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New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R.

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George@Swedespeed

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
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There's no denying the last few years have been tough on Volvo and as such, performance cars haven't exactly been what you'd call a priority. Ford Motor Company's move to offload its European portfolio and the admission that its Swedish marque was on the block coupled with an economic downturn left Gothenburg in a precarious position where even mainstream product development was delayed. Stalwarts such as the XC90 have gone long in the tooth by today's industry production cycle standards. R cars, momentarily gone from the lineup, have been replaced by "R design" optics packages that look the part though don't offer any real performance gains. As a result, Volvo's enthusiast ownership has shrunken. Given the context, we were encouraged recently when Volvo Cars North America boss Doug Speck suggested there could be a return of R-branded cars in addition to the already well known intention of adding diesel and hybrid models.

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#2 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

Nice write up and renderings, George. Your choice of mesh leaves something to be desired in my mind, though. LOL.

I think you hit it right on the head when you said this:

Quote, originally posted by George@Swedespeed »
It's not that we didn't love the P2 R cars, but we see that they were too aggressive a step for a brand where high-performance is a lower priority than with the Germans. However, we think the first R-cars may have been onto something - mildly hotter cars that are both enough to coax mainstream customers with a little bit of flair and provide a solid foundation for the more hardcore who will modify and upgrade anything to their needs anyway. As icons like the BMW M3 move up market to the even more extreme, medium-level performers such as the repositioned Audi S4 and the turbocharged BMW 335i are enjoying a renaissance by offering just enough performance at a much more attractive price.

I totally agree with this sentiment.

Volvo's next R should be based on the new S60. IMO, it should have:

* 4 piston (minimum) brakes.

* Torque vectoring AWD with max nominal split 60% Front / 40% rear (I'm being a realist here)

* 6 speed manual transmission w/ DSG (powershift) as an option. No slushbox.

* Mildly boosted T6 engine to about 340-350 HP. Make it real, all weather HP without the need for underperforming intercoolers.

* Subtle styling - R Design package plus one.

* Subtle interior trim - R Design package plus one.

* OPTIONAL adjustable suspension (if any), certainly not standard.

To me, none of this goes against the Volvo core values. And none of it is earth-shattering tech.

The target of the S60R should be the 335i and S4, not the M3 or RS4.

This could easily spill over to C30's and S40's - hi-po turbo 4's anyone?

Only one question, hardware wise remains: is the new S60 a suitable platform for performance upgrades? The P2 marginally was.

Think of it this way. There's a big jump between a 335i and an M3 in price, looks, performance.

There's a smaller jump between an A5 3.2 S-Line and an S5.

Volvo's jump between the S60 T6 AWD and S60 R should be the same if not less.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »
Nice write up and renderings, George. Your choice of mesh leaves something to be desired in my mind, though. LOL.

It's lifted from the facelifted C30 R-design. I went with what I know they're using and not necessarily what I'd do if I were Peter Horbury.

Quote »
Only one question, hardware wise remains: is the new S60 a suitable platform for performance upgrades? The P2 marginally was.

We only really mentioned it in passing in the article, but it's worth mentioning. Haldex's latest AWD system is the XWD more commonly credited to Saab because they're using the XWD name as well as the hardware. The idea behind it is a right-to-left rear hydraulic clutch operated differential that is thus computer controlled just like Haldex's front to rear split. Acura really pioneered these sorts of physics with their SH-AWD, then Saab with the Turbo X and now Audi is offering a similar setup paired with Torsen in the S4. The results with the correct software tuning are very impressive.

I've logged time in the Turbo X and the new S4. The Saab is heavy, low on torque and not terribly aggressively tuned, and in my opinion Audi has the better final setup... not because of torsen though and it should apply to Haldex.

Essentially you control torque to the outer rear wheel to push the car (induce oversteer) and minimize understeer. As a safety feature Audi describes it as doing essentially the same thing as ESP but doing it with throttle rather than with brakes. Dial in even more 'push' and you can introduce throttle on oversteer and controlled drifting out of a front-drive based car.

The S4 isn't exactly crazy hp either, but on a track and especially in the wet (I've driven it in both conditions, and on track in the wet), it is really noticeable. Stability is obvious and put it in a more sporting setting or even ESP off and you can really be a hooligan. I think adding this to the S60 would really raise its attractiveness to performance buyers while also giving Volvo one more very practical safety feature that's a bit less big brother than City Safety.
 
#6 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

Nice write-up and the renderation looks great (except the tiny brakes).
...I'd add a little OEM body-kit to it though.

When I read the article I go goose bumps. However, after reading it I realized that the opinion represents only a minority of Volvo owners. I can't imagine Volvo spending $ on an R development especially with what's going on with their current situation.

Finally, if I had the $ to spend on a new performance sedan I'd buy an Audi S4
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (Needsdecaf)

I tried to mimic Cosmic White. Volvo had an XC60 in Cosmic with graphite wheels at the Detroit Auto Show and the same setup was used in CAR magazine when Georg Kacher compared XC60 with the Q5 and GLK. The look was AMAZING. That sort of grayish, metallic off-white is really hot right now.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (tomedkaz)

Quote, originally posted by tomedkaz »
Nice write-up and the renderation looks great (except the tiny brakes).
...I'd add a little OEM body-kit to it though.

When I read the article I go goose bumps. However, after reading it I realized that the opinion represents only a minority of Volvo owners. I can't imagine Volvo spending $ on an R development especially with what's going on with their current situation.

Finally, if I had the $ to spend on a new performance sedan I'd buy an Audi S4

They **could** do it without XWD. I'd be surprised if they weren't already considering XWD anyway given that they're a Haldex customer, Haldex is probably trying to find more companies to use its latest-greatest, and it really is an added safety level.

However, I think they could pull it off credibly even if they limited themselves to a slight power bump from T6, federalization of a manual transmission and an R-design package which are all probably in the works already minus the hotter ECU and federalization of the trans.
 
#9 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

Quote, originally posted by George@Swedespeed »


We only really mentioned it in passing in the article, but it's worth mentioning. Haldex's latest AWD system is the XWD more commonly credited to Saab because they're using the XWD name as well as the hardware. The idea behind it is a right-to-left rear hydraulic clutch operated differential that is thus computer controlled just like Haldex's front to rear split. Acura really pioneered these sorts of physics with their SH-AWD, then Saab with the Turbo X and now Audi is offering a similar setup paired with Torsen in the S4. The results with the correct software tuning are very impressive.

I've logged time in the Turbo X and the new S4. The Saab is heavy, low on torque and not terribly aggressively tuned, and in my opinion Audi has the better final setup... not because of torsen though and it should apply to Haldex.

Essentially you control torque to the outer rear wheel to push the car (induce oversteer) and minimize understeer. As a safety feature Audi describes it as doing essentially the same thing as ESP but doing it with throttle rather than with brakes. Dial in even more 'push' and you can introduce throttle on oversteer and controlled drifting out of a front-drive based car.

The S4 isn't exactly crazy hp either, but on a track and especially in the wet (I've driven it in both conditions, and on track in the wet), it is really noticeable. Stability is obvious and put it in a more sporting setting or even ESP off and you can really be a hooligan. I think adding this to the S60 would really raise its attractiveness to performance buyers while also giving Volvo one more very practical safety feature that's a bit less big brother than City Safety.

Very true, but not what I was getting at. I'm a believer in torque vectoring AWD (branded SHAWD in this case!). It's really an awesome system on our 2007 MDX.

My concern is the platform / suspension itself. The P2 R's had a number of issues resulting from the R upgrade. Terrible turning radius due to the wheel offset needed to clear the brakes. Rear end hop from screwy geometry changes when lowered and under high g loads. Steering racks which would groan under load and fail when pushed to the R's limits. And terrible ride quality with the suspension setup (springs too soft, too much damping, not enough anti-roll).

I know that the new S60 is really gunning for the A4. Hopefully it's not at it's limits doing so.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (Needsdecaf)

Quote, originally posted by Needsdecaf »


Very true, but not what I was getting at. I'm a believer in torque vectoring AWD (branded SHAWD in this case!). It's really an awesome system on our 2007 MDX.

My concern is the platform / suspension itself. The P2 R's had a number of issues resulting from the R upgrade. Terrible turning radius due to the wheel offset needed to clear the brakes. Rear end hop from screwy geometry changes when lowered and under high g loads. Steering racks which would groan under load and fail when pushed to the R's limits. And terrible ride quality with the suspension setup (springs too soft, too much damping, not enough anti-roll).

I know that the new S60 is really gunning for the A4. Hopefully it's not at it's limits doing so.

Gotcha. To that end I don't know. I guess time will tell.
 
#11 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

WOW I can't believe it's back!
Image


http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Image
Image
(cheers)
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (USAF 2010 T5)

I hate to break it to you but you better read the article. It's not back. It's just a proposal from us to Volvo. Sorry. But hey, maybe they're listening.
 
#13 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

Quote, originally posted by George@Swedespeed »
I hate to break it to you but you better read the article. It's not back. It's just a proposal from us to Volvo. Sorry. But hey, maybe they're listening.

Whatever you all did on this project, you did it right http://********************/smile/emthup.gif . R or not, the wheels, color, everything looks 100x better than what Volvo used in its national PR. If that's what the next R will look like, I'm game.
 
#14 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

Quote, originally posted by George@Swedespeed »


It's lifted from the facelifted C30 R-design. I went with what I know they're using and not necessarily what I'd do if I were Peter Horbury.

Touche. So I guess Volvo is the one with the questionable choice in mesh. LOL.
 
#15 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

The article was interesting. I really do hope for an R to return to the lineup.
I did a little of my own photoshop render of what i think the s60R will look like. Bigger wheels and upgraded spoiler.
Image
 
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#16 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

It's pretty neat. I really like what you've done with the badges!
Image
http://********************/smile/emthup.gif
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (vvmasterdrfan)

Quote, originally posted by vvmasterdrfan »
The article was interesting. I really do hope for an R to return to the lineup.
I did a little of my own photoshop render of what i think the s60R will look like. Bigger wheels and upgraded spoiler.
Image

This is a very cool render. It's more aggressive, and thus more costly to produce but it shows how aggressive the new S60 could be taken. If not Volvo, maybe there's more business case for aftermarket brands who are savvy with body kits such as Evolve/Elevate or Heico.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (Helmut Ranff)

Quote, originally posted by Helmut Ranff »
Very nice George. You are good at this sort of thing at a very high level http://********************/smile/emthup.gif

Thanks!
Image
 
#20 ·
Re: New S60 + Executive Comments on R. Swedespeed Makes Case for New Volvo S60R. (George@Swedespeed)

How about one in Ice White?
 
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