VWs all the time so I know what the diesels in those cars sound like, and even that sounds better than your BS, so it's time for some better 'debunking.' "Lmao"

My cousin owns a MB GLK 250 diesel. Whisper quiet, except for the usual idle noises. How you like my BS?

TrboBrik · Nov 27, 2013

geokilla said:
My cousin owns a MB GLK 250 diesel. Whisper quiet, except for the usual idle noises. How you like my BS?

Completely astonished. Since your cousin's MB is quiet, all diesels must be quiet. No diesel in any car that is in production sounds bad, because your cousin has a quiet diesel, of course. Therefore me saying 'diesels sound terrible,' even as a general statement, is immediately debunked and classified as BS by your cousin's MB GLK 250 diesel, because all diesels are as quiet as a $40k Mercedes Benz. It all makes sense now.

Now, back to JPL wanting Volvos to be more like his A3 TDI

GrecianVolvo · Nov 27, 2013

JPL Guy said:
To compete against the 2015 Audi A3 TDI sedan (at a mere $29k) my own personal threshold to consider the VEA would be a realistic 8 mpg better than the TDI, or 51 highway, 39 city, 45 combined.

Edit: Oh, and that's with 10% ethanol, no cheating on using non-ethanol-laced gas to get EPA numbers.

(we currently get 43 highway/ 37 to 38 combined on my wife's 5 year-old TDI). And that's only if the '01 S60 dies before VW, Tesla, or anybody else comes up with a reasonable-priced electric with a 200+ mile range for a reasonable price.

Edit II: Really, it's not "Bashing," think of it more as "customer feedback."

Edit III: New VW TDI motor for 2015 A3 sedan (being introduced first quarter of 2014) has up to 280 ft-lb torque; don'T know if US version of TDI will get this motor. http://blog.caranddriver.com/detailed-vw’s-new-2-0-liter-ea288-four-cylinder-tdi-diesel/

JPL,

thank you for your valubale edit (based on a few inaccuracies and a high desire to bash something positive coming from the Volvo world) but here is a reply based on facts:

* The $29,900 price you quoted is wishful thinking; it is the starting price for the gasoline-powered 2.0L and it does not include the $895 destination charge. Furthermore, you can be assured that the A3 TDI will carry a hefty premium like the other Audi TDI cars do over their gasoline-powered stablemates; the A5 TDI carries a $5,600 premium while the A6 TDI carries a $10,000 premium. You decide whether or not the A3 TDI will be worth the extra $3,000 to $4,000 that it will certainly command

* The A3 TDI engine may be rated at 190 hp and 280 lbs/ft (the jury is out on this) but, still, the S60 T5 will have 240 hp and 258 lbs/ft of torque w/ an available 280 lbs/ft through overboost much like the 5-cyl T5 has. Projected 0-60 time for this car are not close to the new S60 T5 which will be 6.0 to 6.2 secs...

* The A3 TDI will get a combined 34 mpg (30 city and 42 hwy). 15,000 miles per year will use 441 diesel gallons (at $3.55/gallon) at a total annual fuel cost of $1,566. Let's assume that the new T5 will be rated (combined) at 30 mpg (and only 4 less in hwy than the TDI). That is a total of 500 gallons of regular gas (at 3.19/gallon, local Costco prices) the total annual fuel cost is $1,595 or TWO dollars and FORTY-TWO cents more per month than the A3...TDI.

And this is sort of fruitless as the A3 is not in the same class as the S60. I saw the car at the LA Auto Show and it is very pretty, a nice job and comeback by Audi over the previous Golf clown that was posing as an A3. This one is much better.

I know it is hard for some people to comprehend what these new engines are capable for but I have been telling you all along...they were in the...pipeline!

JPL Guy · Nov 27, 2013

TrboBrik said:
Oh my... I hadn't realized you were so hopelessly unrealistic...

To compare the fuel economy of a $29k econobox volkswa... ehem, Audi to a midsize sedan that weighs as much as the S60 does is truly unfair. For a number of reasons.

1. Diesel. You can't compare the horrible noise those engines make to the refinement of a Volvo's quiet interior. You also can't compare the fuel economy if you are running on something that should automatically get you better fuel economy.
2. Size. The S60 is a larger car. It is also more comfortable than the A3 in my opinion. The S60 is also a lot heavier, therefore affecting fuel economy.
3. Safety. The S60 will not sacrifice size, its construction materials, or its safety to gain a few MPG's even though it could.

These cars are in different classes, you might as well compare the S60 to a 5 series or a Prius. Instead of trying to make Volvo something it is not/ something only a fraction (a JPL sized fraction ) wants it to be by comparing the Volvo to a car it is not directly competing with, how about focusing on the individual models or cars it is actually targeting within its own class?

Why don't you just be happy with your beloved A3 TDI since you seem to love it so much and allow the S60 to compete with the 3 series or the A4? I think everyone would be happy there. Maybe in the future you can criticize the V40 this way so it can be the car you desire.

Uh, dude, you asked a question. I merely answered. Remember the old saying: Don't ask a question if you're not prepared to hear the answer.

I only mention the A3 because it popped up in a 5 second Google search I ran before I posted the answer. The A3 TDI will have only 'only' 190 hp and 280 ft-lb of torque with mpg numbers ostensibly better than current TDIs (they haven't released their numbers yet, either). So expecting something better than I get right now doesn't seem unreasonable. The S/V60 VEA FWD has 240 hp and 260 ft-lb, so that seems close.

And I'm sorry that 51 mpg is "unrealistic" for you, but some cars currently in production are in the 95 mpge class, and surely the electrified VEAs will get upwards of 50 or more. So I don't see it as "unrealistic" at all.

But this thread is about Polestar, so let's not pop the bubble on the guys who are drooling over that, shall we?

Adrian-C30R · Nov 27, 2013

JPL Guy said:
To compete against the 2015 Audi A3 TDI sedan (at a mere $29k) my own personal threshold to consider the VEA would be a realistic 8 mpg better than the TDI, or 51 highway, 39 city, 45 combined.

Edit: Oh, and that's with 10% ethanol, no cheating on using non-ethanol-laced gas to get EPA numbers.

(we currently get 43 highway/ 37 to 38 combined on my wife's 5 year-old TDI). And that's only if the '01 S60 dies before VW, Tesla, or anybody else comes up with a reasonable-priced electric with a 200+ mile range for a reasonable price.

Edit II: Really, it's not "Bashing," think of it more as "customer feedback."

Edit III: New VW TDI motor for 2015 A3 sedan (being introduced first quarter of 2014) has up to 280 ft-lb torque; don'T know if US version of TDI will get this motor. http://blog.caranddriver.com/detailed-vw’s-new-2-0-liter-ea288-four-cylinder-tdi-diesel/

So why does the S60 have to get 8 better MPGs when it's a bigger, faster, more refined car with a way wider powerband? Are the other benefits not worth it, or what? And yes, we all know that diesels have massive torque numbers, but that's just as useless as 1980's-era turbo lag when diesels only maintain their power and torque curves for 1-2K RPMs and then suddenly dive off into a pit of nothingness.

Adrian-C30R · Nov 27, 2013

JPL Guy said:
But this thread is about Polestar, so let's not pop the bubble on the guys who are drooling over that, shall we?

And yet, it seemingly always happens....:facepalm:

Adrian-C30R · Nov 27, 2013

GrecianVolvo said:
JPL,

thank you for your valubale edit (based on a few inaccuracies and a high desire to bash something positive coming from the Volvo world) but here is a reply based on facts:

* The $29,900 price you quoted is wishful thinking; it is the starting price for the gasoline-powered 2.0L and it does not include the $895 destination charge. Furthermore, you can be assured that the A3 TDI will carry a hefty premium like the other Audi TDI cars do over their gasoline-powered stablemates; the A5 TDI carries a $5,600 premium while the A6 TDI carries a $10,000 premium. You decide whether or not the A3 TDI will be worth the extra $3,000 to $4,000 that it will certainly command

* The A3 TDI engine may be rated at 190 hp and 280 lbs/ft (the jury is out on this) but, still, the S60 T5 will have 240 hp and 258 lbs/ft of torque w/ an available 280 lbs/ft through overboost much like the 5-cyl T5 has. Projected 0-60 time for this car are not close to the new S60 T5 which will be 6.0 to 6.2 secs...

* The A3 TDI will get a combined 34 mpg (30 city and 42 hwy). 15,000 miles per year will use 441 diesel gallons (at $3.55/gallon) at a total annual fuel cost of $1,566. Let's assume that the new T5 will be rated (combined) at 30 mpg (and only 4 less in hwy than the TDI). That is a total of 500 gallons of regular gas (at 3.19/gallon, local Costco prices) the total annual fuel cost is $1,595 or TWO dollars and FORTY-TWO cents more per month than the A3...TDI.

And this is sort of fruitless as the A3 is not in the same class as the S60. I saw the car at the LA Auto Show and it is very pretty, a nice job and comeback by Audi over the previous Golf clown that was posing as an A3. This one is much better.

I know it is hard for some people to comprehend what these new engines are capable for but I have been telling you all along...they were in the...pipeline!

Let's also not forget about the ever, important and hardly inexpensive Urea tank that must be refilled every 10,000 miles or so. Clearly, that outweighs the costs alone. And not to mention the fact that a gasoline engine will always be quieter, sound nicer, rev higher, have a smoother power band, have a smoother torque band, and be at least 100 pounds lighter than a similar sized diesel one. But nooooo, some people just bang on about diesels like they are some kind of godsend....

The New Polestar S60 and V60

IIHS

TrboBrik

matt1122

GrecianVolvo

GrecianVolvo

TrboBrik

matt1122

TrboBrik

geokilla

JPL Guy

TrboBrik

geokilla

TrboBrik

geokilla

TrboBrik

GrecianVolvo

JPL Guy

Adrian-C30R

Adrian-C30R

Adrian-C30R

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